Restored my dads R2R but no tape loop on integrated
My dad found his old Teac A-3300SX-2T in storage and I’m having it restored currently. I wanted to do some recording from my TT and eventually from a CD transport as well if I end up adding one. My integrated is a Cambridge Audio CXA81 with no tape loop (only a pre-out option).
I found a few models like the Sony SB500 or Akai DS-5. My thought was to connect the Teac input/output to ‘Tape 1’, phono stage output to ‘Tape 2’ and output from ‘Source’ to a line input on my integrated. Would this introduce any type of feedback loop while recording?
This would save me from moving cables around but it also means that my TT signal is always passing through the switch even when listening to it directly. I’ve read that these older switches are prone to oxidization and require some cleaning usually as well as constant exercising of the switches.
I wouldn’t want to potentially degrade the sound quality of my primary listening source to allow recording to a R2R
Phonostage direct to R2R?
The other option would be connecting my phonostage output directly to the Teac whenever I want to record. But this would involve the hassle of swapping phonostage output from integrated to r2r and back. Also I would only be able to monitor the source using the headphone out on the Teac and the built in output selector switch.
Rethink CXA81?
Is there another option available outside of completely rethinking my choice of integrated amplifier? The R2R holds more sentimental value than anything so I feel like it would be silly to start swapping major components for an unexpected add-on.
@elliottbnewcombjr I was looking into the RLC-1 this weekend and got turned onto passive preamps. I like the idea of using dual mono step attenuators (like Khozmo products) as a method of adjusting for channel imbalance. Lots to consider in getting a passive preamp system right so i’m going to stick with what I have for now.
On the positive side, using the dual outputs on my phono preamp has worked out great. I have the XLR output of phono stage connected to input A1 on my Cambridge, RCA output of phono stage connected to Teac, and the Teac outputs plugged into input A2.
I’ve tested switching back and forth between A1 & A2 inputs, listening to the TT direct or through the tape deck (with Teac output selector switches set to ’Source’). There’s no feedback that I can hear.
In fact its been nice listening to the TT routed through my tape deck because it allows me to use the Teac’s balance controls to deal with the channel imbalance issue I have. I’m not able to hear much of a difference in quality vs direct from XLR but getting the vocals centered makes a huge difference in listening experience.
It’s a temporary fix until I upgrade my turntable and can delve into properly adjusting all parameters. I was planning on a restored Thorens with heavier effective mass tonearm and something like a Hana EL or another low/mid compliance cartridge. The entry level pro-ject i have is designed as plug&play and would be challenging to properly tweak.
Chase RLC-1, $62. USD is a great price, you will love it, for any lp or individual track from your listening position!!! Same for any CD or Digital that has an imbalance, especially 'Greatest Hits' and compilations with tracks from many different original engineers, and who knows what happened later by someone with a cold that day effecting hearing in one ear ... late in their life when they didn't realize they had a problem.
@fuzztone Test mono record is a good idea for understanding offset but again, the imbalance is never consistent across records so i think finding a baseline adjustment on R2R wouldn’t work in my case.
The reason for suspecting something other than cartridge is how often the imbalance appears on thicker records. I do have older LPs from my dad that sit pretty much direct center. Newer, remastered LPs are usually the disappointing ones - Led Zepplin I remastered by Jimmy Page is awful, Robert Plant sounds like hes singing from 2 o’clock and incredibly bright at a suitable listening volume. Sometimes i wondering if my left speaker was even working when i listed to that album initially.
Not ruling out cartridge or any other issue but I’ve done quite a bit of reading and its a never ending deep dive into misinformation, this method vs that method, etc and in the end I don’t want to get lost in all that...It seems that no matter what info you find on any topic there will always be someone in opposition. I purchased a USB mic (miniDSP) and using REW to try out some testing but again, so much conflicting info online and I’d rather not blow $700 on Adjust+ or something else.
