Nope, the placebo effect has nothing to do with this on a blind AB test. Topologies do matter (a lot), and distortion as well as harmonics which are more enhanced in some designs are both received and acknowledged by the human brain.
The heat that is mentioned before by jwei does impact the sound in a class A environment but within a few minutes of powering up again depending on the design of the amp. Heat affects also, inter alia, the impedance of components sometimes materially.
The only mistake people make in this is treating it as an overly simplified subjective affair. It is extremely complicated that sound engineers may spend a lifetime to master. Even the room construction topology merits attention with sound interference patterns being closely monitored and with millions of budgets invested in serious philarmonic venues.
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It’s not the amp, it’s your ears and what’s between them. Listening to music that you enjoy will release hormones like dopamine. Listening to songs you like, and more importantly, allowing yourself to relax and enjoy the music will speed up the process. The amps casing and heat sink temps that you seem to be measuring have nothing to do it. But you guys go ahead and disagree, I enjoy reading many of the different explanations and recommendations. 😄
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The most important thing is you love the sound after the warm up. That is hard to achieve and I wouldn't want to risk losing it by switching components.
The problem seems to be the long warm up and the heat. A "cheap" solution would be to leave the amp on all the time and buy an air conditioner for a couple hundred dollars. Presumably, your listening room has a window for the heat exhaust.
You could leave the amp on all the time with the door closed and turn on the air conditioner half an hour before you want to listen. And of course turn it off while you listen because it's noisy.
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.. and to avoid misunderstanding I would advise as follows:
a) if you are a purist and would not accept a "fly on your sword" then it is obvious where to look
b) if you want a plug and play solution which would give you the very good results in a low maintenance environment for with SS class A
c) if you want a excellent solution on a plug and "pray" scenario which will require biasing, tube rolling, and more hands on work go with tubes
Subjectivity does not win over physics..
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Hello all
Have been building amps for 40 years and built/auditioned a lot of circuit topologies both ss and tube.
Re warmup time- it should not be more than 15-30 mins for tubes depending on the ambient temp and 1 hour for pure (very rare) class A for ss.
Re sound quality, nothing beats thermionic emission in sound reproduction, nothing (in my experience). You could go pure class A SS with the best topology million dollar components in the signal path and still fall short of a lousy mediocre Chinese built tube amp running pentodes in ultralinear class AB. Go with more bias, SET and triodes and you are in heaven. Want more bass reproduction fix your psu. Matching tube impedances with transformers, and different tubes is a way to fix any topological issues.
Wont even touch tube OTL designs as those are unique and sound 10 times better than any tube transformer amp but more moody than an angry woman
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all solid state amps struggle to make power in the bass region.
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This runs counter to everything I've learned over the past 50 years.
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I have Maggie 3.7i paired with a Pass 250.8 and it sounds terrific. When I can I'll turn it on from standby about one hour before listening. On occasion I've listened from startup and the sound is still very listenable. |
All,
Great informative reading. I learn a lot about matching and challenges one doesn’t always think of when getting new equipment.
I am currently running Magnipan 3.7 and Thiel CS2 (depending on m6 mood) from ole school Classe DR-15 amp/DR4 pre. Very happy overall with the sound on both but considering what going to the 250.8 might bring. Or maybe an upgrade to preamp?
(Also have Rega P8/Alpheta3/Rega Aria mk3/California Audio Labs CD).
I know the Classe stuff is dinosaur so maybe not much experience here with that but it has served me remarkably well.
any thoughts would be appreciated....also don’t want 6 hours of warm up time....ha...thanks. |
Oh, I haven't checked the heat sink. Last time I got inconsistent results. But, after constant idle and then playing for 3 hours, the top and front plate reach around 110-115 F and stays there. |
@chungjh,
Thinking about your 260.8 amp. 55 degrees celsius measured at the heat sink is often referred to as optimum operating temp for many Pass amps. Reportedly, 55c is also a setup tuning point where Pass Labs sets the bias on many of their X/XA amps. It's re-checked many times during the first week of build validation testing. Bias is not set or checked until hot right at 55c. Some manuals note 55c as the sweet spot for warmup and listening time.
