dasign,
Thank you for that information.
At the present I do not have anything behind the Clarisys. But I will revisit some type of diffusor in the future.
ozzy
Planar Speakers and Diffusors
I have the Clarisys Speakers. They are the Planar type. I would like to treat the wall behind the speakers. I have been told not use any type of sound absorber, so I am interested in the GIK Acoustics Q7d Diffusor
I have a large 85" TV in between the speakers, so the only area that can be treated is behind the Planers. Check out my systems page.
I have yet to find a review of these diffusors, so has anyone used these and can comment on the effectiveness?
ozzy
60 responses Add your response
Ozzy, I have a pair of refurbished Duetta Signature which are similar to your Clarysis. Please avoid all theorical acoustic suggestions coming from non-planar speaker owners. Panel speakers have a figure 8 diffusion pattern and require specific acoustic solutions. As Suncoast Audio suggested, only use diffusers behind your panels. This is what I have successfully using for the last 10 years. You will enjoy a larger and deeper soundstage with increase imaging. Personally, I have built my own wood diffusers using 2x2 inch square studs. You can find this DIY diffuser recipe on the web. I have installed them at ears height directly behind the mid/high ribbons. Afterwards, I installed the same DIY diffusers behind my listening area at same height and line of sight as the front wall diffusers. These provided additional benefits (no more walls Ma!). Total cost was about $200 for four 2 square feet diffusers. |
Check out AWOL short throw laser projector and mobile screen that hides into a 4'''x5"x115" box on floor. It gets out of the way completely for serious audio listening, and rises up between speakers for AV entertainment. I use Apogee Divas with JL subs. The ability to listen and watch in 4k HD 100" diagonal screen is marvelous! Great products! I wish I could download pics or a video of this! |
I have extensive foam absorption on my side walls and ceiling with 90oz carpet. My front and rear walls are 3/4" cherry plywood with the entire room super strong and non-resonant (my profile indicates the $150K that went into building it). My old Focuses were not good sounding here. The Signature IIIs with the rear firing tweeter obviated the need for front wall absorption. My Von Schweikert VR9 SE Mk2s have adjustable rear tweeter and sub with such great dispersion that I don’t seem to need anything on front or rear walls. I used to own 5 different stat speakers over two decades. They were about 5 to 6 feet from the front walls mostly in a room 5,800 cu ft room. They did not appear to require rear baffling of any time although I had considered an expensive curved foam design for the Monolith IIIs. The Clarysis is a fine speaker. In a large enough room with ample depth to the front wall, they may not require any baffling (absorption or dispersion). At under 3 feet, very likely necessary. |
You got a lot of opinions on this Q! My reading is that the reflections off the back wall can reinforce the front at the right distance. My experience with Magnepan with sub is the back wall without absorption or deflection behind the speakers is best. I do have a bass trap on the back wall between the speakers. I'm in a pretty small room with corner bass traps and light absorption here and there. Informal Deflection at reflection points. Moving the speakers various ways was hugely useful. So was playing with my seat position. I got a totally flat REW curve and nice, wider than the speakers, sound stage. Happy experimenting! |
Thank you for some very good information. The DC3 Multiuser, QRD diffusers, along with adding a couple plants interests me. At this time, I’m going without front wall/behind speaker treatment. The soundstage is huge as it is! But I am such a tweaker and audio hobbyist, I’m sure I will revisit the suggestions sooner or later. ozzy |
I have Maggies on each side of a 65 inch TV, no absorption behind either, but a couple plants as diffusers. For critical listening, I worked up a screen of sorts made of Geo textile fabric that I drape over my television. I had the wife sew a slot/pocket on one of the long ends and inserted a dowel into it to match the length of the TV. That sits just over the top edge of the television and the rest just drapes down and hangs freely. When done listening I simply roll it up and tuck it into a closet. |
While the TV would need to be addressed separately, I'd focus, to start with, on just the front wall alone and go ONLY with some form of quadratic diffusion. Vertically oriented at that. That's really important because that is what is going to help bolster and clarify the center image in particular. On their own, your dipole speakers will throw most of their energy into the area more or less directly behind each speaker, leaving the center image unreinforced (...unless you were to penalize the stage width by moving the speakers closer together, of course). But vertically arranged quad diffusors will 'fan out' the rear projection horizontally (as horizontal diffusors spread the reflected sound vertically, it just depends on which problem you're trying to solve). That 'flashlight beam' pattern the speakers inherently have (as most dipoles do), will be spread out more evenly across the entire width of the stage, including both the center image and also even the rear corners of the stage, while 'reducing' the buildup directly behind the speakers at the same time. Everything should even out considerably more. Just don't settle for 'randomized' diffusors that spread equally in all directions or you'll lose out on the opportunity to 'steer' the sound where it will do the most good. After that project is successful, then you can turn your attention to the side walls...if needed at all, or regardless of what type of solution that might require on its own. |