Thanks for tips on setting levels, I picked up the restored R2R yesterday and the technician gave me some info as well. Did not think about speakers having an effect on the tape!! So I probably would’ve made that mistake early on
@elliottbnewcombjr That RLC-1 looks interesting. In hindsight, i would happily trade the built in DAC on my integrated for a simple tape loop and basic balance/tone controls, a much simpler fix than trying to meet many different parameters for an audio format that’s inherently flawed. Getting exact azimuth/vta/vtf/anti-skate/etc is great until the record is slightly warped, slightly thicker, slightly dirty, etc. Why chase such exacting parameters when most cartridges do not have perfect azimuth when received, do not have perfect balance between channels? Its fruitless and in the end I really just wanted to enjoy listening to records not make it my whole life pursuit.
I’ve used a blank test record and had to add extra weight to the fishline antiskate system on my Pro-ject just to keep it from pulling towards the center. Only to find it did not correct the error and possibly made it worse. Then i took anti-skate completely off and couldn’t notice much of a difference but it sounded as if the balance had improved!? Maybe VTF needs to be adjusted accordingly? Some people don’t even believe antiskate is needed and a heavier VTF yields better results. I’ve watched the azimuth of the cartridge during playback but again, records are so imperfect that it’ll tilt to the left, then to the right on each revolution so I can’t understand the logic of trying to get those parameters somehow “perfect”. Even finding the “right” test record that has a properly centered spindle hole, etc is hopeless - any recommendation you find there will always be a conflicting one.
I don’t expect my ears to be very discerning, not much experience with hifi up until a few months ago but channel imbalance is something thats definitely distracting. Having a balance control somewhere in my chain would allow me to fix that quickly for each record i listen to and avoid wasting hours and hours on the TT adjustments.
@oldhvymec Thanks for the info on EQ, i will probably stick with the adjustments available on my R2R for the time being. If I can correct for channel imbalance that alone would make the tape an improvement over LP.
oldhvymec As usual you make little sense. The OP expressed interest in recording vinyl not remastering it. Period.
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I know, that's when you spouted off and said
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A "true" tape loop has nothing to do with EQ."
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Of course you took it out of context. I said EQ down stream before the recorder/tape. You can master a tape that's the whole point. To what DEGREE do you want to record?
A Remix is considered a master cut IF you wind up with an original when you're done.. Isn't it? I thought that was the point..
No matter the reason I wish the OP the best results, I was just offering what a TAPE LOOP was for. Not what you use it for.. There is more than one way to create a loop.. In this case for Tape recordings.. No different than for a CD. A dozen ways to spit those out too..
Most Macs still have tape loops, my C2500 does "Record in" and "Record out". Has onboard EQ for three types of tape EQs to..
If your integrated has a processor loop, that will work the same as a tape loop. To think that I gave away both a Teac and Sony R to R and a Sony ES DAT recorder 10 years ago kills me to this day. I never thought tape would make a comeback.
Even when everything is perfect, many a track, analog or digital, is slightly off and a very small balance tweak can make a surprising improvement, to both imaging and individual instrument/voice distinctions.
I love my Chase Remote Line Controller RLC-1, it's remote volume and remote balance a wonderful thing! None for low price now it seems.
S/N 120 db, no one can tell if it is in or out, I just went thru the same in/out listening process when I bought my Oppo CD player, and it just invisibly does it's thing. Intellectually, I want the simplest chain, but functionally, at no detriment, I'd be crazy to deny myself remote balance. .........................................
It's good you know the system, the problem is only somewhere in the TT path.
It might be anti-skate as you suspect,
doubt it's VTA causing balance issue no matter what thickness LP is.
Could be a cartridge pin wire, DIN pin, rca jack, cable. Tedious, but get a piece of paper, draw the path, check/change only one thing at a time,
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buy one of these, helps with cartridge alignments,
and, for left/right balance: is it my anti-skate???? the smooth side will definitely let you SEE the effect of anti-skate adjustments as you make it. Spin manually, watch, adjust, spin, couldn't be easier.
After a week, re-check, is the arm holding it's tracking and anti-skate settings? That's why I prefer the dangling weight, pure gravity. ..................................
this LP (get the CD also) side 2, tracks 2 and 3, (you hear all 3 guitarists on those 2 tracks), it is my final anti-skate tweak, very revealing.