Last year I recall someone who finally sent their amp back in, found out it was not reaching optimum bias and temp. Simple adjustment fixed it.
Gotta infrared thermometer (heat gun) to check how fast it gets to 55c?
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The Sound Labs are a different sort of beast. Like most ESLs, they don't work so well with amps that can double power as impedance is halved, since the Electrostatic principle doesn't rely on a driver in a box...
The impedance curve of the speaker varies by about 10:1 from the bass (peaks at 30 ohms) down to about 3 ohms at 20KHz. But the efficiency of the speaker is about the same though that entire range; for this reason most *but not all* solid state amps will tend to sound bright on them. A Brilliance control is provided to help tone this down a bit, as well as jumpers to allow for more bass, since all solid state amps struggle to make power in the bass region. This is why a tube amp of 140 watts can easily keep up with a solid state amp of 600 watts on that speaker!
Tube amps will stabilize much quicker than solid state (in terms of warming up to get where it needs to go to sound right), so with a good tube amp you should be having the system very near its ultimate warm-up in only an hour, and really sounding quite good in only 15-20 minutes.
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@chungjh@chungjh
McCormack and odyssey
idle is enough for warmup, if you need more than 6-10 hrs for warm up, that’s not good.
some newer caps may need more warm up time.
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Hi Chung,
we have similar small room and if you not get bother with heat then go try tube amp .The heat from power tubes is hotter than pass amp !!! But winter is coming so no worries 😁.
me also use Pass before but 250.5 And their INT.
my experience with tube amp is pretty fast to warm up , at 15 min I can do listening But getting better in 30 min or so.
I try some prima Luna ,Line magnetic & Audio research Then settle with Air Tight .Tube amp also look better in my opinion 👍.
Have great evening 🙏
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OP. There is a problem. I have a 150.8 and it 'only' took an hour to get best performance, from off. I leave it on standby and get best performance in minutes. An amp that takes five or six hours to sound best is defective.
As for tubes: If your Pre is tube based then in my humble opinion that is enough. |
Ray
One option I was thinking is to take out the expensive tube BAT Rex2 preamp and connect Lumin X1 streamer/dac directly to a high gain tube amp, using the LEEDH volume control on X1. However, I found with my Pass X250.8, which has gain of 26, some albums weren't loud enough at LEEDH max volume. I was thinking that 3 db additional gain would be just enough. Well, MRE220 has 29 db gain and got good reviews. There is a used one on the market (without SBB) at around $10,000. It should have plenty of power to drive my SL speakers.
1.What is the power consumption at idle? My Rex2/x250.8 combined put out 900W of heat at idle.
2. Sibilance and edgy sound bother me a lot. How does MRE220 do on this?
3. How do you like Jubilee vs. MRE220? The person selling MRE220 is also moving to Jubilee. |
Hi there. I had the ARC Reference 10 pre and Ayre MX-R monos. They turned my audio room (16' x 18') into a hot yoga facility after about 3 hours of play. Also, I wasn't that pleased with the sound after a visit to the Munich Hi-End Show and hearing what other systems at the same or slightly less price were delivering. When I returned I continued my research and testing. I landed on the Octave Jubilee (a hybrid with a solid state power supply) and the Octave MRE 220 w/ the "Super Black Boxes", which are external capacitance power devices (one per mono amp). They are leagues above my old components in their build quality and sonic performance across all parameters of measurement and evaluation. To single out just a few qualities: incredible inner detail and nuance - check; accuracy in tone and musical pace - check; a vastly bigger, deeper and more defined soundstage - check; and, a much fuller, deeper and more articulate bass - check again.
