yes sir... I hear it! :) and it sounds better than it did 6 months ago. I'm getting there... Don't worry... |
Bwhite...a six month old echo can be heard. Do you hear it?
Teres 265, teres, teres...
Koetsu Urushi, urushi, urushi...
:0) |
Hi Tom, I've listened to numerous tables at local dealers and have always been disappointed -- mostly because of the dealers poor room/system, etc. So I never comment on those experiences publicly.
I have only had the SME20, Linn, Oracle at my personal disposal which is why I only comment on those tables.
I've often considered borrowing tables from the dealer but.. as much of an analog fanatic as I am, I still do not feel confident with all the set-up required for various table/arm/cartridge combos.
I guess I'll have to take your advice, bite the bullet and get a Teres or finish my at least one of my projects. It will be very interesting to hear what it does that the Linn / SME doesn't do -- or does too much of.
To simplify what I said about the BiDat, it has opened a door where now, I can honestly say there are many recordings which will sound better on digital vs. analog whreas prior to the Bidat, I felt that nothing sounded better in digital - except certain classical pieces.
Regardless of which table I end up with, having digital which performs somewhere in-between the SME and the Linn(its like the SME with life, and the Linn with precision) is truly remarkable for a $600 device. |
Bryan, I know you are an analog lover. That is why I am trying to make suggestions. I do believe that you can find a table to your liking that will be at a higher level. There is something out there that will "float your boat" in all the respects you desire. Of course, I can't tell you what it is, because you have to find the one you like. I'm only trying to point out some possible directions to look in. |
Tom, Not sure if I agree wholeheartedly with the SME reputation you speak of. I usually associate the term analytical to mean excessive detail and I don't think that's the case with the SME20.
I wouldn't call the SME "overly dry" either. So, what do you mean by "overly dry"?? The SME20 has NO grain. Do you perhaps mean dry in the context that it's bass is lean or overdampened? Or do you mean it has a short reverberation time? In any case, the SME20 doesn't seem to exhibit any of those reputed qualities - except perhaps for the bass being ever-so-slightly lean but not enough to consider the table dry.
Like I said earlier, the SME20 is neutral. The table plays the facts accurately and with precision (that does not mean analytical) - nothing seems to be accentuated at all. The table exhibits a neutral tone, or an absence of added color.
That said, I would agree there are more "musical" toe-tapping - lets get up and boogie - type tables around and I think the Linn is a pretty good representation of that type of table.
Perhaps that Teres project of mine will introduce me to a new flavor - that of a completely unsuspended, high mass table. Interesting. Perhaps musical and refined? Hmmm...
Remember, you've got a guy here who "used" to be a digital maniac and gave it all up as soon as he heard analog. After that moment, I couldn't bare to listen to any CDs whatsoever, sold my digital & I became an analog fanatic.
So... I'm sorry for mentioning that digital BiDat thingy - I certainly don't want to scare any of the other analog fanatics on Audiogon. :) |
Bryan, the SME products have a reputation for being detailed, but overly dry and analytical. You should try something a little more musical to make your comparisons. |
Twl, The interesting thing is that I have been listening to an SME20 lately which is needless to say, "higher up the scale". The SME is very precise & solid sounding and makes the Linn sound unrefined and almost as if its bouncing out of control... yet there are certain qualities about the Linn that are more fun and to some extent more natural with certain types of music. This is not to discount the SME in any way other than to say that it itself is so controled that its difficult for me to suggest that it is natural - nothing in this world (especially live music) is as precise and controled or utterly "ordinary sounding" as the SME20. Yet I believe from an audiophile perspective, somehow the SME20 is better by leaps and bounds than the Linn. Weird.
So needless to say, I am well aware that there are better tables than the Linn and I think my point was that a simple Linn/Shelter 901 was better in all regards than any other digital player. That is why I sold all my digital and went 100% analog - just like you.
You are correct, I am a platter, bearing and motor kit away from a Teres and I am considering doing that. I've even started a new (improved) design over my first Teres.
So I do plan to keep analog because regardless of the table, it *IS* better than digital but the margin of improvement has been cut massively by the modified BiDat.
I do realize that a better table could potentially widen that gap between the BiDat and analog -- but I am having a tough time attaching a dollar figure to that improvement. I would have to go above and beyond the SME20 to look for these gains. And at that point >$10K I begin to ask myself whether or not playing records is worth it. Even at <$10K, I wonder if the differences are worth it. Right now, if I could attach a dollar value to the differences I hear between the BiDat and the Linn or BiDat and SME, I would pay maybe $1000 - $2000 to get that improvement in a system but the gains are not significant enough to justify much more. |
Bwhite, you need to try some analog that is a little higher up the scale. Perhaps its time to re-discover that Teres project lurking in your garage. I, as you know, have spent 10 years with an LP12, and compared it to many Oracles, and am quite aware of their performance levels. The Teres 245 is a "whole 'nuther smoke" entirely. And there are tables that do even better than my Teres. That is when you will see the gap widen again, between analog and digital.
