Speaker Positioning

Hey Larry, Merry Christmas!
Wheres Oldhvymec??  He’d be proud...  I’m up 2 positive remarks today.  I think Im a changed Man 😝

As for speaker placement, I just switched my rig from the short wall to the long wall.  Pulled the speakers a ridiculous distance away from the front wall in order to smooth out the bass as much as possible.  Its a nearfield setup now which allows me to hear more detail.  I still have a great soundstage.  Nice and wide and deep too.  
Speaker placement can have huge effects on a speakers performance and its free so why not try a few different locations for fun!

@audio2design, more critical is ear placement on ones head.  I had mine adjusted to be perfectly equidistant from a center line I had tattooed down the center of my face.

Once I got my ears properly placed, the imaging really snapped into focus.  Highly recommended but as always, ymmv.

Good luck having your head consistently in the same spot, to the mm every time you listen.

Some good advice given by some knowledgeable members. 
Some useless ramblings by a few blokes that love the sound of their own voice.   Sounds like you found the intelligent posts and making headway on your quest.  Congrats and enjoy the journey!

So the new setup is in place, and I decided to add ceramic cable risers for shats and gigs making a direct comparison all but impossible.  That said, preliminary results are promising. Just have to sample a broader spectrum of material. One thing is certain, the source material is further “exposed” as any weaknesses are more profound. Same on the quality side. :)

The people at Soundings in Denver feel strongly about MASTER SETTING speakers.  I went with the triangle method and as soon as I moved my towers forward from the front wall, I notice a lot of improvement.  This group is extremely knowledgeable about this and I found this discussion interesting.  Guess this is what this hobby is all about.  What still amazes me is I have a realtor send me listings of homes on the market every day and I have yet to see a pair of stereo speakers standing in one of their rooms.  They invest in $5,000 entertainment cabinets and listen to their TV speakers.  I have always heard sound when watching movies is about 70% of the experience.  Also, they spend all of this money on a home and don't even listen to music.  We invite our neighbors over and it is enjoyable to sit down over a few glasses of wine and play music.  They just love it.  I think retail stores and dealers need to send out direct mail pieces to a certain demographic and increase their sales.  It is difficult to sell anything without marketing.

My new listening room is 100% symmetrical.  I found a space closer together and further from the rear wall with the help of two friends as the Focuses weigh 185 lbs.  I use Hallographs to fine tune the focus of the speakers (funny, Focuses need to be focused using something else).  My new speakers will weigh 600 lbs. each.  I don't know how the installer is going to move them around so that I can fine tune them.  I intend to place them where the Focuses are.  Maggies are relatively lightweight to move to find their optimal position.  The good thing about the new speakers is that they have multiple adjustments for ambiance and bass (with rear tweeter and sub bass units).   600 lb. Evolution Acoustics MM2s and 3s are similarly adjustable.  I guess they suppose that perfect placement is too difficult to find.

Thanks everyone. Again, a lot of great tips and education. I now understand why the speaker closer to the side wall is louder!  Glad it isn’t the equipment.  
Purchased the Bosch laser . Am just waiting for new speaker stands because tweeter position currently too low. Decent subs (vintage Kinergetics stereo 2-10” sealed boxes per side) make the back wall disappearance not much of an issue as those jawns pulse! Planning to get further away from back wall and relooking at R-L distance. 
Will check back at completion anticipated before the bird lands Thursday. 

Even while acknowledging that most room walls may not be “ perfectly “ even, loudspeaker and its measured room boundaries must be perfectly symmetrical in order to achieve the utmost in stereo image localization- down to the millimeter from back and side wall- as well as toe-in. This is an incontrovertible fact!

Even if we acknowledge the theoretical point that most of the room walls may not be “perfectly” equal, room distances to loudspeakers and symmetry of the speakers in the room down to the millimeter, is an incontrovertible fact in getting the finest stereo image a particular loudspeaker will allow; given their design capabilities. 

Also, I might add, it is crucial to keep track of and document your measurements and changes, so when you do find a set up that seems to work best, you can go back to that exact set up if you do more experimenting and moving things around.
Now that I have an optimal set up, if for any reason I have to move my speakers, I'll put tape on the floor to mark where they are. This at least gets re-setting the speakers very close and easy to tweak back into exact position with a tape or laser measurer, without starting from scratch....Jim

With my Maggie 1.7s, I use a tape measure, measuring from the wall behind to the front baffle on ea. side of the speaker. Each speaker is set at 415/8"  inside edge of front baffle to wall and 421/2" from outside edge of front baffle to wall (making a very slight toe in) with the tweeter ribbons to the outside and 5' (from inside edge to inside edge) apart. Set up like this presents an incredibly large, well placed and detailed stage, with the vocals and instruments staying where they belong, regardless of where you sit or stand - no head in a vice sweet spot. If I move or shift either of the speakers, even 1/4", some of the magic disappears. For me a tape measure works fine and since the seating position is not critical, no need for a laser measurer to determine the best spot for that.

With Maggies, as with many other speakers, set up is critical; what is the best depends on what you're measuring and from where, but usually the combination of a tape and laser measurer works great....Jim

Another endorsement for Jim Smith's Get Better Sound. I've heard Jim's work both at his home studio and at shows. About the best sound I've heard in each case, regardless of the components used. I may be wrong, but I recall Jim saying that the Wilson system is flawed.

http://www.getbettersound.com/

Start with laser distance measuring device and you can tweak it from there.

Get a book like Jim Smith "Get Better Sound". Read it and start there. There's no experience like your own experience.

There is no perfect way. Put in a position where they sing to you. At that point you can add room treatments. If you feel you need a lot of room treatment you might have the wrong speakers or preamp or Amp. 

