I listen to a lot of music. I had a mountain bike accident four years ago which has left me in wheelchair most of the day and I’ve had lots of time to try lots of different products. I’ve spent a decent amount of money looking for the magic that some people find bye changing different cables and PCs in their system. the best reason that I can gather is that at different times during the day your sinus cavities are different sizes depending on how much moisture is in the air. This directly affects what you hear, how the sound echoes through your head. There’s definitely a difference which could explain why people think that when you wait the cables will burn in. If you’re wondering how I figured this out is that after the accident I lost the use of my hands thus I cannot pick my nose. Sure this sounds gross but we all do it without realizing it. I have to have somebody help me clear my nose. This practice of having somebody else clear my nose has made it easy two realize the fact that music sounds different before and after this practice. That’s how I came to the conclusion that sinuses and sinus pressure have something to do with the cable war that has gone on for so many years.
Barometric pressure, whether you’ve just jumped out of the shower, or just blow your nose makes a difference in what you hear. The simplest experiment that I can think of is listen to your cables after being outside all day. Turn off your system, blow your nose and then listen to your system again. It will sound different if you really pay attention. I think the same thing happens when you listen to different cables, PCs etc. but nobody pays attention to these factors.
The laws of electricity are solid and have been around for over 100 years. If there were differences in electrical properties via different cables somebody would’ve figured out a way by now to classify the cables before you bought them. Basically different metals and shielding products would do different things to cables and you could chart this like you can chart Tone controls and equalizers. That way, you could walk into an audio store and I say to the sales person “ i’d like my system to have more high end, can you please direct me to a set of cables that are rated for more high end?” The way things are now it’s no different than throwing dice against a wall you have no idea what they’re going to do to your system. If cables were changing systems as science fact(like the rules of electricity ) Power cords and interconnects would be a science instead of a crapshoot.
how’s that for a crazy off-the-wall theory?
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I went with the Puritan PSM 156 because I don’t require more than a kilowatt of power at any device, and certainly not the nearly 1.4kW the power conditioner can deliver.
110VAC = approx. 69.96VDC after rectification .
so rounded up to 70VDC x 15A = 1050 Watts
70VDC x 20A (it has a 20A power cord that comes with it) = approx 1.4kW
So I have a two by 400Watt power amplifier, a fanless PC as a server, a DAC, a TV as my monitor and I’m way below that. It pays to do some math to work out your current load on your system, there's nothing wrong with overkill, and there's nothing wrong with having just a little more than you need either. I actually have 114.9VAC measured at the outlet, which equates to more Watts. The work done is the Voltage multiplied by the Amperes, or electrical pressure by the electron flow, known as Watts.
However, if the PI Audio UberBuss conditioner works better for less money, that’s remarkable, a remarkable deal indeed.
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@cleeds I agree that no one test can be held up as universally true. However, that doesn't explain why there is no apparent difference in sound when the new high-end cable is put into service? How can the improvement in sound not be obvious to everyone who listens? I live with the belief that every upgrade I've made to my system has provided a "small" improvement, while being hard/impossible to discern on it's own, the accumulated impact of many changes is much better sound. I have simply become accustomed to the results and so don't remember how lacking it was previously. This stops me from opening a vein when I think of the $$$$$ I've spent chasing the dream. Hmmmm, new Mercedes or a set of Legacy V speakers? ha ha ha |
cleeds3,919 posts07-25-2021 10:05am"If you think all power conditioners rely on inductors that compromise PF, you’re mistaken. You're also mistaken if you isolate PF as the most critical factor in delivering full power."
You seem to be making some very broad assumptions which are simply wrong. I'm well acquainted with series-mode and parallel-mode surge suppressors/conditioners and their design differences. You seem to have an argumentative nature. Is everything all right? |
The Puritan 156 was my 2nd choice. It is a very good unit. But I passed on it because it had (9000A) surge suppression chokes or the like and instead had an electrician install a Seimens FS140 with 140,000A protection at the breaker box.
I would look into PI Audio's UberBuss. It has independant outlets, a power factor correction of 1 and a non metal exterior box to eliminate Eddy currents and more. Each outlet handles 20A+( to Puritan's 15A). The UberBuss can actually output 40A+ spikes....It cost less than the Puritan and IMHO is a better power conditioner.
Get a Triode Wire Labs High Power Digital Ameican power cable with the $ you saved and you'll be in the best situation.
Look into the UberBuss before you buy.