The channel imbalance that you notice is due to the cartridge. I have seven carts that range from -.6 to +1.1 dB.(left) If you can’t balance it in the phono preamp (like I can) you will have to do it with the record settings. (Unless your goal is to preserve imperfection) Take a test record with stereo balanced pink noise or a mono LP to get a feel for the offset required. I used to record LPs setting max levels for the loudest part of the side (some search required) and then just let her rip. Do you have peak LEDs with your VUs? If so it’s easier to set max level. Try some recording some acoustic like guitar or piano and see how much flashing (saturation) your ears can handle. Remember that loud signals also cause "print through." There is always a trade off between tape noise on the floor and distortion on the ceiling. Your job is maximize the fit in between, balanced. You can mitigate this with a dBx compander or dBx ll but this is a trade off also. If you use dBx ll you ALWAYS need it for playback which is a p.i.t.a. because they used cheap ass switches that often fail for one or more channels. I also used to record the needle drop and go back and record mute over it up to the start of the program. Make sure you hand demag the heads often or you will end up with DC "bias" on your tapes. Either routinely or upon checking with a magnetometer. DO NOT lay tapes on speakers (same thing) A splicer is recommended for maintenance (leaders etc.) If you do much recording I recommend you become familiar with setup, and acquiring test tapes - setup is dynamic. My deck has test tones built in.
@elliottbnewcombjr So much good info! I got lucky with the model being what it is, he also apparently had a Revox that saw more use so the tape heads on this one have very light wear. Appreciate the offer on tape, I discussed with the technician and will be using SM911 @ 7.5ips so the unit is being calibrated for +6 bias tape and 1.5mil thick. The 15ips is nice to have but seems more suited for mastering.
I’m still wrapping my head around the workflow for adjusting levels before a recording but that is definitely helpful. Would it make sense to adjust levels for L & R separately or together?
My turntable is entry level (Project debut carbon evo) and I notice a channel imbalance often, mainly when playing 180g records. The vocals are rarely centered, always shifted to the right. It's not a system wide issue because everything sounds centered on digital. There’s an underlying problem, either VTA or antiskate or other - I’ve tried a lot. Its my first table and I know that i’ll eventually upgrade to a better one so i’ve given up tinkering with it. Recording to tape would allow me to even that out a bit i guess?
@fuzztone Yea i’m happy with that setup for the time being! You’re saying I’d have to replug (unplug?) even using the dual outputs on the phono pre (RCAs to R2R & XLRs to integrated)? Since i’m primarily using the TT for playback i’ll prob keep the phono pre's RCAs unplugged from R2R except when recording anyways.
If it is a two track make sure that all your tapes are stored tails out. i.e. rewind to the beginning before each use. NEVER store a tape in fast wind mode.
Good luck to you.As long as you are careful you can live without a tape loop. But one sure makes it easier. I would really like to move up from my two preamps to one good one.
oldhvymec As usual you make little sense. The OP expressed interest in recording vinyl not remastering it. Period.
@atmasphere True dat but we never talked of recording live. Please ask Cookie are Blue Coast why she abandoned tape early this century. You need good mics, great mic preamps and EXP. 10K hours should do ii.
@jvonoldershausen Your proposed setup is best. You avoid bleed AND sell switch coloration. You still have to replug for vinyl only sessions.
I'm going to sell the few new tapes I have left. Too old to record live bands and everything else is pretty much available now. Playlists are easier to make than mix tapes.
Luckily my integrated at least has a fixed pre-out....my tape deck is 3 head and has its own tape monitor switch. I use my headphones plugged into the deck's headphone jack to monitor. It's unfortunate that manufactures did away with a true tape monitor loop. The only one I've seen on a current integrated is the Luxman.
That deck is amazing, I had one S version, and your SX version.
The tape recorder automatically does the Tape EQ process during recording and during playback, so you can play it into any line level input. A pre-recorded tape will have been pre-equalized, and will be re-equalized by the recorder during playback.
It has EQ and Bias switches for two different tape types that existed back then: either NORMAL or HIGH (low noise/high output tape).
Recording source direct to tape inputs: You will VERY LIKELY be successful, you have meters and individual volume control for each track for both inputs while recording, and for output when playing. Start with your inputs turned down, you want to do a level test without blasting the meters and internals. You also have MIC inputs and individual volume controls for them.