But moving to your concerns. The components need no more than an hour to achieve full potential and the tube pre and tube monos together give off far less heat than just my ARC Reference 10 did (a two box unit with a tube power supply). Tons of power from the MRE 220 amps with and without the SBBs.
There is so much great gear across the pond providing far better performance and value. You only need to visit a handful of European countries to quickly appreciate how much more they are into music than Canada and America. They've had a head start and it shows.
Ray |
Yes, I am running BAT rex2 tube preamp with my Pass Labs. It sounds better with it than without it when I go direct from Lumin X1 streamer/dac which has outstanding LEEDH volume control. One option is to get rid of rex2/Pass and go directly from Lumin X1 to a tube amp, to get the tubes smoothness. If I do this, I can go for a much more expensive tube amp. |
Hi @chungjh`
"worth the price" is in the eyes and ears of the beholder and a person’s wallet I’d guess. CJ has a huge following just like Pass or Cary or Audio Note, etc. I’ve not heard the new Art150 or Art300 myself. I have been reading comparisons as I run two mono amps with KT150 tubes myself - wondering how and why the Art150 costs $15,000 more. Knowing CJ through colleagues, I’m sure it sounds``wonderful. I’d have to hear that amp in my own system on my speakers before I’d conclude its worth it.
A buddy owns that $20k GAT preamp by CJ. He compared it to my same $4.5k tube preamp with upgraded caps in it, and reported he’s selling the GAT preamp pocketing the difference. Don’t forget that Art150 amp will need a worthy preamp to go along with it. The cost adds up quick. I was at the same point you are now about "ears" and led myself back to tube amps, different interconnect cables, a tube DAC, and even changing coupling caps to smooth things out even more. There may be some things to try with your own 260.8 before going all tubes.
My own KT150 based amps were still a tad bright to me until I installed good NOS small input/signal tubes and changed coupling caps in them. Upgrading a standard build tube amplifier with standard upgrades used can be amazing when done by a good tech who knows how to improve a line. A good friend just had two different CJ" amps upgraded lately and likes the difference quite a bit. Everything I’ve heard myself at Deetes with SoundLab speakers has always been pleasant, yet it’s always been tube preamps and tube amps powering them. You could also try a proper tube preamp with your 260.8 in an effort to keep it. I’ve had email conversations myself with Nelson on this topic, he has many customers running tube based preamps with his XA and X amps. Feel free to send me a PM. |
I leave my Pass amp on all the time now and still warm up for a couple of hours to sound GREAT. But, I still hear sibilance in Diana Krall's tracks and some others. As I get older, this sibilance thing bothers me more and more. At my volume of playing, I am still deep in Class A, and yet still sibilance. Does this mean I have to bite the bullet and go for a high end tube amp? This review on Conrad Johnson's ART150 sounds good: inner detail but smooth. Of course, it is close to $20,000. Do you think the reviewer is exaggerating and do you think CJ is worth the price? |
@chungjh
I left my X250.8 on. This afternoon, it started sounding good around 2 hr mark. Less sibilance and harshness. Similar situation with my prior dual-mono MOSFET SS amps I ran for 20+ years. Mine did still keep sounding better at hour 4, and more dimensional at hour 8 when they are on all day long. Similar to Pass .5 and .8 amps. There are several threads on this, owners debating this. Tested and made notes today on my own tube mono amps with big transformers. 60 minutes was listenable, but hour 2 became plush and 3-dimensional. I cannot listen to them until at least 1hr warm-up. Kinda reconfirming again its just so much better at hour 2 with my tube amps too. Once it hits that bias set point, becomes very musical, enjoyable. |
Sounds like you all need to take a look at Pathos Acoustics and the impolite units. |
decooney,
Thanks for the info. I will look into it. Since last night, I left my X250.8 on. This afternoon, it started sounding good around 2 hr mark. Less sibilance and harshness. |
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@chungjh
BTW, I need power in the amp because of the esl speakers.What do you all think? To: @chungjh I don't typically recommend dealers, in your situation it could be worthwhile to correspond. A local home audio dealer (Deetes) here in northern California USA has been in business since 1967, offers SoundLab speakers, sold Pass, more AudioNote and QuickSilver today. Primarily traditional TUBE amp systems only - that's his real passion, and specific electrostatic speakers. He's actually been selling SoundLab speakers as long as anyone around the world. I've known him for 42 years, seen and heard a lot of gear there new, used, trade-ins. A real treat to hear Soundlab there. Its a special place, last of its kind. The first time I saw and heard my own mono block tube amplifiers they were playing with massive SoundLab speakers there. Deetes is a big fan of your SL 545s too. Email and by appointment only. In business 53+ years. Deetes Sound Room Deetes Andersen deetessound@hotmail.com |
I think @ebm is right.