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turnbowmFurman uses the term "Power Factor" while Audioquest calls it "Power Correction." I think you’re spending a little too much time reading manufacturer’s brochures and not enough time understanding what’s going on. Audioquest can use whatever marketing lingo it likes, but "Power Factor" is the accepted and proper term for describing the relative phase between voltage and current, which in residential environments is typically 1 or very, very close to it. ... energy storage is provided by large capacitors that can satisfy the dynamic current demands of power amps ... Yes, that’s what capacitors do. Without the caps, the very component (inductor) that limits the surge current also limits the dynamic current that is available to the amp. If you think all power conditioners rely on inductors that compromise PF, you’re mistaken. You're also mistaken if you isolate PF as the most critical factor in delivering full power. |
cleeds3,918 posts07-25-2021 8:57amturnbowmAn example would be a series-mode surge suppression/conditioner that doesn’t use Power Factor (energy reserve) technology. The result would be reduced dynamics and bass impact due to dynamic current-starving of a power amp. "That’s nonsense."
Furman uses the term "Power Factor" while Audioquest calls it "Power Correction." In both cases, energy storage is provided by large capacitors that can satisfy the dynamic current demands of power amps. Without the caps, the very component (inductor) that limits the surge current also limits the dynamic current that is available to the amp. Simply put, an inductor opposes changes in current flow and that presents a problem for power amps.
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bigtwin ... So
off with the $25 coaxial and on with the $500 one. The difference in
sound? Not a cintella of audible difference ... It would be a mistake to assume that the results you obtained with one simple experiment are universal.
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@raysmtb1 Thanks for that video link. I actually watched the entire 30 minutes. Although it pertained to audio signals being passed through various wires, I assume the results can be attached to PCs as well. I recently took the plunge and bought a $500 custom coaxial cable. In part based on all the postings on this site telling me there will be a big difference in sound, and partly on a long comparison of cables in Absolute Sound magazine. The reviewer tested 50+ cables and made his top three recommendations. In the review of the cable I choose, he claimed "the music danced like fire from the speakers". Well I ask you, who doesn't want that kind of result when you change out a cable. So off with the $25 coaxial and on with the $500 one. The difference in sound? Not a cintella of audible difference. Switched the cables back and forth. Identical results. And not just to me. To my wife and a few friends that have braved Covid to come over and listen. I'm still using the expensive cable because maybe the fire is there and I just need time to hear it. Sure that's it. I'll hear it later. It's only been a couple of months. Maybe the cables not burned in yet. Yeah, that's the ticket. |
turnbowmIf a power conditioner has a negative effect on sound. then it’s not a GOOD one. I think the real world is not so simple, even if your claim is made in ALLCAPS. For example, a system’s sound can be influenced by the exact location of the power conditioner relative to the other components, and it’s also possible that removing distortion may be heard as a loss of detail, even if the the signal is actually more accurate. Describing a sound as a "negative effect" is really subjective. An example would be a series-mode surge suppression/conditioner that doesn’t use Power Factor (energy reserve) technology. The result would be reduced dynamics and bass impact due to dynamic current-starving of a power amp. That’s nonsense. For one thing, in residential environments, electric utilities are very good at keeping PF very close to 1, which is the ideal. (You can easily measure this for yourself to confirm.) Even if the PF is slightly negative, you’re still likely to be able to pull 20A from a 20A line. PF is much more likely to be a problem in commercial areas where you have motors with inductive loads. Far more likely to be a power issue in residential environments is not PF, but the utility’s ability to deliver current on demand. For example, while you may have a 200A panel at your electric service entrance, that’s no assurance at all that the utility can actually deliver 200A to you. A prime benefit of power conditioners with energy reserves is ensuring power on demand; PF is only part of it. |
Your amp and/or power conditioners are designed to take the raw power, filter it, clean it, do all the other magic and then send the signal to your speakers. Ok, firstly amplification has no “magic”. IOW, Gandalf plays no role here. A power supply job is to rectify a 50-60Hz AC supply, rectify it and remove all ripple (read AC) from the DC output. An AC signal is not raw, nor is a DC signal cooked; Gordon Ramsey doesn’t play into amplification. Less noise on the AC source will ALWAYS result in less noise on the DC output from the power supply. ALWAYS and every time without exception. The amplifier stage then receives the DC supply and makes a copy of the input signal using the DC supply, which end up going down the speaker cables. If the DC supply coming from the power supply is not perfectly ripple free, your sound is compromised. How do we believe a 3 foot piece of cable, from the wall socket to the amp is going to change the sound coming out of the speakers? Because the “3 foot” cable acts as a filter and reduces noise from the AC before it enters the the amplifier’s power supply. The cleaner the AC that enters the power supply, the cleaner the DC will be that it produces. The cleaner the DC, the better the sound. The idea that a power cable won’t help, is pure ignorance. If you obtain understanding of how amplifiers work, it will become very clear why cables improve sound. |