That said, I'm glad that you have discovered an improvement so profound as this BiDat. I think that Ed knows his stuff.
You're just a platter, bearing and motor kit away from a major improvement. You could have the distinction of having the first "hairy" Teres. :^) - (inside joke)
I think that when you start playing, you won't even notice anything but the sound. If you had something like a Verdier or a Walker or something like that, then I wouldn't make the suggestion, but I am keenly aware of how much difference there is between an LP12 or Oracle, and a Teres. |
Hi Rx6man - thank you very much I appreciate the kind words. Digital IS a big issue and right now I am personally going through sort of a revelation. I'll tell you about it but first I have to explain where I am coming from - as well as where I've been lately.
Pardon me while I ramble...
About 9 months ago, after trying almost every CD player I could get my hands on, I completely left digital in the dust (sold all digital gear) after I got my first analog rig - a simple Linn LP12.
Needless to say, the Linn gave me everything I hoped I would get from my digital devices & it took only seconds to realize that my perception of what "analog like" meant was way off base. Warmth is often considered to be a trait that makes a digital device seem "analog-like" but this is not necessarily true. A Shelter 901 on the Linn LP12 with a good clean recording will sound more high rez than either of the new High Resolution formats. Lets just say that after hearing the Linn in my system, it became immediately evident that digital devices were missing so much more than just "warmth". Analog has a certain completeness to it whereas everything is there... the entire venue... and CD seems to loose that information.
In retrospect, my earlier problems with digital were primarily a result of my comparing digital devices to digital devices. It became like Baskin Robbins, 31 flavors of digital... which one do I like today? Each have merit but.. none truly matched analog in any way whatsoever.
Then, I stumbled across the Meitner BiDat which is a cheap old DAC designed by Ed Meitner who is responsible for much of the technology behind SACD. BiDats have been around for a while and there are many iterations of the units since they have been modified since their inception. Today, these units are being supported and modified by John Wright. John's latest mods offer a complete transformation of the Bidat. John has taken the good, bad and the ugly mods of the past and refined these to produce a set of modifications which make the BiDat a world class DAC. John even incorporated some crazy, witch doctor type tweaks like black fingernail polish painted on some of the chips. Whatever works I guess.
The Bidat give you a sense of completeness and I do not know how or why, it just does. This is not something I can say for any other CD player I've ever tried. The BiDat doesn't have a flavor per se' it just plays music and to someone with ears that are used to the latest whiz-bang sonic signature, that lack of flavor in the BiDat may send you walking the other way. But.. for good listeners who are familiar with what I mean when I say COMPLETENESS and NATURAL SOUNDING, the BiDat is the answer.
Well that's where I am now. I have a simple BiDat which has been modified by John Wright. I am still tweaking with cables and trying to find a great reliable transport. An EAD T7000 I purchased recently arrived DOA from Canada so.. I'm still hunting for a good transport. Right now I am using a Sony S7000 DVD player and it seems to be an "okay" transport.. but I need better.
That said, the BiDat is SO close to vinyl it has turned my listening preference back to CD.
I've compared the BiDat to Linn, Oracle and SME20 turntables and the BiDat (strangely) competes with them all such that it becomes more a matter of vanity if I or my friends even keep our turntables.
The one weak spot of the BiDat seems to be with LARGE scale music - Mahler, for instance. The BiDat does not capture the scale at all it shrinks the venue and seems to compress that which should be enormous into a very tight and well defined, and not too dynamic space.
My potential solution for this is to run an SACD player as a transport (SA-14 Marantz) with the digital out going to the BiDat and Analog out going to the preamp. In my experience SACD seems to capture that largeness of scale, dynamic slam and impact better than CD and it certainly quieter than vinyl.
So perhaps the solution is - SACD transport + Sweet DAC. |
Hi,
As a dealer we run into this all of the time. There is no doubt that room acoustics/components/speakers and their interactions certainly play a role. We've found though that most of the difficulty lies in the inherent problems in cable designs limiting the system's performance. That's why we have chosen Sahuaro Audio cables to finally solve this problem to our customer's delight. Sahuaro is a breakthrough product, based on "physics" rather then the traditional "electrical engineering" concepts, that allows components/speakers to reach their full potential. Although we represent many component and speaker lines we suggest starting with Sahuaro first. It will provide that natural and emotionally involving ultimate performance that we are all searching for and save you money in the long run. You might just find that your system is really every bit as good as you had hoped it would be.
Enjoy!
audiolon.com |
Znak_m, good to hear that you are pleased.
Per my original post near the top, I have found that the amplifier is the most critical component for so many sonic areas including 'involvement'.
Only because some to many amplifiers have some to many deficiencies that some to many simply overlook or are unaware of.