Thanks for sharing your experience. Next, you may want to try adding absorption panels behind the speakers. Start with a few, and see what you think: perhaps you will find the imaging more precise, and the sound less bright. Whether that's a desirable characteristic for your system will have to be determined by yourself. There are many places that sell sound absorption panels. I started off just placing absorption panels directly behind both speakers, and I appreciated the sonic improvement, so I placed absorption panels on the entire back wall (with bass traps in the corners). It does make the sound quality less bright, but more detailed. It might dull the sound too much for some systems. |
Update: If you guys check out my system page, you will see that behind the Clarisys speakers I do have installed some plastic diffusors that I purchased from Amazon. I think they cost $62 for a package of 12. Anyway, today, based on this thread and comments I removed them. From what I now hear there is a more unified deep soundstage. So, based on this, I no longer think diffusors behind the Clarisys speakers to be a positive thing. ozzy |
Ozzy, Duke and Mijostyn - thank you all for the discussions about planer speakers and optimizing the room acoustics to improve the System’s sound performance. I have started my own investigations on improving my own listening room, and you guys have definitely helped me look in what I think are some positive areas for this improvement. Thanks again. Tom8999 |
This seems like highly sage advice. The outfit to advise needs familiarity with this kind of speaker behavior. It’s a fairly new brand and it’s unclear what kind(s) of room(s) they’re tested for. Rear reflectors in hotel demos suggests concrete/other solid structures being the design’s preferred residence. I am well aware that in my own case, not using a treatment specialist but receiving input from several after the fact, I surely got lucky more than I got things right by actually knowing enough myself 😉 Real research is designing, trying, alternating, all preferably in the presence of proper controls. Preparatory stages necessitate digesting a lot of modeling and/ or mathematical white papers (admittedly interesting to me, but with equations often over my head). Real research can only very rarely if ever be had by reading product web pages or fora descriptions about things like diffusers. Specialists can be special assets in this area! So yeah, my long and somewhat abrasive way of saying I agree with @audiokinesis
I also recommended UNtreating your floor just to see what effect it has - laying down some large panels of wood to make the vertical room boundaries more alike. Many people carpet the floor, but very few give parallel treatment to the ceiling. Perhaps this would have no effect, but conversely it could have considerable effect. And laying down some large thin wood panels on the floor would be much more temporary and cheap than… carpeting the ceiling! 😆 If wood panels on the floor reduce your enjoyment, that might tell you something about your fully exposed ceiling. Or not…
While you wait to find or connect with the relevant treatment specialist, there are many amateur mods you can do on the cheap, non-permanently, to help yourself learn what works best. Bear in mind, again, I agree that bass absorbers may not be effective solutions in your case especially if you want to increase soundstage. The issue with your walls/ceilings is that they already work more like low bass traps than not, in a sense, by letting lowest frequencies pass through. Concrete or steel-walled rooms would not have this “issue” and it might be an unavoidable shortcoming for your speakers if they need those manufacturer-recommended concrete boundaries for reinforcing frequencies between ~45 - 60/80/whatever Hz they cover, that’s not being calibrated for room boundary frequency-dependent permeability. All stuff that hopefully the specialist can discuss if you aren’t in a position to try higher-frequency (digital) bass management. Diffusers might make a difference in higher frequencies, but for lower bass the room boundaries or signal processing (lack thereof) might matter more when it comes to conveying soundstage per the recording/master of choice. |
drbond Thank you for your comments. I think the claim to fame for these Clarisys speakers is their wide-open soundstage, anything that inhibits that will change the design. To try any type of diffusor unit(s) would cost about $1000 to cover about a 4-foot area. And most mount differently. I would need to put a hole(s) in the wall to mount them. I’m not opposed to it, but there are several different diffusor types, along with different sizes. So, I would prefer to have more knowledge, before entering the path of wall Swiss cheese and trial and error. ozzy |
Try the diffusers, and let us know what you hear. Generally speaking, I've read here and elsewhere that absorption is better on the front wall (behind the planars). I have tried everything from nothing at all, to slight absorption, to full absorption (but never diffusion), on the front wall. The absorption does change the character of the sound, but I would describe it as more precise, more detailed, with better imaging. Without absorption, there is quite a bit of sound that bounces off the front wall, and distorts the precise soundstage. But it does sound "brighter" without absorption, so if your system sounds dull, then perhaps, no absorption will be better, although perhaps the musical imaging will be slightly more blurred. Experiment with your ears, and find out what's best for your system and your room. |
@ozzy - It’s interesting that you get the best sound with the speakers 60" from the front wall. That’s exactly what the Cardas calculator for dipoles recommends for your room dimensions (well, 59.28" to be exact). |