WyWires is having a 10th anniversary sale. 40% off their platinum line. $1000 power cord for $600 is in your price range. I haven’t tried one before, just letting you know about the sale. |
I enjoyed @thyname ‘s post. I’ve thought for a while about how plumbing and electrical wiring are different. This explains why. Thank you! |
Hello, My recommendation would be a Puritan PSM156 power conditioner. $2300 sound like a lot. If I had a $500 system today I would buy this power conditioner knowing what I know. It is that good. I would like to know which piece of equipment you are putting this one PC on. Also what are the models of the rest of your gear. I am a music audiophile but more importantly an equipment or gear audiophile. So I have heard the differences in several cables. If your system is not resolving enough you may not hear the difference or you need to correct the power from the wall first. Just add better ground rods (2) 8’ deep to your main breaker box will go really far. That panel and system is designed for your A/C, dryer, oven. Not your audio gear. Also, get you line going to your gear off your A/C phase or your refrigerator. It does make a difference. For what your asking out of the blue is a Nordost Blue Heaven. This is under $400. Even on my Denon surround receiver it took it to another level. If this is an amplifier go with Nordost Red Dawn and Blue Heaven on everything else. If you get a little more money in your budget go with Straightwire Black Thunder or even better Pro Thunder on the amp or preamp. Then Blue Heaven on the rest. On an amp you really need AWG of at least 14 AWG. Otherwise it’s like trying to run a marathon while breathing through a straw. If it’s an integrated go with the Black Thunder. If you have a CD player, DAC streamer that sounds a little too digital or a class D amp that is a little too dry go with the Puritan Classic plus. Really nice cable for $240 that really expands the decay. If you are in the Chicagoland area this store is a dealer: https://holmaudio.com/They let you try before you buy. I have several types of systems in my house so yes, I have tested all of this and I have a really good ear. I hope this helped. There are dealers all over the world for all of these products. |
@vinylshadow
I just looked at the website. That is beautiful equipment. Thanks for turning me on to PI. Currently I'm still using a Niagara 1200 which was definitely needed in the condo setup. I went with the AudioQuest NRG-Z3 for the wall-to-device cord. When I started replacing the stock pcs, the dealer recommended Nordost Red Dawn. I could not detect a difference. I'm not saying there wasn't a difference but if there was, I could not hear it. If I'm being honest, I just liked the look of the Red Dawns so one by one I replaced the stock pcs. I do have a house I'm going to remodel and I plan on installing a dedicated 20a circuit in the
the hi fi room. I upgrade to the PI after all. Thanks vinylshadow
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Being conditioned to first check Amazon for what they offer in terms of brands, I recently searched for power cables. I had just come from a showroom demo of McIntosh offerings, which included an unexpected, eye-opening demonstration of why they were using a $1,000 power cable. I had never heard or even seen a modern McIntosh component and was impressed by the beautiful power cable I assumed was native to McIntosh. I learned it was a special cable because it "sounded better". I was a bit put off that I was potentially not hearing the true sound of what I was there to purchase, the MA-9000. It still bothers me a bit that maybe it’s assumed at this level(?) that you either already have a "worthy" power cable will be leaving with the cabling heard in the sound room. Anyway, I asked that the stock cord be fetched so I could AB them. In the end I was shocked, awed, educated and disappointed. Yes, disappointed. I now had to have worthy cable. After all, we all want perfection, right? We all want to not be responsible for holding back our big investments, right? It’s how I’m built, so I was off to Amazon. The MA-9000 was home and needed to "properly" tap the wall. It took two days of endless research and I decided to roll the dice on the following: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088T6P8YS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1I was sold on the image of how the cable is built / shielded, especially vs so many others. I have zero affiliation with Viborg or any other company in this industry. I’m simply a noob audiophile who recently dove into the hifi waters. Realizing I’ve written a wall of text, I’ll cut to the chase. The difference at my home between the stock cord and this were exponentially more significant than the store demo. The difference was not eye-opening, it was jaw-dropping in terms of better dynamics, power, volume and detail. It’s something I now show friends and I love seeing their reaction! This is the best purchase I’ve made for so little money. I do not need to hear another cable because I’m happy. The moral here is not to get a Viborg, but to test the waters before you spend big. There are diamonds in the rough. Best of luck. |
@zyphryx
If you are curious about a new power conditioner, take a look at PI Audio's UberBuss. Very reasonably priced and as good or better as much more expensive PWC's.