-IMO |
I am the original poster and I'd like to update you all on how things worked out becasue I have made a lot of changes. I have finally gotten the Revels to sound great. I still have the Hovland and I took BWhite's advice and kept the EAD transport. I bought an Audiomeca Ekianthus (also BWhite's suggestion) and that helped a lot. Then added Cardas Golden Cross speaker cables and Neutral Reference interconnects, which got things smoother. Traded the MFA amps and the Proceed amp for Bruce Moore Custom 225 monoblocks and that made the greatest difference. Now I can finally play the Revels as loud as they should be without fatigue, but by the same token I can play them at lower levels and not feel deprived. Vocals are now fantastic although perhaps not as great as on the Quad ESL 63/Gradient subwoofer combo I also bought but am thinking about selling. The Quads on many recordings are more intitmate (e.g., real sounding; timbres, trasnperency, liquidity, etc.) than anything I have ever heard, but then on some recordings they simply can't match the dynamism of the Revels. I have also experimented with a REL sub with the Revels which seems to work well, but I haven't had one long-term enough yet to tell if I really want it, or whether what I'm hearing is simply novelty.
In any event, I really appreciate everyone's help. |
Bwhite, I don't mean to take this thread off track but I can say one thing, I've talked to you before on this digital issue and you sure know your stuff on good sound, regardless of $$. I really enjoy your "reviews" !! ...Pat |
I know why! All (most) are Stereophile recommended components. Listen before you buy! |
Studios must not be very good. I've been to two Revel dealers. When I tell them I own B&W they won't even let me listen to Revel. Waste of their time I guess. |
I know this thread is very old, butI also had some studios that I bought as store demos. They had hundreds of hours on them. I tried MANY amps, MANY pre amps, and even ran a Cary 306/200 direct to the amp. I tried a Levinson 383 integrated, TERRIBLE. COld, thin, fatigue. I tried a pass labs pre, 300watt powergouse amps and nothing helped. I then bought Acoustic Zen cables, still did nothing. I had $20k in the system and it sounded like CRAP. I then hooked up a Cary V12i tube amp and they came alive, but still not enough for me to keep them. I never did like the Studios and believe me I TRIED! I ende dup with a pair of Avantgarde Unos whihc I loved for a year, then just sold those for some Sonus Faber Guarneris.
BTW, I recently heard some Studios with Mcintosh. (352 amp, 2200 pre) and it was awesome. Nice full sound. Pucnchy, dynamic and not thin and brittle.
BUT My little Sonus faber Signums (used $1400) smoked the revel Studios with imaging, soundstage, midrange naturalness...everything but bass. BUT the little Signums fill my 3 car garage room with bass anyway. Just not deep pounding bass.
The Guarneris are a lifetime "keeper" speaker, andthose can be found occasionaly for $5k
The Studios just did not really do it for me. They look cool, and have a very clear accurate sound. Just not very musical to my ears! |
Cables are one of the best known cures for audiophilia nervosa, they act directly on the mind of the listener, usually without affecting in any way, shape or form the signal that passes through them. A significant achievement in sound reproduction, right up there with the invention of the phonograph by Berliner. Now if those same cables get cooked or better yet cryoed, well my oh my you are in for the psychoactive treat of a lifetime. Stop dwelling on imaginary faults with systems and buy records to enjoy them. Remember what the dormouse said, feed your head, feed your head. |
Hi I wonder if you are starting to get audio hyper sensitivity. This usually happens when we change our equipt.a lot. We start to try to hear from pocket to ear and you are now in the area of huge dollars compaired to the returns. If you do anything with your system start with better quality cables. Start putting in cables that treat the thing you dislike the most. Eg. to thin sounding or to fat or over analitical. If you look at your system with the attidude of my [SPEAKERS] either like what I add or dont you won't go too far wrong. Start with one piece at a time and please let it break in first. Also if you have a local person that cooks cables get that done first. |
if the old EAD T7000 isn't reliable and isn't available, what then?
The new C2 and C4 don't require the same kind of power...that is one of the new characteristics of the new line. As I said I heard them first on a $1000 intergrated 30w EL34s...marvelous.
cd |
BbTuna - the EAD is hard to find. As I stated in the post above, I cannot find one myself. I think the reason why the EAD T7000 is so good is that it was completely overbuilt since it was a first generation Laser Disk Player. Newer models are crap by comparison and have none of the sonic virtues of the old T7000. EAD will try to convince you otherwise but they are flat out lieing.
Given the EAD-T7000's performance (when it works) is so far superior to other more expensive transports, I'd have to say it would fit most anyones listening preference when paired with the right DAC.
As for Audiomeca/Audio Note, I like 'em both but my taste is pretty expensive on the AudioNote side. Every step up the ladder gives you a tremendous increase in performance. The 3.1x Audio Note is what *I'd* shoot for as a starter but the 2's and 1's are not bad.
The Enkianthus by Audiomeca is outstanding as well but isn't everyones cup-of tea. Its a very, relaxed sound with less dynamics than say an Electrocompaniet or Audio Aero based machine. The Audiomeca astonishes you with seduction while the others seem to get similar results with a slap in the face (EC). Perhaps I am being a little too harsh saying the EC is a slap in the face but I wanted to paint the contrast between the two DAC's.