I use a X350.8 and I believe your X250.8 is warmer sounding. I don't think it will ever be the same as a tube power amp.
I like a warm and full midrange and don't think any solid state power amp will ever give me that close enough to say a Conrad Johnson. If my speakers didn't need the high current and I could live with the heat and cost of retubing, I would have gone for a Conrad Johnson.
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@chungjh
Sound labs are not bi ampable. Anyone have experience with high end D class amp?I know they are generally poo pooed, but who knows-may be there has been sufficient progress recently. Class D you say? How about Tube + Class D monos 600w @8ohms. Effective to drive your Sound Labs, with ease. Quick warmup, and ready for listening. https://www.psaudio.com/stellar-m1200-mono-amplifier/PS audio Mono 1200s. Ultra-linear, high-current, ICE Edge Class D technology for the output stage; and a discrete, Class-A vacuum tube for the all-important input stage. |
My Viva "Solistino" is an 18W class A integrated amp. I usually turn it on for 10-15 minutes for warm up, it does sound a little better after 30 mins. And the IA runs very hot.....can't imagine a system that takes 5-6 hours to warm up. |
Sound labs are not bi ampable. Anyone have experience with high end D class amp?I know they are generally poo pooed, but who knows-may be there has been sufficient progress recently. |
+ on the Sanders Magtech amps.
ALL the amp you will EVER need.
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There seem to be some pretty darn good Class D amps hitting the market. High wpc & Low cost. Are Sound labs bi-ampable?
Or buy a couple Magtechs from Roger Sanders and solve all
your power needs. |
I am very surprised that ZOTL 40 is powerful enough to drive Maggies. For Soundlab panel speakers, they recommend >200 W, like Atma-Sphere MA-2. |
As an X250.8 owner with a First Sound tube pre amp I find that an hour or so is all that’s needed to achieve 100% optimum playback sound quality. If the system improves after 6 hours I’m unable to hear a difference. |
Chungjh
I have an LTA reference 40 amp paired with a Don Sachs preamp. I used to drive a pair of very difficult Maggie 3.7i's with this setup and had no problems. That amp is a giant killer if there ever was one. Just stunning. Keep in mind it's not necessarily watts you are looking for but current. And those el34 tubes give you plenty. I would try one as you get a 14 day no questions asked return policy. You may be greatly surprised.
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I own a BAT VK-33SE preamp and VK-255SE power amp. My speakers are 88 Db efficiency. The amp drives them effortlessly, with plenty of safe headroom, and I find it to sound it's best after about 30 to 45 minutes. It gets quite warm by 30 minutes, maybe you could say hot, but never a room heater. BAT products work very well with one another. They are designed and engineered to do so. The VK-255SE amp is one of the most "tube-like" sounding solid state amps available. Since you have a BAT Rex-2 preamp it would be a very good decision to match it with a BAT power amp. That's one suggestion. Another suggestion is to get a BAT tube amp. The Rex-2 power amp (as well as the Rex-2 preamp) have both been recently replaced with the next-generation Rex-3 products. Thus, the Rex-2 power amp can likely be had at a nice discount. You may wish to contact Upscale Audio about that. They have a Rex-2 power amp set up as a demo unit. It is only switched on when a demonstration is requested. I visit the store fairly often and can tell you that amp is in absolute perfect condition. Upscale Audio is a wonderful retailer to do business with. I am confident they would work a nice price for you on that unit. Anyway, I thought you may want to take into consideration pairing your preamp with the engineered mate of power amp and also provide you with a very good path for such opportunity.