You want as strong a signal as possible without distortion, the content 'above' the tape's inherent noise. Don't be afraid to let the needles jump into the red some while recording, or playback, just don't over-do it. You use your amp's volume for the speakers. Some tapes were purposely recorded with one track slightly stronger than the other, so always play a segment listening/watching your meters, balance them, start over. ...................................
My 2 track stereo tapes are my best sounding source. They have twice the magnetic material of later 4 track tape. That deck also has the pro speed 15 ips as well as 7-1/2 ips (no 3-3/4 ips).
However, it is ’half track’, a dedicated 2 track head, with wider tracks than modern 4 track tapes. You can record stereo in one direction, and play what you record. You can play ONLY 2 track tapes, either ones you make, your father previously made, or VERY OLD (I have some) pre-recorded 2 track stereo tapes. Stereo in one direction, rewind. They existed beginning 1956 and ended when 4 track became popular, so content is limited by that era.
Another option is two independent mono tracks: either
a. same direction, turn one or the other track’s volume to zero (this deck has a separate on/off switch for each track); lots of rewinding involved; or
b. two mono tracks, different directions. use one track, record, flip tape, using the same head, record on the 2nd track the other direction.
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Buying tape: do some research, some vintage tapes had shedding issues. I have extra blank tapes (nothing special) if you want a few to mess with, send me a message, I'll send them. If you find you stick with it, then get high quality tapes.
At least when you stick your foot in your mouth it stops you from say the wrong thing..
A LOOP, think why would you need a TAPE LOOP? Adding EQ and tone control is the ONLY reason for a loop.. PERIOD. You monitor from the source and EQ as YOU see fit..
That’s right to monitor and correct (on the fly if need be). There is no other reason to have one.. The actual tape loop was made for one thing RECORDIND.. Everything else was an afterthought.. You can dub from different sources and MIX too. It’s not all digital but it was the way it was done. Nothing to do with a tape loop? You sure about that fuzz? :-)
Look at the face of a C20 Mac and you’ll notice different preset EQ curves set for either Tape or LP.. and RECORDIND from either MIC or another source a Tape, LP or Mic.. A lot of music departments had Mcintosh just for that reason...My HS actually ran Mac..
I know you use a line stage preamp too... Of course you do..
Anyone that doesn’t have EQ or tone control, I’m usually not listening too long to there rigs.. Pretty simple..
It’s not a phono loop or an AUX loop it’s a TAPE LOOP.. the OP is recording.
Yes I use my R2R to record Humming birds talk ALL the time.. Quite a chatty bunch.. I'm a BIG fart recorder too.. left cheek sneak coming up... WOW 105 DB. we have a winner.. :-)
@fuzztone Thanks for clarifying. So basically having inputs/outputs connected to selector switch will lead to feedback (even if inaudible) and if I were to accidentally record with the selector set to R2R output this could cause damage.
I don’t think I will be swapping the integrated, in the short term at least, so I think phono preamp direct to R2R and R2R output to line in on my integrated would be the simplest option. And monitor using the headphone jack on R2R which i would prefer anyways vs having it play out on my speakers (i could even keep my integrated in standby during recording this way). However, that would require me to disconnect phono preamp from R2R and connect directly to my integrated for normal playback of my TT or always play through the R2R and set monitor to ‘Source’.
One thing i hadn’t considered is my phonostage (Hegel V10) has dual outputs in the form of unbalanced RCA and balanced XLR. I reached out to their customer service and they said there is no issue having both connected simultaneously. So I was wondering if I could connect the unbalanced RCA direct to R2R for recording and connected the balanced XLR direct to integrated for normal TT playback. This would remove the need to constantly unplug & move connections. During TT recording I would keep my integrated in standby, the phonostage would feed direct into the R2R and i could monitor from headphones. During TT playback I would leave the R2R turned off and select the XLR input on my integrated. During R2R playback I would select that input on my integrated.
Why tape in 2021? To be honest I have no good reason aside from the sentimental value it holds being my dads old R2R. He was in music production and it was a timely coincidence that he found it in storage as I only put together my hifi system a few months ago. Along with that he pulled out a trunk of 100+ records which i haven’t had a chance to look through yet.