Even with a Krell HTS (home theater processor) used as a DAC, the EAD sounds at par with ANY one box player.
As for speakers, a close friend of mine is a Dynaudio Maniac. He has owned all the Confidence series speakers (earlier C3 and C5's) but has upgraded to the Consequence. This is truly an amazing speaker and I am sure (having not listened to the C2 or C4's yet) that they try very hard to reproduce what the Consequence does. In the grand scale of things, if you can afford big amps to power the Dyn's, it would be a revelation for you to bypass the newer C2's and C4's and jump back in time to a pair of Consequence - which was the Dynaudio flagship prior to the 90K Evidence. |
Kana, The EAD T7000 is old and flakey making it a hassle to use. The drawer on most T7000's closes before you can get the cd in the tray. So.... when using you have to hold the drawer with your left hand (as it pulls against you) and drop the CD with your right. While this problem is common, it cannot be fixed as EAD is not much of a company anymore and philips does not make the same mechanisim any longer.
This is why I recommend folks try the Theta Data (not the BASIC) because it is in essence the same as the T7000 and is still supported by Theta.
I haven't been able to find a good used Theta or an EAD and that's why I don't use it. |
charles, try to swing the Supra amps, maybe get package deal. Jud Barber is an old friend of mine at Joule, great guy and I have his pre, but the amps are different. The amps are more thin than the pre's. I haven't heard the Stargate, but would be surprised if sound of those amps are that much off what I've heard earlier. Since getting TAS attention, not the value as when they started, but still good stuff, and, again, Jud, like Mick, is a class act. I just think the Supra's are a hell of a lot for the money - you are essentially getting the $15K LAMM's super customized. That said, you can't go wrong with Jud or his products. |
Asa,
Thanks for the response. I have checked out the Supratek Pre and Amp. The Pre is on my list of purchases. I have thought about the Amps...my only hesitation is that
1. I haven't heard them but...I haven't heard the Stargate either so that would not keep me ultimately from buying and
2. I can get the Stargates for under 3k and the Supratek would have to be purchased full retail since they are never found used and I don't have any connections.
If I can swing it, I would prefer the Supra monos (4 6C33 each). Anyway, great feedback, thanks.
charles |
Btuna, Supratek has some LAMM look alike amps for @ $5K which is a steal - a lot for your $. Take a look on their site. Havene't heard them myself, but worth consideration given pre's performance.
Let's see, Audiomecca/EAD with JL Mini/REL, Supratek electronics...sounds delicious. |
bwhite or anyone,
I have spent the last 20 min in frustration looking for some place online where I could check out the EAD gear (including pricing) and have come up empty...can anyone help?
Bwhite, when you talk about liking the EAD, are you aiming at the T-7000? I thought I picked up in my travel around the www that there is a MKII and MKIII version? Are these the latest, do you recommend one over the other? Ya know, basically, tell me everything ya know. :)
Also on the Audiomecca (which I have no problem finding infor on), you said OR Audio Note...Which Audio Note do you mean, the line is quite large (and can get expensive)?
I am nearing some significant changes in my system which I have been thinking about and looking into for nearly a year. I am on the verge of having pretty much all the cash flow I would want (10k - 20k) with which I am going to build a system. If I can save in the digital front end, and get better sound, YEA. I have had my mind focused on the EMC-1...I was tempted by Audiomecca (too expensive but aesthetically (sp) just what I want)...the Capitol is way to high and is ugly...IMHO.
After owning and hearing all kinds of speakers I always gravitate back to JM Lab. So I have been debating basically between the Micro and the Mini with plans to add a REL sub someday out. I have owned the Mini's before and regrettably sold them. The difference between these two is almost imperceptible so I have a hard time justifying the difference. With the new Utopia line looming both of these are a better than ever value.
I recently heard the new Dynaudio C2s and was blown away. That was the most gripping experience I have had for quite sometime (first time I heard them it was on a 1k Consonance Integrated). I lean toward the "warmth" musicality of the Utopia line but am always impressed with the detail and purity of lines like Kharma (owned the Cerm 2). Do you, bwhite, or anyone else know anything about the C2 characteristic over a longer period of time?
Bwhite, anyway, what I am getting at is to give you an brief idea of my listening bias so you can tell me if you think the EAD/Audiomecca front end would match well.
[side note: I have not decided about amps though I am drawn to the Joule Stargate because I fell in love with Lamm's use of the 6C33 tube (ML1) and hoped that the stargate might lean in that direction. I have learned to love tubes but I like bottom end too and so I vasilate between which I will miss most. The midrange warmth or the bottom end roll-off.]
Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated. I don't mean to hi-jack this thread and so I would take comments offline but maybe some of the answers might be relevant to this thread also. Either way thanks for the help.
Charles |
Tok, agreed.
