I should add, Nelson Pass has been building large Class-A amplifiers for a very long time and I've never heard anyone complain about their reliability. If you feel the need to start poking inside of an amp and making judgements about the parts maybe what you are feeling is a need to build one yourself? Look up FirstWatt kits. |
Maybe this is what you were looking at. Look at all the red and blue wires, and those great big metal plates on the capacitors. All the high currents are handled well by very tidy and short wiring. As others have commented, the ribbon is probably there for power on/power off signals (not current), and perhaps some turn on sequencing. None of it appears to be in the way of the audio signal, though I could be mistaken and even then, if properly selected, would be fine. So for instance, there might be a push button on the front panel, or meters, or even source selectors. All just fine for ribbons that are not carrying significant current or audio signals. A good amplifier circuit is usually supported by some sort of relays to ensure the amplifier has stabilized before the speakers are connected, external turn on/turn off jacks, etc.
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I had an AGI 511 preamp for years. It used a ribbon cable that went from the board to another board of the rca connectors. A popular upgrade for this was to remove the ribbon cable and use good quality shielded cable to each connector. A very large increase in dynamic range and overall better sq. Photos can be seen on line of the internals of this ribbon cable. A poor design when used within the audio signal path, ime. Many other upgrades were available as well, as mine was an all out assault. Thinking about it, I should have kept it, but I was offered a nice amount of $ for it, so it went. |
What if he does?? I mean it seems like you’ve just kind of randomly hit upon some feature of audio construction you were not previously aware of you are now fixated on. It’s a poor way to judge gear. This is why I’m suggesting you build your own instead of arm-chair judging gear based on pictures and conjecture and an unexplained problem with a particular use of connection methods. Listening to the amp is really the only way to judge his results. The proof of the pudding is not in the ingredients but in the eating. And why are you fixated on poor Pass for using ribbon connectors? Have you been looking at other amps too?? Lots of ribbon cables there too. |
oh man…seeing Erik defend Pass I had to pinch myself to make sure I was awake…just kidding… @silverfoxvtx1800 stop trolling. Angela amps looked interesting to you but Pass Labs amps look odd because you saw a ribbon cable? You don’t think it’s odd to see gallons of melted breast implants dumped over the shitty point to point spaghetti that gilbert puts in his amps? Now he’s wearing a skirt and calls himself Angela? Thanks bud, I’ll stick with Pass. |
Those ribbon cables are most likely used for the front panel meter, That meter measures current at the output stage so it appears each wire in the ribbon picks up the voltage from a transistor (probably across the emitter resistor) to do the conversion. Since there are a lot of transistors, it is much neater (and cheaper) to run circuit traces to the transistors and then gather them at a connector for a ribbon cable. Or else there would be a bird's nest of conventional wires if they were soldered point to point.. |
I’ve never had anything negative to say about Nelson Pass, the quality of his equipment construction or his business practices. I appreciate how open Nelson has been about his thoughts in amplifier design, and amplifier / speaker integration via seminars and published writing and his willingness to share with the DIY community via FirstWatt. He makes a number of aesthetic choices when it comes to the sound of his preamp and amps which simultaneously have gotten his gear a large following and which does not work for me. It isn’t tribal. |
Emailed Nelson and we talked about ribbon cabling, very nice of him to get right back to me…all is good..the reason I was concerned is I have a Pass XA-25 coming today and the ribbon cabling jumped out at me when I looked under the hood…My Primaluna amp died and didn’t have a spare amp..didn’t know I was trolling… ‘thanks for the help |
Look at the binding posts on a Pass. That will tell you how they are built. All pass amps are overbuilt. Mine is rated at 25W Class A, and the output transistors are rated for 500 watts(approx). Couple that with heavy construction and heat sinks. Pass is not the only company that does this. I have ribbon speakers and they sound pretty good by the way. |
Nervous Nellie here, lol The Pass XA-25 came today after weather delays from California to Washington State, I am 70 and my goal is to phase out my tube gear so it’s easy for my wife to handle my system when I pass on,she is a young hottie lol., the Pass amp is the first step…plus I have been having major tube amp problems…I think reading what everyone says about this stuff can really mess with your head…good reviews bad reviews…my review while am sitting here listening to all my music with a different amp…everything is way more intense and not in a harsh way but a exciting way…that’s right out of the box today with 4 hours of listening…from what I have read when this thing gets some hours it really shines..I am a happy camper right now..right now the preamp is a Primaluna Dialogue Premium which is going away with the Primaluna amp..was thinking about getting the Pass preamp to make a good marriage….wow this thing rocks…Playing a real intense song with hard bass and it really grabs you in a good way..the song Diamonds by Malaa very intense.. I would welcome preamp recommendations…I was worried this would make my Forte IVs bright, not even close..a nice sweet sound in the mids and treble…not harsh at all, the Fortes have a nice bass but this amp makes it better..no complaints… |
@audphile1 my pass is about 3 yrs old. It was a demo, but brand new condition. I miss Reno Hi Fi. It took about a week to break in and it takes an hour to fully warm up. I think it has a very smooth, accurate, neutral and nice bass. I am set, my last amp. |
Thanks…my wife can’t handle messing with tubes…I can’t go wrong with the Pass Preamps…This Primaluna preamp with all Mullard tubes from the 1960s is sounding good…anyone who likes Primaluna will get some awesome tubes..I have a matched set of 8 EL34 Mullards from the 1960s for the amp that came from Andy at vintage tube service… |
@daledeee1 yup about an hour to come to temperature and start to really sing but even cold my X260.8 monos sound great. |
If you look at the inside of any piece of audiophile electronics it will not have the same kind of expensive wiring most people use for AC cables or speaker cables. Why? Not so with Pass Labs or Audio Research Gear. My Pass Labs X350 Amp that I bought in 2002 was wired internally with Monster Cable. I’m sure their newer amps have equivalent or better. ARC started using Litz wire internally decades ago. I rewired my ARC SP-6b with Litz wire back in the late 1980s along with better caps, resistors and a volume pot comparable to the newer ARC gear at the time. |
