Roon/Bluesound Node - adding new DAC (non Roon-Ready)

Just an additional question; the more I try and get my head around Roon, the more confused I'm becoming. 

Where is the actual Digital to Analogue conversion taking place? Is it;

a) at the Roon Core stage on my PC, which is then passed to the Node's analogue output stage or, 

b) via the Node's DAC after passing through Roon's DSP stage?

Thanks very much

Roon core organizes your streaming services and local music files.

Depending on your core computer, it will output digital music over Ethernet, or it may include an onboard DAC and output analogue.

typically roon core resides on a computer or roon nucleus computer, on your network.

your node is both a streamer and a DAC.  It can output usb digital music to another DAC, or it can output analogue.

if the DAC (roon endpoint)  is roon ready or tested, the endpoint will show up on the roon interface and be selectable.

I have never used a non roon ready DAC, but I believe it will work fine from your usb output of your roon ready node streamer.

hope that helps.

 

 

Sorry for the underlines 

If the Node is connected over the network, it seems to me that Roon will see the Node as the endpoint, and it doesn’t matter what is connected to the Node’s digital outputs.

I have an Auralic Aries in my network and Roon recognizes it as Roon Ready, despite the Aries's digital output going to a unit Roon knows nothing about.

Creating a list of Roon tested devices is a 2 edged sword. It is nice to know some devices have been tested but it gives the impression that those on the list won't work. For example, the Schiit Bifrost II isn't on the list yet but I know it works fine. However, if your DAC is so old that is isn't "plug and play", i.e., you have to load drivers on your computer to make it work, then it won't work with Roon. I experienced this with a very old W4S DAC. new W4S dacs work fine with Roon but I don't see any on the Roon tested devices list. So if your DAC is less that 5 years old, and in most cases less than 10 yrs old, it will be recognized by Roon. +

If @painter24 is connecting his new DAC to the Node, and the Node (not the DAC) is connected to the Roon Core by networking, it is irrelevant whether the DAC itself is Roon-Ready. Roon-Ready applies to devices that Roon will control directly. In this case, it's the Node, not the DAC.

The only thing necessary is that the DAC not have any quirks that make it incompatible with the Node. That is unlikely, but one could ask the maker or try it to be sure.

 

@mike_in_nc thanks for this, that makes sense.

I should have mentioned, I'm streaming from Qobuz and Tidal; no stored files at the moment. 

I'm still confused as to which link in the chain is doing what?

Is the DAC in the Node doing the DA conversion, or is my PC/Roon doing the conversion, and the Node acting purely as the analogue out? 

I have a similar set up. My Mac mini is the Roon device and my Bluesound node 2i is the Roon End point. Both need to be on the same internet network. Roon just controls and manages the music on Tidal and Qobuz. In other words I select the music and service via the Roon interface on my Mac mini or IPhone or IPad via the Roon app. Again all devices must be on the same network. Frankly, it is all very confusing at first and not at all intuitive. They need some serious help in that regard. But then again, audiophiles put up with a lot of bad user interfaces. Your other question is straightforward, because Roon has nothing to do with the DAC. If you run a digital interconnect to your DAC from the Node, the DAC is doing the conversion. This is how you need to set it up. Otherwise you are not using the DAC at all. You will get there. In my system, the Bluesound is going into an NAD preamp via digital interconnect. The NAD’s DAC decodes MQA on Tidal. I like MQA but that is a whole other discussion. Enjoy!

@scottscottsdale thanks very much; I think I'm getting there 😁👍

Everything in the chain is on the same wired network, so all good

I don't have my external DAC yet, (waiting for DHL) so still using the Node's internal DAC, but from what you describe, the Node is performing the actual D/A conversion.

I think I'm getting confused by the DSP options within Roon

I agree.  Roon is very very confusing.  To be honest, while it is cool to discover different "versions" of albums or songs, I am not really taken by Roon.  I find the BluOS operating system to be much better.  I tend to just use that most of the time.

 

I suspect you will see a huge difference when your new DAC arrives.  Like a kid at Christmas!

 

Have a wonderful journey!

Painter24 - the following article explains what Roon Certification involves. If you stay with the application you are currently using the processes described in the article will be performed by your Roon Core computer in conjunction with the Node as an endpoint.

https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/roon-ready#Overview

There is a possibility that your DAC will work directly with your computer without the streamer involved at all. You could check with the manufacturer if they have tried it.