Stehno, sorry I hit you too hard. You didn't seem to be waking up. Hope you feel better after hitting me back. I will leave you with that and turn the cheek. You need to ask yourself, however, how my original post steering the poster away from Vandy's - while never saying they were necessarily bad speakers - makes me now "irresponsible". I understand you are upset, but you need to be more careful with such words in the future. Just for the record, the "was" in the context of reviewer was past tense. |
Bwhite - if the EAD T-7000 & Audiomeca DAC are so good, why don't you use them in your system?
Do they need $3K power cords to sound good? |
I have heard the Vandy 5's in a system composed of all Spectral gear, and I would like to say it sounded pretty darn good. I liked it and frankly, I would have been happy to have called it my own.
Vandy's may not be the 'best' speaker at ultimate transparency. They may be not the greatest speaker at imaging. HOWEVER, for the money it is HARD to beat them. The Vandy 5's are some of the best all round great performing speakers for less than $12k. Certainly, they one of the best box speakers under $15k. Comparing them to ribbon and electrostats is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Both are fruit, both taste good, but give a different presentation altogether.
Frankly, unless you have tried out a lot of different equipment with a given loudspeaker, one really does not know the speaker's qualities (or general qualities). Just changing out gear can make speakers sound very, very different. Speakers can go from dark sounding to bright sounding with the change of an amp. Speakers can go from muddy sounding with little low frequency response to seemings transparent to a much tighter bass with the change of a preamp. And this does not stop with just the speakers you are listening to. When you listen to a recording you are listening to the performers through the mics that they were recorded with through the wires connected to the mics through the sound mixer they were recorded with through the medium they were recorded with through the medium you are playing them through, through the player you are playing it on, through the preamp you are running the signal through in your system, through the amp you are driving your speakers with, and NOW through the speakers you are listening to.
Many people forget what a long electronic line of chain they are hearing when they listen to their systems. Subtly can be lost many places in that chain. So can imaging. So can sooooo many things.
Well, I must goto bed now.
KF |
Asa, you don't just beat somebody to a pulp and then decide to call it quits while their body is still moving.
1. Not that it matters one iota, as you yourself confirm, that you were once a reviewer.
2. Two, I apologize for using the word sterile. I did not verify your verbage from your previous post. I don't like it when somebody misquotes me and I certainly would not intentially want to do that to another. But again, you stated that I 'demanded' information from you when in fact I simply 'asked' that you share more information.
3. I stated very clearly that I myself had not heard these speakers. Yet in laymans (sp) terminology, I simply attempted to convey to other readers, from my readings and from another who has auditioned them, who's opinion I highly respect, that your opinion was and IS the only descenting vote on this speaker that I am aware of. That has not changed. And I certainly do not believe I need to listen to the Vm5's to qualify that or any other statement I made to you in my previous post.
4. As a professional reviewer, I would think you would realize you have a greater responsibilty to be more informative and constructive before poo-pooing a product since some to many would have a tendency to be swayed by your words and good manufacturers doors can be closed permanently by a reviewer's comments.
5. I've been pretty consistant with my feelings of many to most audio reviewer's opinions just as I believe I was in my previous post to you. Yet you attempt to portray me as one who clings to those journalist's and/or their opinions. See number two above. And your 40 lashes have done nothing to make me love you guys more.
6. Yes I did make a few assumptions about you. That was pretty easy to do since you gave little information regarding your opinion and background. But now I have a few more assumptions.
6. You state in your last post that you are quite informed with the Vandersteen product line and have more experience than some with them. You listed your system. That's good. Now we're getting somewhere. That was all I ASKED for along with a few other things.
Had I known you were some sort of professional reviewer, I would not have asked for those things. Instead, I would have demanded them from you.
You know, Asa, I said nothing to warrant the beating that you tried to give me in your last post. But obviously I hit some nerve. They say that if you throw a rock into a pack of wolves, the one that barks the loudest is usually the one that got hit."
And here you repeatedly and intentionally misquoted me and twisted my words to your advantage. While at same time falsely accusing me of doing those very things to you. Nice try.
Talk about tenacity? How about irresponsible? And I can think of a few other adjectives.
I too have become disinterested.
-IMO |
Stehno, you keep making assumptions, as in, if I don't believe that the Vandy's are the last word on spatial and harmonic performance, then, ipso facto, I've somehow said that they are "sterile". That's NOT what I said and I do not appreciate your bending of my words, which, at this point, one must assume is intentional. I said that the 5's can be bettered by other speakers in those specific areas and that, in the context of the poster's listening biases, this consideration is heightened, and, in my opinion, determitive.
I was a "professional" reviewer (TAS,UA) and I can tell you from personal experience, you really need to try and get beyond this conformism to others' ideas in a dearth of your own experience. Mags are fun and informative, but should be kept in perspective. I'm glad you are excited about the world of audio, but, please, in the future, try to think before you leap.
