Audioengr...talk with Roger Sanders at Innersound and tell him that power cord made a difference with his amp..I wish I could hear his reaction when he hears/reads that...now, how do I suppose to know which power cord is the "right" power cord?....i wish someone could publish a list of "right" power cords and "not-so-right" power cords...i'm sticking to my beliefs: a well-designed/made power amp does not need a power cord...
Audioengr...I will check out your source for large gage hookup wire, and will use it if possible.
On a slightly different matter...I have heard a million times about the wonderful effect of "oxygen-free copper", but I don't recall any explanation of why ordinary copper is a problem. Can you tell us?
I don't know anything about oxygen-free copper, but I can tell you I bought 4 pairs of oxygen-free copper interconnects, with gold plated rca's, from 1 to 4 meters yesterday. They ranged from $.75 to $3.00 on clearance at Walmart. They also had a decent gauge and nice cover. So I wouldn't think one should pay too much for the privilege of oxygen-free. In addition, some right to lifers might find it cruel to sufficate all those little copper strands.
Eldartford - 99% of modern copper wire is oxygen-free. It's mostly marketing bruhaa.. There are a few examples of poor wire, but if you use a reliable source like Belden, Alpha or Carol, it's all good stuff.
Now, if you want the best-sounding wire, you should try continuous-cast copper. This is good metallurgy. you can get this at vampirewire.com.
Iasi - I understand that Roger contracted Coda Technologies to design the Innersound amp for him. Same guy that designed the Coda and Continuum amps. I have heard from one of my dealers that Roger is not a cable believer, however he does spec a low-capacitance cable for his speakers.... It is hard enough to convince believers.......
Audioengr, i believe in speaker cables and in interconnects as i've herd differences between diff. cable manufacturers...and i believe in power cables for SOME applications, but not in all of them...happy listening!
Due to the design of the Innersound amp, which is somewhat similar to the older Threshold's in terms of design theory for the active circuitry but not power supply, the amps will go into oscillation and self-destruct if you use a high capacitance speaker cable with them. That is, if you don't use Impedance Compensation networks with the high capacitance speaker cables. Roger does not like very high capacitance speaker cables and, from what i've been told, thinks that they are an "abomination" of some sorts. I've also been told that running very high capacitance speaker cables ( like Goertz ) with the Innersound amps will void your warranty. Sean >
Audioengr: According to Phelps Dodge research dept. continuous wire is more of an exercise in marketing than reality. Once the wire is bent it has as many fissures as any other copper wire. Remember, copper is a crystal and all crystal structures are brittle.
Does it make sense to use greater than 12 gauge for the power cord since the outlet itself to the breaker box is only 12 gauge? In most cases bigger is better. However, if the outlet can only give you 20 Amps then what's the point of using a 30 Amp power cord since your device is drawing less than 6 Amps anyway?
Anyone did A/B test with 12 gauge vs 10 or 8 gauge? I've compared 12 vs 14 and it doesn't make much difference. 12 gauge seems to give slightly better bass than the 14 but not by much. From my own A/B test, the difference is no greater than 2~3%.
S23chang: The longer the run, the more series resistance. The longer the run, the greater the voltage drop. As such, heavier wire will never hurt you ( other than the pocketbook ) and can only help. You have to remember that some people may have runs in their house that are 100 foot long or longer. To top it off, some product do pull way more than 6 amps of current, i.e. high bias power amps of good size. Couple these with low impedance speakers that are low efficiency and you've got an instant "power sucker" all ready to go. There are amps on the market that can drink everything that a 15 or 20 amp circuit can deliver when being pushed hard. Besides that, building for "worst case scenario" right now covers you for any changes made in the future. The difference in cost right now would be nothing compared to what it would cost to re-string new, heavier gauge wire at a later date.
14 gauge should be fine for any line level components. I would recommend at least 12 and preferably 10 gauge for an amp. Really big amps may benefit from 8 gauge, especially if you have a long run. If running everything from one dedicated line, use the heaviest gauge feasible. Sean >
S23chang...Voltage drop aside (because that depends on how long the wire is) 12 gage wire is acceptable (building codewise) for circuits that draw 20 amps CONTINIOUSLY. This is based on the wire not getting too hot. It will actually carry much higher current, and even the 20 amp fuse or breaker that the 12 gage wire is supposed to have will carry 30 amps for quite a few seconds...and longer if it is a slow-blow or time delay type.