 

 

Is the DAC in the Node doing the DA conversion, or is my PC/Roon doing the conversion, and the Node acting purely as the analogue out? 

Your PC/Roon Core does not do DA conversion.  It sends a digital signal out over your home network (which cannot handle analog signals). The Node has its own DAC chip; it can output either digital or analog signals to downstream devices. Presumably, you want your new DAC to do the DA conversion.  So, you want  the Node to feed the DAC with a digital signal via S/PDIF (toslink/optical) or via USB (if your Node is the latest version and your DAC has a USB-B input). Your new DAC converts that digital signal to analog, then passes the output downstream (to your preamp or integrated amp).  You also can connect the Node directly to a preamp or integrated amp (or powered speakers) via an analog RCA cable connection. 

The DSP options within Roon Core have nothing directly to do with D to A conversion.  They perform functions such as upsampling or parametric equalization. The output is still a digital signal (unless the Roon Core happens to be running on some device that has its own DAC and analog output).

I don’t have Roon yet, but I thought Roon endpoint was all you had to worry about. My Hegel H390 should be Roon ready soon and then I’ll be more in the know.

All the best.

JD

If you have the Node why buy Roon? 

If you don't like the Node DAC,  use an external DAC. 

@tk21 thanks for clarifying the conversion aspect; that's exactly what I wanted to know👍😊

@vanson1 i haven't bought it, I'm using the trial to see if it will benefit me in any way. If not, I'll leave it at that.

Regarding a DAC, as per my OP, I'm waiting for it to be shipped. 

Different users will prefer Roon or not. It’s worth a trial IMO. In the trial, try to use it extensively, as there is a learning curve. Roon’s at its best for finding music related to what you already like and for providing tons of metadata for a lot of music (but not all). It’s at its worst for classical music. Since Roon has no conception of what a sonata is, or a string quartet, you might imagine it has trouble finding those things, and you’d be right.

As to connecting the DAC straight to the computer by USB, that’s often possible. However, not if the computer is in the other room, for example. I don’t think it’s a general rule, but I have had better results -- fewer noise problems -- when using a network-attached streamer (such as the Node) and then to a DAC rather than a direct USB connection from computer to DAC.

@mike_in_nc hi Mike, I agree, definitely worth a try. I like what I see so far with regards to bringing Qobuz and Tidal in to one interface, along with suggestions etc, plus easier sorting. The other draws are the DSP elements.

I'm not sold yet, but as you say, I'll use it constantly while the trial lasts. My PC with Roon installed is upstairs in my office; my system is downstairs, but I wired out most of the house in cat6a a few years ago.

I like it so far; what I wasn't expecting was the slight improvement In SQ up sampling to 24/192, music that is 16/44.1 in Qobuz and Tidal. Nice surprise

I have the Audiolab 6000N streamer that has DTS PLAY-FI interface with lots of streaming apps l listen to Qobuz  I like that it can be rack mounted also

I control everything from my smart phone The Audiolab has a pretty good internal DAC but l bypass it as l have the Exogal Comet plus DAC 

Auralic recommends using a wireless connection for streaming in order to cut down on EMI/RFI noise which surprised me. I always thought wired was best, but, like you, I’m learning new tricks which is tough for an old dog. 🙂

@oldrooney I can definitely relate to that; old dog, new tricks 😁

I've read that re; Auralic recommending wifi over wired; I gave a difficult time getting my head around this, as I like the solidity and tangible connection ethernet gives. But again, that's probably my old school mindset 😁

re: wired vs. wireless.

Depends on what problem you're trying to solve. Many home systems use a combination of wired and wireless. 

Lately I typically play music upsampled to DSD 512.  HQ Player performs the upsampling on the same music server that hosts Roon Core (a sonicTransporter i9).  My Network Audio Adaptor (a little ultraRendu box, which sits between the server and my DAC/preamp) requires an ethernet feed (with USB out).  However, I do have a fast wireless backhaul between my Orbi cable modem and the satellite/router attached to the hifi rig, and also use WiFi between my usual Roon controller (a laptop) and the endpoint.

No noise problems (none that I notice anyway). 

FWIW, my Sonore UltraRendu feeds a USB to S/PDIF converter, which feeds, via RCA digital cable, my older DAC, which I am not ready to replace yet.  Interestingly, Roon shows the USB to S/PDIF converter as the source, since it's the last source in the chain using USB, and therefore the last component in the chain with two-way communication.