I have two systems: TNT 4, Graham 2, Cardas Heart, Hovland phono cable, NBS & Audionote Kondo wire, ElectraGlide PC's , ESP Concert Grand & Harp, Spendor & Quad US spkrs, Joule Electra line & phono, Supratek pre, AirTight ATM300 amp, Cary 805 monos, dedicated lines & room, all NOS tubed, etc. etc.
You have too nice of a system - hence, have been around long enough - to be comfortable with demanding others to provide information when you yourself have admittedly no experience with the issue at hand.
Your next question, since I know you can't stop...
I have owned 2 Vandy spkrs (1B & 2Ce), heard them more times than I can count and and have recommended them to many people starting out. The 5 is alot of speaker for the $ - I've heard it several times - and, as I said, I would recommend them to many people (and have...). However, the Vandy's as a line - and the 5's continue this - have never been world beaters in some nuanced areas aforementioned. Better all the time, but not the best.
If you do not know this, then we will have to agree to disagree until you either 1) listen to what you've read about, or 2) listen and are entitled to conclude/demand as you do above (assuming that your listening experience aligns with your pre-concieved ideas).
Frankly, I've never seen someone exhibit such tenacity on an issue that they themselves admit they have no experience in.
At this point, its become something apart from "interesting". |
Asa, thanks for the compliment on my "interesting approach to an argument". However, I did not make it up. I saw it in another thread.
In all seriousness. You say you found the Vandersteen's Model 5 are too sterile, etc. Yet, this impression has been reported to be quite common on shorter auditioning periods for the Vm5's.
Yet others that have thoroughly listened to them also can rate them so highly, including Peter Moncrief of IAR who basically tied them with another much more expensive speaker as the most highly rated dynamic driver speaker system.
I have not read (though I'm sure they exist) any professional reviewer speak in the negative sense of the Vm5's as you have. In fact, I've only read positive to very positive things for all Vandersteen models.
As I clearly stated, I've not heard the Vm5's myself, and I certainly don't put too much stock into what most of the professionals may say, but there is also no reason to give you more credence than they especially since you are providing much less information than they. And especially when there's not much on paper or quotes from others to substantiate your claim.
You may be 100% correct, but I think the odds are not in your favor.
Of course, it would certainly help to understand your position by describing your current system, your personal preferences, and finally the system, room, music, and duration of time used for the audition.
Would you care to share that info? |
Znak_m, the EAD is good isn't it? It's mysterious how other MUCH more expensive transports can be completely blown away by this thing. When it comes to digital, I've had them all and the EAD transport (T-7000) absolutely smoked everything else - even when using lesser DACs.
Now.. the Audiomeca DAC (I suppose you mean the Enkianthus) is amazing. Talk about involving! Its very relaxed sounding and very emotional. Its not a "get up and dance" type of sound but it is certainly magical. That DAC (or an Audio Note) combined with the EAD would be MY choice for the top player right now. Better than AudioAero, Accuphase, EMC-1, etc. and much less expensive. The soundstage from that EAD goes through the walls!
Cables will be your next step after your source is nailed down. |
Stehno, you say that I must be wrong on the Vandy 5's in how they sound, assuming that I must not have listened long enough, while admitting that you do not know what my experience is and have no experience yourself beyond what other people have told you, ie no experience? Interesting approach to an argument, but if you simply have to believe that Vandy's have the spatial and harmonic sophistication of some others based upon a conversation with a manufacturer - not always a good place to look for objective opinion - then ok, I'll be happy for you. Vandy 5's are nice speakers and I would recommend them to many people, but given the poster's sterilty sensitivity, which implies a strong need for sophisticated harmonics and spatial continuity, I believe he should look beyond Vandersteen.
Glad that tweeking has helped, Znak. Now, look at the wires, but don't go nutty - bwhite can help you there too. I still think in the end you will move away from the Revels. Talk to bwhite about his pre and its effects on his system. |
Bwhite: I tried everything you suggested and it made a significant difference. Its still not completely there,b ut much better. The EAD transport surprised me. What do you think, by the way, of the Audiomeca DAC? |
You mentioned windows on front and side walls. You COVER them while listening I hope? My other take would be to sit closer- 15' is probably too far for distance between speakers of 9-10'. I also agree with some of the comments regarding filtering. Go back to stock power cords (try one at a time).
And cables make world of a difference.
Finally in Hockey's defense, I would say that I completely agree with him about the Revel-Rowland combo at Ambrosia. I have listened the combo may be three different times and left me wanting more body. But I can't say if it is due to Revel Salons or The Rowland or the combo synergy. |
I woud look into upgrading the speaker cables the Prime are a good budget cable but not up to the level of your system.I recently borrowed a pair of Tara Ref. Gen IIs from my dealer and they sound very nice. They would also add a little warmth to balance out your Ravels as they can sound cold at a times.Better Yet try the Tara Air 2 speaker cables.They are neutral yet slightly warm and will help to flesh out the sound.Good luck. |
Asa, I've never listened to the Vandersteen Model 5, nor have I ever seen a model 5 in person. Now that you know where I'm coming from, I'm going to say that you probably don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to the Vm5's.