Hi @ozzy, 60 inches distance from the wall behind them is exactly what I would recommend. More would be nice, but 60 inches will do the job very well. I use often fake Ficus trees for diffusion. A real diffusion panel would be superior, but unfortunately I don't know which one to recommend. Duke |
ketchup, Thanks, My room is 17 X 26 X 8. Center to center speaker is 138" they are 60" from the front wall and 30" from the sidewall, and I sit 144" from the speakers. I have 4 JL-F-113 subs in the corners that are calibrated to the room and crossed over at 45hz. I just visited the ATS website, and their prices are comparable to GIK. All the different types of diffusors are confusing. ozzy |
@ozzy you should also look into ATS Acoustic's QRD diffusers. They're similar to GIK's, but they're a better value (lower cost per square foot of wall coverage). They will also custom make them in any height you want for a minimal upcharge. Another option are GIK's polycylindrical diffusers (they call them Polyfusors). They will give you a little bit of bass trapping since they're filled with insulation. I just installed a pair of these behind my Maggies. Have you measured the room? You may wan to start with bass traps. I just installed floor to ceiling traps in three of my corners and the result was jaw dropping. Bass traps should not dull the sound if you get the type that reflect mids and highs. Getting the bass decay times under control is the first order of business imo. |
Thanks, guys, for the help. GIK did send me an email based on the pictures I sent them of my room, but their suggestions were all over the map. A one-to one conversation needs to be scheduled and they say they are booked out for the next month. Plus, it took many days before they even responded to a question via their website or email. So, I guess working with them is out. The dealer suggests diffusors behind the speakers or nothing else. No sound absorbing material. The speaker designer also attends the shows with the dealer, so I think they are on the same page as to room treatments. Believe me I had a whole room full of Tube Traps, Stillpoint Apertures and they deadened the sound. So, I sold them all. I would like to try something, (I guess I am bored?) Quadratic Residue diffusers? What is the difference in performance between them and the slat type diffusors? ozzy |
You got a fantastic question from Duke - what does the speaker manufacturer recommend ? i would email them photos and a dimension sketch. Personlly, i like wood Quadratic Residue diffusers and a you might consider a combination diffuser / absorber on slides to cover the TV. Core Audio Designs make a lovely version. A blanket… is a start but is NOT remotely broad band or linear…. |
@ozzy brush this by the guys at GIK if you haven’t yet. |
audiokinesis,Thank you for your response. To answer the questions posed: The speakers are 60" from the front wall, 30" from sidewall, no toe in. I have never heard these speakers prior to purchasing them. They have a very wide soundstage. Unless the music comes directly from the left or right channel you cannot hear the speakers individually. SunCoast has advised using large plants behind them for diffusion (on the cheap side). I am always looking for ideas to improve, thus my question. ozzy
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@ozzy, I like your approach of diffusing rather than absorbing the backwave. Ime the backwave energy of a good full-range dipole can be very beneficial, but you want to preserve its spectral content rather than degrading it by using absorption, which will remove the shorter wavelengths moreso than the longer ones. When you say that you want "to make the soundstage even larger", that can imply different things. Strong early same-side-wall reflections tend to widen the soundstage, but dipoles have a null to the side so that may not be practical. Greater soundstage depth and/or an increased sense of immersion in the acoustic environment on the recording is imo more likely to be feasible with appropriate frontwall treatment. I think you said your speakers are about 30" from the side walls. How much distance between the backs of your speakers and the wall behind them? Ime this distance plays a significant role in perception because it strongly influences the time delay between the first arrival sound and the strong onset of reflections. You mentioned that Clarisys uses a reflector behind their speakers at audio shows. Imo that makes a lot of sense. Have you heard them at audio shows? If so, what did you think? And, what do they suggest for your situation? I might be able to make some general suggestions based on your responses to these questions, but imo making specific acoustic treatment recommendations is something that I’ve learned to leave to the pros because they can make a MUCH bigger improvement than I can. If you don’t have anyone in mind I recommend Jeff Hedback of Hedback Designed Acoustics, he’s a multi-award-winning studio designer who also does home audio, and he’s still affordable. He works remotely. Duke dipole speaker dealer for 25 years, multidirectional speaker manufacturer for 16 years |
mijostyn,benandersThank you for your comments they are welcome and interesting but seem to be off track from my original question. I have learned that keeping my system simple is the best way. I no longer have a dac, preamp, etc. The signal goes from my Lumin X1 to my mono blocks- Clarisys speakers, which have internal crossovers for the treble ribbons and the midrange/woofers ribbon. I guess each type/brand of speakers has its own set up values and to me, the Clarisys speakers play best with minimum room treatments. BTW, my ceilings and walls are all internally insulated and covered with double 5/8" drywall. The floor is concrete covered by carpet with no padding. I am interested in diffusors because from what I have researched they are supposed to make the soundstage even larger. But I don’t know if that would be a plus, thus my initial post and question. ozzy