S23chang, I don't know about all the EE stuff, but higher and lower gauge cables do sound different and has different effects on different types of component ie digital front end and amps.
One anomaly I found is I like higher gauge on digital and modest gauge on amps.
Thank you Sean. I guess there is no point for me to change from 12 to 10 since I don't really have a dedicated line for my stereo system. The power cord I need is only less than 3 ft long anyway. Like what I observed from 14 to 12, there probably will not be much difference from 12 to 10 in this case.
Sean - what I heard from Roger (via my dealer) is that he is concerned about the capacitance of the speaker cable resonating with the transformer windings of the speaker. I don't believe he is concerned much about the amp oscillating. I believe Roger has a treatise about this on his website.
Corona, I agree with you completely. My brother is a metallurgical engineer with 25 years experience. He has taught me a lot about this. This is why the wire needs to be fabricated properly and handled carefully in the assembly process. This is how my "Perfect Crystal" stays perfect.
S23Chang - the equivalent wire gauge is what is important, not the gauge of a single wire. Low inductance cords are always made using multiple wire to get that low inductance. Resistance is only one piece of the pie. Inductance must be low as well and larger gauge just does not get this for you.
Audioengr: I was trying to work through a problem with someone that had Innersound speakers. During the height of their problems, they called up and spoke to Roger. In passing, they mentioned that they were using Goertz speaker cables. At this point, Roger just about came unglued and went on a rampage about high capacitance cables and stated that using such products would void the warranty on their power amps.
As one might realize, his amps are built by Coda for him. Some of the folks designing Coda gear also helped in the design of older Threshold products. Since Threshold products are sensitive to high capacitance cables, it would only make sense that the same designers might end up with similar results on the Coda product line.
Having said that, i've not had any problems running Goertz cables with ANY amp. This includes, but is not limited to, Threshold products. That is, so long as the proper precautions ( Zobel Network ) are taken. Those that disregard these speaker cables out of fear or ignorance are missing some very good yet "reasonably priced" cables in my opinion. That is, if one likes their system and recordings to sound like music rather than processed data.
As a side note, i just installed a set of Goertz MI-2 Veracity cables in my Father's system yesterday. These replaced some Audioquest's that i had previously brought over for him a while back. In his own words, "My system has NEVER sounded this good". I would have to agree. There is now a far more "liquid" and "natural" presentation to the sound that i haven't found with any other cable. Sean >
I don't know what Corona is specifically speaking of, but i'd love to have this subject expounded upon in a more specific manner. Along with Kool39's question, consider me the second party that would like Corona to further discuss the thoughts expressed earlier in this thread. Sean >
Viggen: That is exactly what I ment. The companies you mentioned should have warning label "PLEASE DO NOT BEND". It does not matter, their overall design/performance is so bad they have been the object of many jokes created by our independent evaluation groups.
Corona, can you please go into a lot more detail on that last one. What parameters does your group measure, what parameters does it think are relevant, how does it correlate them with sound or with other system parameters, and where does it publish it's results?
I am sort of surprised at the results that your evaluation group came up with since the constant casting process only considers and improves on the crystallization process that metals go through during its cooling process and not the amount of fractures it does or does not reduce. In fact, from the X-ray photos I've seen on some Asian websites that market CC, the metals actually already have numerous fractures in them. It is merely the minimalization of stray crystallizations that seems to benefit the sonic attributes of the metal in question since these stray crystals allegedly distort the signal transfer process. However, I am not EE so who knows.
Parameters: When doing a cable A-B if one cable allows you to hear: The background insruments as obvious as the presentation in the foreground,the singer's voice is so well articulated every word is crystal clear,the quality of the instruments being used as well as the projected technique and skill of the virtuoso,ambient reflections do the size of the hall. Why stop there? One cable allows your transistor amp to run 12 degrees cooler while there is a 6db increase in volume measured at the speaker because its design does not generate loss. The people who have just experienced the demonstration could care less about "published results" they have just received a healthy dose of reality. Now I have a question for you. Do you think there experiences in life that are self evident?
So putting all things aside and the nit pick. I was a industrial as well as a medical x-ray technician for a number of years. So all this metal wire which is cryoed, constant casted, solid vs. stranded, welded, soldered and crimped still has stress fractures in the wire and in the weld or solder joint. I can't even believe that some companies have gone to welding the wire to plugs. So as the metal expands and contracts with temperature variations and humidity, as it is bent in the application it is meant for, as it ages and becomes more brittle. What does all this falderal buy us. Not a darn thing except something neat to talk about.
all experiences can be broken down into apriori fragments or so kant would say. and, as descartes would say, apriori is self evident. Thus, would the essence of experience be lost if there is no self evidence?