Also, the power cable to the power conditioner is the most important PC in the chain.
If you are able to get a 20A or 30A dedicated line installed from your breaker box to your equipment receptacle, you will notice a big sonic improvement.
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I haven't noticed any difference in my system. I did go with a power conditioner but the pcs did not appear to add or remove anything after that. I continued to replace the stock pcs with fancy ones but just to pimp the system a bit.
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Power cords are really pretty simple. They are filters. If you can't hear any difference between power cords, you either are 1) blessed with pristine power, due principally to your location in the world, or 2) are cursed with some component(s) in your stereo that is such an underperformer that it masks the improvement the power cord brings. I just switched from a $160 Pangea power cord on my Innuos Zen Mk III streamer to a $260 GR Research cord. At first, I was shocked. The soundstage collapsed from wider and deeper than my room to about 3' wide! It sounded like the music was in a tunnel. About 2 hours later (I'd left it playing), I was shocked again. The soundstage was back to it's original size and I suddenly had the most dynamic and tightly controlled bass I'd ever heard. It was not subtle. Better than much more expensive systems I've heard elsewhere. I couldn't stop listening for hours. GR Researches power cords are returnable for a full refund for 30 days. https://www.gr-research.com/power-cords.html |
Triode Wire Labs make great cables at reasonable prices. Maybe contact Pete and ask his opinion.
Pete uses very good connectors and his wiring is very good as well.
A CD player has a constant (low)current so you don't need a cable that can deal with high current transient spikes.
A Straight Wire Black Thunder II would also be a good choice and is around $500 I believe for a 1.5m length.
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Nordost blue heaven 1 meter power cord at 250 bucks is a very well made power cord, and for not a ton of money. |
There is repeated testimony that power cables can (not must) make a difference. The theory that *everyone* who claims to hear a difference is having placebo effect, a shill, not listening carefully is more dubitable than the claims for power cables. If I compare two theories and one is less fantastical, that's the one worth investigating. The "power cables can make a difference" theory is less fantastical than the "everyone is duped" theory. It is standard for old theories to find themselves tested by new phenomena which cannot be explained. That's why the sun is at the center of the solar system, and not the earth. |
I like to see new ones in the power cables battlefield. Still what connects to the power supply of a component is the starting point and not the finishing line.
You start from there and go all the way up to distribution panel. Simple. |
Try audioquest PC, pick any that suits your budget. They are all awesome |
You didn't really mention this but...are you already using an outboard DAC for your ARC CD3? If not, the addition of a good outboard DAC is going to make a lot more difference in the sound profile than changing the power cord. (And no, I'm not a PC naysayer; I've got my share of aftermarket PCs.) |
Hi bigtwin
Well said and you are absolutely correct.
You've done my job for me. I've replied to all power cord posts with what you say, namely electricity travels miles down cables and wires that don't belong to us and we cannot influence and some fools say that changing the last few feet can somehow clean up all the mess that lies before.
Hi thyname. The first shall be last. You're turning the world upside down just to try to evidence your misguided theories. Of course there are two wires and they both come from the power station.
As for the plug pluggers and the fuse fiddlers, words fail.... |
I bought speaker cables and IC from Triode Wire Labs and I am going to buy PCs from them, just need to save some... Ask the owner, he is a trustworthy real life down to earth expert. But I guess there are a few more. I would advice you to "buy the seller" not the product. |
Virtual Dynamics Power Three will bring you in under budget at $250-$300
You can thank me later. |
ii808ii
Signal Projects power cables are relatively unknown but are very impressive in terms of performance. I just got their Atlantis power cable and I was actually very surprised how much tighter and detailed all genres sounded. Soundstage was also noticeably better.
I am also looking at Signal projects. May I ask what cable you replaced to get the improvement from the Atlantis?
Rgds
Aubrey |
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Thanks Jim.
Ray,
I do not have a website yet (but am working on that with a website designer) & yes, you can have the same deal. Thanks for asking. |
I’ve listened to many different power cords in my system and yes they sound different with everything else being the same. Get a few and try them out. The most expensive ones don’t always win either, but your brain may convince your ears otherwise. |
Tim of Noteworthy is a great guy. @slaw has direct critical listening experience with his cables. |
Raysmtb, thanks for the link above to the youtube video. That was interesting.