@donavabdear not true even my 30 year old krell amp has beryllium copper buss bars for the output stage. |
The fact that high quality manufacturers don’t use "audiophile grade" cabling internally is not a definitive answer. I once got involved in a "speaker geek" conversation with the owner of one of the most successful speaker companies in recent decades. After a nice exchange of thoughts on speaker design he said (referring to cabling, connection methods, etc): "I get all of that. I just don’t want to argue with my engineers over it." There are legit SQ design elements that go into equipment that may align with production efficiencies. Most often, they do not. There are also considerations service. In-field service board swap via detaching ribbon cables beats desoldering or sending a beefy chassis in 2 directions (including the risk of freight damage). As others have stated, ribbon cables are often used for sending data, control, and lighting up the front panel. Sometimes low current power is sent to energize circuit boards. In the case of a streamer we "hacked" a while back, we eliminated the ribbon cable and direct silver soldered good cabling directly to the circuit board. Not an easy task. It got a little crowed in there. The SQ improvement was significant. So, it depends on the use of the ribbon. Power delivery matters. Even if current demands are small. |
@invalid Yes bars for the output stage just like a real power plant. Just before WW2 the big power plant at Hermosa Beach Ca had the main output bars replaced with pure silver bars so if the Japanese did capture California they wouldn't get so much silver, just a note that one of the managers told me while we were filming in the building. I'm talking about the wiring inside your amp or control amp or DAC that has a several thousand dollar cable plugged into it from the power conditioner or the wall, In the metal box the power goes to a fuse and a switch which then probably to a transformer but isn't made with nearly the same cable material or scientific geometry as your power cables. Inside the equipment box is very high current sections very close to very low current sections, DACs have RF hell all over the place thus separate sometimes 4x boxes for the equipment. Why don't eqipement companies use even ¼ as expensive of internal cabling as the normal hi end audiophile people do? |
@donavabdea you have posed this same question on the why cables matter thread and I think in few other places as well. You’re beating a dead horse. The discussion here is ribbon cables. Those are used for non-audio-essential tasks such as control boards and meters. |
@audphile1 This subject has been a problem for me for literally almost 40 years. It is not true that audio doesn’t follow ribbon cables, it is true that power both AC and DC moves through ribbon cables and board tracers. I have been in the situation of having to stop a company spending 2000 dollars a minute to replace equipment while 150 people and actors making millions go back to their trailers until i’m done because of ribbon cables nearly 100% of the time. My notes here and on other threads are to show that when people can’t see the cables they are made cheep even when your equipment is a 200k piece. The problem with ribbon cables is plentiful the biggest problem is the connector it connects two parts of a system together and that is where movement comes from and because the ribbon cable connectors are all very poor that is where problems are. I’m sure there are electronic techs on this forum that will affirm everything I’m saying. Cables inside of audiophile units are good cables but they are not an inch think and shielded with five levels of shrink-wrap and fancy colors. Good connectors make much more of a difference ask any professional sound person, there are some on this forum. |
Also today audio flows through integrated chips with incredibly small parts, plugins run audio through digital hoola hoops everyday all the time on every piece of music recorded with modern equipment. Chips are the best way to handle audio and the most dependable, why because all you have to do is be careful of the quality of the power supply the chips will always act the same. In the future sound systems will come in a chip and the silly discussions abut audio cables will filially stop.
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to the OP a Pass , Belles or Ayre SS preamp would be on my short list IF i was in your anti tube position….. i do get it….hand off an easy to use system to surviving spouse ( my plan is the NAIM Uniti Atom, which she loves )…. You are in very good hands w Nelson…. by the way a multi layer, heavy curved trace board is WAY better than point to point….unless you like…..noise…. |
how will the said chip be powered? Solar? Batteries ? A miniature built in nuclear reactor to eliminate the need for a power cord. Will that chip also reproduce music and will render speakers obsolete, thus also eliminating speaker cables? Just trying to envision such a device…and my imagination is failing me…help me out here… |
i was just talking about replacing ribbon connectors with chips. For your imagination, no separate electronic boxes at all only speakers, yes you will have to plug in your speakers but by then people will realize that AC is changed to DC and that very simple circuit is easy to design and doesn’t take an expensive AC cable. All controls will be on apps and the generic speakers will be controlled by signal and powered chips If you want to get better sound than everyone else you just pay for a more expensive app and better DSP. The future of the audiophile equipment lover is not so exciting. In the pro world already it’s not the hardware you have it’s the plugins. |
I see. Streaming speakers then. Something like the wireless KEF LS50 or LS60. There are still amplifiers inside those speakers and they need to be plugged in, like you said. And that ties you up to the built in amplifier. The power delivered to those speakers still matters though. But what you’re saying is we’ll be able to make an in-app purchase, i.e. Nordost Valhalla 2, and the speakers will sound, when that mode is activated, like they are connected with a full loom of the Valhalla 2 cables, correct? Is my understanding of what you’re envisioning correct? I’m lost though….cause I thought you are of the opinion that the expensive cables are a scam and they’re not needed. But paying for the app, instead of the cables, to replicate what those cables do is OK? That isn’t a scam? I suppose there’s also going to be a “vinyl” mode where the processor will add an occasional pop and tick here and there and alt the frequencies so it resembles listening to a record…oh wait don’t Weiss DACs already have that? |