Michaelhwolf: You are starting to get it! The answer has nothing to with the things you just outlined. Try this: take all your audio cables and tie them together while still connected to your equipment. Play your system, the hazy sound you will hear is field contamination. Would it not be correct to say the field inside the cable is just as degrading as the field that bleeds to the outside? Now, there is a solution to this problem but that is for another time.
Corona, I understand what you are saying although you are very vague in your answer. So what is the point? Yes I know their is a solution, which hopefully will soon be a patented process.
Hahaha... as i've said before, it's too bad we can't get people together and "talk shop" without being afraid of losing what they consider "proprietary knowledge". While everybody has their "trade secrets", and i'm sure that some of these are quite ingenious, i don't think that any individual / group of individuals has ALL the answers. That's why it is great to be able to pick and choose the best ideas of the lot and incorporate them into your own DIY designs : ) Sean >
A solution to what exactly? Corona, if there is field theory involved in your 'pulse' idea, I certainly hope there is an IEEE-level white paper with theory, modeling and measurements to back it up.
Why do I feel the world's next $2500 power cord coming on?
Corona: Are you involved with the marketing, design, production, sales, etc.. of any type of audio based product ? Given the fiasco that came of the ART amplifier thread, we might as well get this type of thing out in the open right away when someone starts making BIG claims about a product.
If you have no vested financial interest in this product, and it is already being demo'd to various individuals and / or groups, how about sharing the make / model of this product with us ? We are all on the hook, now start reelin' us in : ) Sean >
Gentlemen, these are exciting times. At this moment the worlds first super conductive power transmission cable is being laid from New York to New Jersey. This cable will convey 5 times more power than a conventional design. The problem with this technology involves the use of a super coolant, highly impractical for home use. To my knowledge we are the first company to develop a limited application of Room Temperature Super Conductivity, and yes it works! No, the cables do not sell for $2500; the price range is $650-$850 for a 5 cable. To keep the price affordable the many parts and fabrications are all designed for a 5 length. Any deviation from 5 is a custom length and requires additional tuning. Every foot [+ or -] changes the tuning but once it is set there is practically no degradation due to length. Another plus, the design is so effective it eliminates the need for dedicated power lines. If you already have one it is still a plus but not to the degree it is with conventional cables. The Company who produces this cable has existed almost exclusively through in-home demonstrations. For six years we have specialized in selling results. During that time a very important fact has been learned; skeptics make the best customers. As you have already noticed I love to talk technology. However, industry marketing does not work for us, wed rather show than tell, but time and distance often makes that impossible. The Company you ask about is named after the large cactus with arms that grows in the Arizona desert, Sahuaro Audio. The featured dealer who advertises on Audiogon is AudioLon. Audio Excellence does not advertise here but has been a long time dealer. The showcase dealer, Perrotta Consulting will soon be acquiring our line of cables.
A web search shows no current technology that supports room temperature superconductors, even in lab conditions. Maybe you should take a few thousand feet of it to New Jersey and save them the cooling bill.
Twl: You said,"A web search show no current technology that supports room temperature superconductors,even in lab conditions." What planet are you living on? Try this for starters: sciencedaily.com, ecjonesw.org,geocities.com,eurekalert.org,iea.org,futuresience.com,energyscience.co.uk,phy.hw.ac.uk,colorado.edu,rhic2physics.wayne.edu,vjsuper.org I can list at least 50 more if you run out of material.
I went to your first link, and found no superconductors that operate over 140-160 degrees Kelvin, even under high pressure. Room temp is 295 Kelvin. Another of your links, Futurescience.com has superconductor kits that state this: "All superconductor kits require liquid nitrogen. Do not order these superconductor kits unless you know how to obtain and handle liquid nitrogen." Several other of your links don't work.
I cut-and-pasted an article here from www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/Physics/0003/p01422d.html
Here's the article from ScienceNet.(copyright 2003)
Question: Is it true that superconductors have been developed that work at room temperature, but they are not being used so as not to upset the global economy?
We contacted a number of experts regarding your question on superconductivity. Here’s what they have to say: “Well, no! The maximum critical temperature is still around 120K, with no real sign of increasing. Any scientist would be guaranteed instant fame and fortune, including a Nobel Prize, for discovering such a superconductor. No one would keep it quiet out of a (misplaced?) concern for the global economy. There is no example in history and many counter examples. Besides, it is not obvious that it would have such an effect!”