Best of luck to you. |
@azarya12345.
Your Vitus runs class A up to 25W. Doesn't it generate a lot of heat if you leave it on all the time on idle? |
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@azarya12345.
Your Vitus runs class A up to 25W. Doesn't it generate a lot of heat if you leave it on all the time on idle? |
I tried to speed up the warm up process by putting a towel over the amp. This is what Kent English at Pass does before shows. It does get the temperature up much quicker. However, it still took another 2 hr of music playing to sound GREAT. Kent thinks it is the diff pair in the input stage which runs at a constant current and it can't be fooled. |
No offense...this is when I believe being a mere mortal financially works to my benefit.
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6 hours is surprising to me. I’ve spoken to Kent at Pass. The Mosfets perform to their specs when they reach 50 degrees Celsius. That’s about 125 F. If you leave the switch on on the back I think the unit warms up in a little over an hour. But now you’ve made me curious. I’ll leave it on for 6 to see for myself. Btw, after 3 hours, I can put my hand on the amp and it feels like a warm, not hot cup of tea. |
hi, i had great expiriance with vitus ss-025, it has 25 watts class a , 300 class ab into 8 ohm and 600 into 4 ohm... after 2 hr. +/- it sounds like magic- fantastic. the closest i ever heard ss amp to tube sound... and when not listning i leave it on mute... |
I have the Metronome Technologie C6 (tube) and the Wavac 805m :they does not give the heat you think. In a half hour he sounds great. After one hour:it’s optimale ! |
Why don't you try getting a heat lamp and aiming it at the the heatsinks for 30min before play? That's a $20-$50 experiment that is a lot cheaper than getting a new tube amp.
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I own a Ref150 SE, it is at its best in 35-40 minutes but I must run an AC unit 12 months a year to be able to stay in the room ! LG 12MBH mini-split with low ambient kit for winter months, use it with Magico V3 ( not the easiest speaker to drive) never used it with ESL though... excellent sounding amp IMO |
@OP. My listening room is 13x12x8. I have a PS Audio BHK250, which is a hybrid class A amp with a tube input stage and SS output stage. My speakers are 89db Tannoy DC8Ti speakers. It pushes them with ease. I confident it will push your speakers with ease as well.
When turned off with the remote, the BHK250 goes into standby mode where the SS circuits stay charged. I give the tubes about 45 minutes to warm up before doing any critical listening. It is a great amp.
+1 on the LTA ZTOL40. I auditioned it for about a week. It is a wonderful sounding amp. I believe it will also push your speakers with ease. It tubes last between 5000 and 10000 hours.
I settled on the BHK250 because it sounded better with my PS Audio BHK preamp and DSD DAC.
Both PS Audio and LTA have 30 auditions and no questions asked return policies. You might want to give them a try. |
@ chungjh
the main switch on the back is always left on; the switch on the front is turned off after a listening session |
But to add to your post...really no warm up time required.
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Since you have the BAT Rex pre, maybe you should consider a BAT power amp like the VK 255se. Yes it's class AB but it has plenty of power for your panels. I have Apogee ribbons running on a BAT VK 42se pre and the BAT VK 250 amp. Great balanced combo.
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@zavato
Do you leave your X250.8 powered on all the time? |
I own an X250.8. I have had tube amps in the past- CJ and Rouge
2 comments- my amp is fully warmed up in 1 hour. Next- having had tube amps for about a dozen years, with the X250.8, I do not miss the tubes at all |