@oldhvymec Thanks for the tip on speakers & vibration during recording. Initially i thought it would be easier to monitor through speakers but due to my lack of tape loop and possible feedback, using headphones connected to R2R seems the best option.
I’ve looked into direct head playback mods but I’m trying to avoid getting sucked in too deep as its a huge time investment and I’m already spending more than expected on this R2R restoration.
@vinylzone Yes you're right, its switches output of the headphone jack and rca outputs on the back. So that would give me the option of monitoring either through speakers or headphones i guess.
A true tape loop unit will have tone control that can be applied to the loop.
A "true" tape loop has nothing to do with EQ. It is only a circuit that adds another layer to the amps outputs avoiding feedback. It’s inputs come from the selector switch. It’s outputs go to the monitor switch. You can put a recorder in there, and/or any processing (EQ, compressor, expander, etc.) that you desire. I use a dBx 400 switchbox that allows 3 recorders and 4 processors pre or post. If the recorder’s outputs go to the selector switch you WILL get bleed through (maybe inaudible) and eventually you WILL punch record with it selected. Maybe later, maybe sooner.
A tape loop is to monitor and correct a recording being MADE. A true tape loop unit will have tone control that can be applied to the loop or be switched out of the loop for play back.
Direct head playback is not on a lot of RtRs,
I have a unit that should be here today the 3rd. Phono/tape direct head playback. Here is the deal, the RtR I use is XLR playback and record TOO. The direct head playback is RCA.
Do you see that a loop is really not needed now?
You fix the volume while recording but correct with a downstream EQ in series.
AND if you need a loop make your own and add the good EQ (tone control for recording correction) BEFORE the recording device and where you can monitor via headphone (at the EQ before and after)
Feedback? As long as the headphones aren't "MICed" and no other way to introduce a feed (speakers on while recording). Where is the feed back coming from? Unwanted noise, speakers need to be off and vibration control ON big time... Heck I remember that from 45 years ago..
Crosstalk wasn't an issue we use TWO MONO preamps... There use to be a reason for that old stuff being that way... TWO mono preamps.. I still have a pair..
I'll be recording soon. I'm going to use a STL tube 15 band EQ, Mac C2500, Decware ZP3 and Otari MX5050 BII2. The 5050 has a preamp bypass I installed, and the direct head playback mod, I've yet to install on this 5050 (I've done 4 others). It's posted on my page.. The schematic for the mod..
You won’t get feedback if you’re careful but sooner or later you’re gonna trip up. Bleed through is likely. Try it, might work good enough for be you. Good luck with a difficult process. Phono stage direct is best if you have a phono pre. Again plug in the deck and then move to the amp. Not for me.
@fuzztone I didn't consider having to disconnect r2r output as well during recording. If the phonostage is connected directly to the r2r and i'm monitoring with headphones while still outputting to my integrated i figured i would hear nothing when the output selector on Teac is set to 'Source' (phonostage) and the off-the-tape output when set to 'Tape'. This scenario would introduce feedback?
Not that it would be useful to hear through speakers since i can only monitor the source through headphones but its an extra set of cables to unplug.
Most likely will use this as a temp setup until i can figure out a replacement for the preamp.
@vinylzone thats what i had considered as an option although it would only allow me to monitor the tape on my speakers since the phonostage is connected direct to r2r. but using the headphone out on r2r would allow me to monitor both source & tape during recording
@russ69 the tape loop also provides an unattenuated line level signal from the preamp to accomplish that. seems the only option with what i have is phonostage direct to R2R and then monitor source/tape from headphones plugged into the R2R.
You'll be in danger of a feedback blowout if you try to monitor without a tape loop. They are few and far between. You have to monitor with headphones in the deck. No recommendations. other than unplug the deck output to record and plug it in for playback. Yeccch. Buy an amp with tape loop.
Phono stage direct to R2R, Tape out to any input. This will allow you to monitor what's coming off the tape while recording. Same with the cd transport.
A tape loop IIRC is so that you can monitor while you record. If you are just playing back I think you can just go into one of the input connectors.
EDIT: I see you want to record. I get confused at this point but the loop is for ease of recording and play back but you can record direct which is not that inconvenient. Maybe someone else with more experience can jump in.
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