Mike |
Do you have a site that I can check these out? Can I get the same deal? |
OP,
I can send you a "Noteworthy Acoustics" PC that will likely exceed your expectations. These use high quality Furutech connectors as well as passive filtering in the sheathing
(via various compounds)
to reduce static electricity & RFI/EFI issues. MSRP is $800 but if interested, will send you a 6' PC for $600. If it doesn't meet your expectations, send it back within 45 days for a full refund.
Disclaimer: I'm the owner of "Noteworthy Acoustics"
Best Regards |
@thyname, you got any ranch dressing for that word salad? Those quotes are complete and utter nonsense. And that bit about the PC being the first 3 feet as seen by the component is classic slick advertising.
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I would try an audio magic power cord they are incredible on source components.
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I tried different PC, didn't here anything earth shattering. The most expensive being synergetics blue. I then tried audio quest tornado and monsoon. Kept the monsoons for my 3 Amplifier's. They fit the best in my Parasound amps. All other PC are audio quest paid for with points from Amazon. |
Signal Projects power cables are relatively unknown but are very impressive in terms of performance. I just got their Atlantis power cable and I was actually very surprised how much tighter and detailed all genres sounded. Soundstage was also noticeably better.
Signal Projects also service a very wide price range with all of their different families. For your budget I would go with either the Monitor or the Lynx power cables. |
I’ve always made my own; using 16/3 old-fashion style fabric covered cable, hospital grade plugs & locking IEC connectors. While I’ll readily admit I can’t hear any differences between mine and the stock ones; mine definitely are a lot more attractive! And the materials are quite reasonable in cost. |
ghdprentice515 posts07-24-2021 4:40pm"A good power conditioner may improve the sound of your system, it may not… it may have a negative impact. As is nearly always the answer, it depends. It will depend on your power grid and system. Some people do best without. Just to retest mine, I took mine out and used a Cardas power distributor…only took a couple minutes to put my power conditioner back in."
If a power conditioner has a negative effect on sound. then it's not a GOOD one. An example would be a series-mode surge suppression/conditioner that doesn't use Power Factor (energy reserve) technology. The result would be reduced dynamics and bass impact due to dynamic current-starving of a power amp. |
A good power conditioner may improve the sound of your system, it may not… it may have a negative impact. As is nearly always the answer, it depends. It will depend on your power grid and system. Some people do best without. Just to retest mine, I took mine out and used a Cardas power distributor…only took a couple minutes to put my power conditioner back in. |
bigtwin,
A good power conditioner does far more to improve sound than an expensive power cable. The Furman Elite/Reference and Audioquest Niagra 3000 (and above) are good examples.
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@turnbowm My Furman power conditioner, weighing in at 100 pounds, has a huge storage of power to meet any demand from my amp. It contains all the circuity to filter, balance and isolate every outlet to prevent ground loops. (I hope I'm using all the right terminology). Not sure what the PC brings to the table. As asked before, does any manufacturer of PCs claim their product "cleans" the power source? If not, is the best PC in the world not simply passing through all the problems inherent the average home power supply? |
You guys keep posting about the “last 5-6’ of expensive power cords” at the end of miles of Romex. That’s a huge misconception, and wrong. Perhaps confirmation bias? You know, that works both ways. https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.
Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”
Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.
Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects. "Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”
Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.” |
bigtwin,
I’ve experimented with Audioquest and Pangea power cables of various flavors on my Bryston B60R Integrated Amp and it doesn’t care what I feed it with. When I think of the cheap service panel, circuit breakers and Romex cable to the outlets, it’s unreasonable to think that 5-6 feet of expensive power cables is going to make a significant difference. Bryston and Pass have long-maintained that there is NO benefit in replacing the stock power cables with "boutique" ones. Perhaps the robust design of the power supplies in Bryston and Pass equipment explains their indifference. |
You could keep the Polestar and simply upgrade the plugs. I checked another post from you and it looks like those power cords use the Oyaide 029. Going to the 046 or 004 should increase detail and improve the soundstaging. I think the 004 is the more dynamic of the plugs though it is also the more likely to become aggressive sounding in the wrong system. Still, either should be a rather obvious improvement and fairly cost effective. Another great plug option coinciding with your indicated preferences would be the IeGO 8095. I've tried several other IeGO plugs and the 8095 is in another league altogether. |
Well, what can I say, you tried, power cords did nothing for you. I am surprised, but it is what it is. We all hear (or don’t) differently. It appears you appreciate the cables in general. I used to own XLO (Signature and Reference) many years ago. Oldie but goodie for sure. Enjoy the music and good audio, whatever path you choose to get there does not matter |