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@ozzy That is incorrect. The back wall reflection is their one big weakness. The design is so successful because it limits reflection from everywhere else except the back wall. Instead of having to worry about four walls, the floor and the ceiling you only have to worry about the front and rear walls. Line sources also project sound better. Sound diffusers are best used to kill echos, but again they only work well at higher frequencies. Bass traps are a total and complete waste of money. Four subwoofers is the best solution for bass problems. Analog crossovers, as you noticed are insufficient. The crossover has to be digital to do everything it needs to do. The problem is now you need four DAC channels instead of two. The MiniDSP crossover is excellent except for those DACs. You can use a MiniDSP SHD Studio and two stereo DACs, but that is going to cost $6 K. The DEQX Pre 4 is way more powerful than the MiniDSP, has fabulous room control functions and great digital bass management. It also Streams and has a MM phono stage designed by Dynavector. I own the Pre 8 which is the same unit with a 4 way crossover. You can triamp your speakers and run subwoofers. I just got a pair of step up transformers. Once I build the complete MC transformer I will comment on the phono stage. It will be a bit as I am still waiting for the Permalloy shielding. |
I intend no offense to SunCoast Audio as I don’t know them and have no conflict of interest, but that quote reads more like dealer promo than tutorial physics-based guidance. The Clarysis company website claims live rooms with walls of concrete or similar to be ideal, so your drywall @ozzy probably matters, and possibly not in an ideal way. A potential issue I see in the way these speakers are designed (basically one driver mechanism for all frequencies? Cool! And, hmmm…) is how they manage to balance the whole bandwidth at MLP distance. It’s known the +/- 3dB ratings given for speakers don’t always hold strong outside of the 1m measuring pocket, so if Clarysis are “down” meaningfully in part(s) of the lower frequencies then the benefit of using solid walls (concrete or the like, as recommended by the manufacturer) should be at least in part to reinforce the bass via strong room gain. If that scenario reflects (pun!) reality, then an active crossover and higher-crossed subwoofers might be more beneficial than they presently seem. You might also try laying down some large panels of wood on the floor between / in front of the speakers, to see what a more symmetric pair of vertical boundaries (bare ceiling and fooor) accomplishes. Just a thought in line with much of what I tried during setup for a similar sound. BIG sound is such good fun. |
This is a recent post from the Audio Sharks Forum by SunCoast Audio about the Clarisys speakers. "Clarisys are panels, dipoles, so the sound is coming out the front and back. It doesn’t care what’s on the side walls as its radiation pattern is unlike a box speaker or Omni. With Clarisys, unlike some of it’s competitors (or what some claim to be full ribbon - which are really Mylar in the bass), from the lowest note to the highest note, the driver material is identical. This creates a very coherent sound. The entire frequency range is one material." ozzy |
Ozzy - thanks for this discussion - I have been a fan of planer speakers since 1982. I have stuck with Magnapan all these years. Got my Maggie 1.6qrs modified by Peter Gunn when I retired 3 years ago. They keep improving - I guess there is a real issue on Maggie panels when they moved from copper wire to aluminum wire. My Maggie 1.7is do not compete on vocal and horn ‘quality’ vs the modified 1.6qrs. I also have worried about the ‘flat screen TV’ between both systems and it’s affect on sound stage, imaging and sound quality in general. I am also over the Moon happy with The Swarm subs with my Modified 1.6qrs. I am considering some sound absorption panels or a ‘blanket’ over the TV screen during ‘serious listening ‘ sessions. Mijostyn - I am a retired Chemist - not an Electrical Engineer - how do I cut off my Maggie’s at 100 hertz and let The Swarm take care of all the base requirements for my system? |
Thanks for the responses. From what I understand, the Clarisys speakers are designed to reflect sound forward and behind the speakers. They use the back wall reflection as part of the open audio design. The Planar design does not radiate any information to the side walls. I have the speakers about 30" from the side wall because the bass seems a little stronger. I have moved these 250 lb. speakers back/forward/ side to side/ toe in/no toe in and the present placement seems to be the best. I have also found that the 85" TV screen to also help deflect and improve the openness. I have tried sound absorbers in front of the TV and it seems to restrict the soundstage. The dealer, SunCoast Audio also advises using No absorption, and when they have them at shows they use some sort of reflective clear screen behind them to eliminate any absorption from drapes etc. So, I don’t know if these speakers are a different animal than typical Planar speakers, but reflection or diffusion seems to be the way to go. ozzy |
Planars do need to be toed in perhaps a bit more to get that sweet spot. Mine are toed in so they cross a few inches in front of me. Plus that eliminates them from directly reflecting off the wall in back of them. Cannot tell you about diffusers, but I tried absorbers in back of them. What that did was it took away the spacious sound of the dipoles and most of the soundstage as well. |