You may have listened to them, but as with any listening, even as illustrated in this thread, if everything ain't matchin' you would have no clue what the component or speaker is capable of.
I am basing my opinion solely on reading reviews and detailed papers on the model 5, reading interviews with R.Vandersteen the man and also on his research into making the model 5, and a friend who is seriously considering the model 5's at this point in time.
But supposedly one common occurrence with the Vm5's is that the initial impression of listening to the model 5's is people walk away wanting more and not satisfied. They say that listening to some of the more popular speakers on the market with pumped up highs to make a speaker sound better in the showroom or perform other showroom tricks will make those sound more 'hi-end' than the Vm5's. They say it takes some time for the listener to settle before they realize exactly what they are hearing.
Time and phase coherent, first order crossovers, each driver is custom fabricated to compensate for the typcial deficiencies found in almost all drivers, the cabinet's inert construction qualities, etc., etc.. Most people cannot believe he is only charging $10k for these speakers.
I'll stop there. You may be correct in your opinion. But for now I have no reason not to believe these could be one of the finest speaker systems made. And I'm not alone.
-IMO |
Znak -
Thanks for responding to me up above; I haven't had a chance to write you a decent response before now.
By "tube rolling", I mean trying different tubes to get the overall sonic characteristics you want. "Rolling the front end" would mean trying different tubes in the front end, in hopes of enhancing the overall synergy. It's kinda fun.
I appreciate your articulating the requirement for "differentiation of instrumental timbres". I've never heard that expression before, but it's richly descriptive - I'm gonna remember it.
Differentiation of instrumental timbres would be facilitated by natural decay of the notes, so that the harmonic structure isn't blurred or colored. Any resonances will spoil the timbre as the notes decay, because the ear perceives a sound that lasts longer as being louder.
As a side note, when Jon Dahlquist designed the legendary DQ-10, he had to choose between aligning the leading edges of the notes, or the trailing edges of the notes (attack or decay). His listening tests indicated that the ear is more sensitive to what's happening in the trailing edges of the notes, so that's what he optimized in the DQ-10.
Loudspeakers that don't use boxes have an inherent advantage in getting timbre and decay right, because at least three potentially significant problems are neatly sidestepped: internal box resonances, box panel resonances, and re-radiation of the woofer's backwave through the cone. As an example of this breed, the Quad 57 is still celebrated for its clarity and natural timbre.
If you want full-range reproduction with extremely natural instrumental timbre and decay of the notes, there are three speaker lines I suggest: Audio Artistry, Beveridge, and Sound Lab. Audio Artistry uses dynamic drivers and gives you more of a front-of-the-hall presentation; Beveridge gives you more of a middle to rear of the hall presentation; and Sound Lab gives you more of a middle of the hall presentation. I'm a dealer for Sound Lab, but still an admirer of Beveridge (see www.beveridge-audio.com) and Audio Artistry. The two electrostats mentioned here give you a very wide sweet spot, and while the Audio Artistry line gives a more conventional sweet spot, their dynamic impact is phenomenal.
I'm not saying that these three are the only possible solutions - only that they excel in the area you have highlighted; namely, differentiation of instrumental timbres. "Full-range" single-driver systems like the Beauhorn also excel at this, but don't have authority in the bottom two octaves.
I can talk your ear off about either the Beveridges, Audio Artistrys, or Sound Labs, if you'd like to know more.
Best of luck in your quest,
Duke |
While it's okay to keep tweaking the system, if you don't loose too much on the speakers (since they were demos) my guess is you will never be happy with Revels. Unless maybe a tube preamp - I don't know what your preamp is now.
Accurate sound does not have to be clinical. But Bbtuna made one of the best statements that I have also discovered:
"system was "univolved" or "thin" at times since there is no coloration"
That's how my system sounds. Problem is when you add coloration, good recordings could sound bad while bad recordings could sound better. Overall I think you're loosing out by adding colorations. But that is just my opinion.
I would recommend ATC active 100's or 50's. You can see a photo of passive ATC 50's that are being sold at Audiogon now. They are very accurate but not sterile like Revels. I found Spendor 1/2's, Vandersteen 2 and 3 are nice but colored or have box resonances and don't think that is where you'd want to go.
Other warmer speakers that you could try are JM Reynaud Evolutions or Aerial Acoustics. Accurate but warm. JMR talks about the "trailing edge" of the note while Revels are "leading edge of the note" speakers. |
Znak_m, I have to believe the EAD T-7000 Transport will kill the Metronome. Sorry to say but its true. The EAD beat out many transports under 10K in my own system. :( Plug it into the metronome DAC and get ready for something special!
Also, I have to repeat, the Hydra should ONLY be used on your digital gear. Its not a good thing for amps/preamps.
Don't worry about the 30' run of cable. That is the least of your issues. The Revels are great speakers but are to some extent "impersonal" and less "involving" than other speakers you've lived with making synergy a more delicate path to tread...that said, the Revels will play exactly what you send them so... this becomes simply a case of matching the right cables & conditioners with the right components.