“The highest temperature superconductor is a mercury based cuprate with a Tc of about 140K rising to 160K under high pressure.
Practical superconductors using the new high temperature superconductors are all based around YBa2Cu3O7- and Ytrium based cuprate with a Tc of 90K. This is because enough material science work has been done to be able to manufacture wires and thin films which carry large currents.
These are being used already in microwave applications for high Q resonators- particular for the communication industry. They are also being used in wires for some power applications.
Along side the development of high temperature superconductors has been the development of low cost refrigeration units using the Joule-Kelvin effect which can cool large volumes to below 100K....this is to make the superconductors economically viable.
If there is a high temperature superconductor with Tc at room temperature there would be no reason to keep it a secret unless you were developing it for applications and wanted to keep it under wraps until you had solved the immense problems of turning a new material into a useful material.”
“Before 1986, the 'record high' for a superconducting phase transition temperature was 23.2 K (-249.8°C) for a material based on Nb3Ge (in 1973).
Since 1986, the record highest reached superconducting transition temperature has been ~135 K (-138°C) for a Mercury based material. To date this temperature has only increased to a maximum of ~158 K (-115°C). However, this temperature was achieved by placing the material under a large pressure.
So called commercial high-temperature superconductors (based on YBa2Cu3O7) generally operate at a transition temperature around ~100 K (-173°C). If you consider room temperature to be 295 K (22°C), you can see that at present superconductors are far from the room temperature operating regime.”
And finally, at least one of our experts has a sense of humour: “I have nothing to add except the temptation to say that these superconductors were used by Elvis Presley to kill President Kennedy!” END
Perhaps I'll need a few more of those links you have. Or how about just a cut-and-pasted article for all of us to read about this significant breakthrough in technology. PS - I am aware of the new diamond/oxygen process which is currently not fully proven, but being looked at.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for improvements and new technology. But claiming room temp superconductors for cables needs to be verified, for me to accept these claims. I'm even willing to accept near-room temp superconductors, or room-temp near-superconductors. Show us something.
First,you said there was no information on room temperature super conductivity and now your quoting it. I would love share this development with all, but you don't post ten years of hard work on the internet and expect to stay in business,get real! Listen to the cables if they are not everything I say they are then post that in this forum.
Twl: Have you been entangled with a large corporation,it a long way from fun. We have seen nothing but back order since the introduction of this new product,we are getting orders from people who have never seen the cables. They are creating a great deal of excitement so I thought it would be fun to share a little in this forum, that is what this venue is all about? In the past the D.E.O. has inquired about our products but that's another story.
Eldartford: I think that you should pick up a set from one of the dealers that Corona mentioned on a 15 - 30 day trial basis and use these "super cables" as a comparison against your stock cables. Using an FFT to analyze these cables will leave NO room for excuse should they not do exactly what Corona states. Sean >
Nothing new really. However, the reason that superconductors are of great interest is for transmitting data, not for 60 cycle AC current. That's like saying you inted to put dual 250 hp. outboards on an 8 foot boat. Comon, lets not get star treky here.
Corona: As i previously stated, if this product is already for sale, people are ordering it, etc... WHY can't you provide at least a link to information on this product or materials that go into making this product ? Even if it only contains generic info that one would find in a "sales brochure", that would be better than the "NOTHING" that you have provided thus far. Sean >
PS... We have had "wires" that have been called "superconductors" around for a relatively long period of time. These "wires" offer far lower resistance than any of those commonly used and do not require low temperatures for increased conductivity. While they may not be of the same levels being discussed here, they are MUCH better than anything that we are using for audio purposes. Problem is, these wires are PHENOMENALLY expensive per foot, are stiff as hell and require a very large bend radius. If someone were using wires like this as a base conductor for audio cables, i might be able to justify the "mega dollar" expenses involved in some of these "Salon" type cables.
Ok, have fun. If people are that gullible, you have every right to hook them. If the cable sounds better than others, then it will stand on its own merits regardless of the technology.
Now, I hate to be smug here, but with all the discussion that's been going on here with Corona (and really, I wish that much Secret Agent research was being done in, say, petroleum alternatives than audiophile power cords), I think I'm getting much more musical enjoyment working through Keith Jarrett's "My Song" on the piano.
Mind you, an ACOUSTIC piano that doesn't benefit at all from a superconductor power cord.
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