And if you can stomach it, use the EAD. Its outstanding! IF you don't want to use it, please....sell it to me. |
Just try the shorter interconnect on a temporary basis to see if that is where the problem lies. If it is, then you can consider various options. |
Just try the shorter interconnect on a temporary basis to see if that is where the problem lies. If it is, then you can consider various options. |
I have always thought the Revel Studio's were clinical but they focus very well. I think the Studio's need high-current solid-state amplification to sound their best. IMO, the image wander you mention could be attributed to your amplification.
The lack of dimensionality makes me suspect your DAC or transport.
I would definately take a look at different speaker cables. There is much better out there then Tara Labs. Generally I have found Tara Labs to sound vieled and soft. |
I appreacite all of your suggestions. Before doing anything rash, I am going to take Kana813's advice and check out the impedance interactions between these components and talk to Scott Frankland. I understand he is a dealer (or works at one) in San Jose. By the way, Kana813, you're right about the octal front end tubes on the MFAs, but they are not that old.
I will also switch the Shunyata to the digital front end and preamp and plug the amps right into the wall sockets which are dedicated. Oddly enough, yesterday just taking the Mamba off the DAC and replacing it with a Sidewinder seemed to result in some improvement.
BWhite, the EADs are the 7000 series; the first series they produced, I think. I have been thinking about trying the EAD transport with the Metronome DAC to see if it sounds better than the Metronome transport; the EAD transport is built like a tank.
Many of you have suggested getting rid of the 30' interconnect run, but to do that would require a 30' run from the preamp to the DAC (not to mention the tuner, SACD, and turntable). Would that be a better situation anyway? It would be inconvenient this way as the preamp would no longer be close to the listening position and would instead be close to the speakers. Are there any ICs of which any of you are aware that the Hovaland might have an easier time running at 30'?
Thanks again. |
Tubegroove is right, dump the speakers. Look around, stay away from wjat people call "high resolution"; look for what people call "musical." Vandys are not your answer. Spendors, guys?
Bwhite also right, get those nice amps OUT of the Hydra and into the wall. Plug CD/pre into Hydra. Avoid long IC's if at all possible.
Get better IC's/spkr cabling. Ask around, see other posts, say how much you are willing to drop.
Hovland nice, good company, but Supratek far better, less money. You'd like it. See current thread on it.
Good luck!! |
I really get a kick out of you folks that think changing
around some power cords will solve Znak_m's issues with
his already excellent system.
No amount of money spent on some fancy power cords can make up for a system mismatch between a preamp and power amp.
Znak_m, the Revels are great speakers, please seek out
my friend Scott Frankland and discuss the the interface
of your new Hovland to the M200s.
Aloha.
Maui Dan |
Znak_m here is the quick cure (your MFA's are good amps)
I know Scott Frankland - he does good work.
1) Take the Hydra OFF of the amps.
2) Use any PC you have two of on the amps (hopefully you can use the BMI's). If you have been using Shunyata's on the Amps, use stock PC's.
Plug direct to wall if possible.
3) Plug the Metronomes into the Hydra.
3a) Try the various PC's you have left over on the digital gear swap the Mamba & Top Gun between the DAC and Transport
4) report back to us to let us know about the changes you hear.
Also.. what EAD front end were you using? The EAD T-7000 perhaps??? |
I haven't read any posts because there are too many and I'm too lazy, plus some of them are most likely worthless, sorry, I had to say that. If I'm being redundant, I apologize, I would get rid of all conditioners, especially the power wedge and go directly to the wall provided you have dedicated lines. Anytime I've used any form of conditioning except power cords it is exactly as you describe. |
Znak m- Your MFA 200 uses octal base front end tubes 6SL7 or the mil spec version 5691, if I remember correctly. If
you've never replaced these tubes, you should try some new ones. They last longer than the output tubes, but they do
wear out.
As I posted above, not all tube preamps can drive long
cable runs. The Hovland's high output impedance of 2500 ohms can cause interactions with long cable runs, unless
it sees a high input impedance on the amps. Their amp's
input impedance is 680K ohms.
I'm not suggesting you replace your 30' cable run with another brand of cable, just try a shorter run between the
preamp/amp and see want happens.
If you need help with the MFAs, suggest you contact Scott
Frankland. |
Bbtuna. Thanks again for the info. The local dealer I bought the Revels from (they were his demo pair)is a small dealer in the sense that he doesn't carry many products. He doesn't carry the Vandersteens and the closest dealer for them is about 3 hours away. Not insurmountable but I doubt that I could hear them at home simply because the dealer won't sell the demos (which is probbly the only way I could hear them at home)because it takes about 16 weeks to get a new pair, according to him.
I doubt the dealer here would take back the Revels, but it doesn't hurt to ask; its just that he has nothing to replace them with and probably can't buy them back.
In any event I will certainly try your suggestions. |