...I’m with Millercarbon all the way. Just sayin’

Is speaker placement not also dependent on the type of speaker? I've had dynamic, electrostats, and currently horns and each required significantly different positions and room treatments to get the "best" sound. 

A tip if you have a symmetric room and are trying to get the speakers in the same spot with same toe-in.  Cut 3 boards or dowels.  On that is the distance from the front wall to the rear corner of the speaker.  One that is the distance from the side wall to the rear spike and one that is the distance from the side wall to the front spike.  You can then use these three to set the other speaker in the exact position relative to the front and side wall and the toe-in will be the exact same.  Again, this is only relevant if you have a symmetric room.

I agree with the statement above. You used your ears to select the type of speakers you purchased, why stop there. Just take your time positioning your speakers for the best possible sound, patience will have its rewards.

RE: Speaker Positioning:

Hi - Speaker positioning is critical to achieving the best sound possible. Actually, there is such an instrument that can tell you if your speakers are placed correctly and/or in the best space possible. It's called your ears. And if you cannot tell the difference, have an audiophile buddy come over to give you a hand (and an ear!).  

The Wilson set up method (referred to in a previous response) is very good - we did mine using a laser range finder to arrange equal angles to each speaker and then calibrate the cant angle of the upper module (mid/highs) which is finely adjustable with my Wilsons. After all that I intentionally moved my listening chair around (after marking the original position) and wa interested to find that yes, as little as 6" shift was easily detectable by ear.

The Wilson method presupposes that having the speakers angled so as to point right at you is the way to go (I have no doubt that it is, for the Wilsons) but some speakers I have owned worked best pointing along the long room axis rather than at the listener, so preliminary experimentation by ear is called for if your speaker manufacturer gives you no guidelines.

millercarbon is right, but for kicks and giggles. I want to add:  Not all rooms are symmetric in design or furnishings.  A little compensation can be added, for example, for a big Sofa on one side of the room, a large mirror or door, etc.  Listen!

When you go to a musical event, you may sit toward the front, back, sides......people may be shuffeling programs, coughing, moving about. I use the classic T , a Bosch laser, and a/v receiver room correction followed by some manual alteration. My ral thought though is dont obsess too much and enjoy the music.

Read jim smith’s book on getting better sound. He describes when it’s appropriate to use certain setups even when setting up diagonally in a corner. Most formulas only involve where to place the speakers whereas jim has a formula for the listening chair(s) which is just as important as positioning the speakers. Your better speakers also have time alignment formulas.

I've always found the Odd Dimensions Placement, advocated by Richard Vandersteen, to work well in every application. In my current listening space, the speakers are located 1/3 of the room width from the side walls and 1/5 of the room length from the front of the speakers to the front wall. Toe-in axes intersect approximately 4-5 feet behind listening position. Acoustical panels on wall behind listening position was money well spent.

https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/Manuals/2ce_signature_ii_manual.pdf

...then there’s the room.

Speaker position without understanding the qualities of the room or even the equipment rack position is like dealing with 1/3 the problem.

I have moved across the country many times for work...rooms have their own power. Acoustic ceilings can be amazing. Such a
shame they when out of style.

Hi try this!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploa...

I would place a definite marker or marker to initialise  the base of of your speakers.
them move them incrementally to a preferred toe in (a narrower soundstage) or toe our out for a wider but weaker soundstage. (Depending on your productive system .
Your room is something you will need to sort out
However let’s not get lost

Depending on your “seat”, or at the various hearts or “stages you’ll are going with the living room and other most important rooms.

what I am trying to say, move
your speakers until they are right for you.

All the very best
Adrian 🇦🇺

The sweet spot/toe in variable seems to lend itself to almost as much debate; do you adjust sweetness to a single location, or do you compromise to expand the geography? Another personal preference no doubt.

Right. Most speakers will image best pointed almost straight at you. But imaging isn't everything, there's balance and space and width, and no right answers only your personal preference. 

My personal preference is of course amazingly fantastic, but even I cannot tell you how to achieve it via remote control. However wonderfully worded the advice may be it all comes down to you.

FWIW.

My experience is that no room is symmetrical; the room is challenged such that one speaker has to be closer to its side wall than the other speaker is to the other sidewall.

I used to fight with trying to get the bass to sound" right" versus one speaker sounding louder than the other speaker AND the central image not being where it was supposed to be.

For me, the solution is to get the bass right, and, then, use the measuring tape to ensure the tweeters are equal distance from my ears at the seating position. 

Center image becomes focused.

The problem, then, becomes adjusting the speaker position from the front wall to improve the soundstage without losing bass. It's a trade off.

If the speaker is not too large for the room, you should achieve some amount of the desired disappearing act. 

Again, my experience, FWIW.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

I tried the Cardas formula and it seemed to work fine. I’m always trying any formula I can. The one that worked the best for me, ironically, was a formula on YouTube (can’t remember the source) for quick decent sound for most rectangular rooms with speakers against the short walls. I thought...what the heck and it yielded a better result. It was suggested that it’s only a starting point and to tweak from there.

It’s 1/5 width of room to the tweeter from the side walls.

And 1/5 depth of room to the tweeter from the backwall.

Next, experiment with seated position and speaker toe-in.

Best result I’ve had is nothing between the speakers. I moved my rack to the side wall.
This helped imaging immensely. It is said that a lot of the imaging/soundstage is killed by stuff between the speakers.

It sounded much better than the sound room at Upscale Audio. This room (no longer in that house) crushed most tailored sound rooms I’ve experienced. It also had an acoustic ceiling made from concrete (no asbestos) and wood floors. One wall was heavy stone so I attached high relief wood carvings (and cuckoo clock) all along the opposite wall to mirror the stone wall as much as possible.

I miss that room.

^^^What tablejockey said!

I use a variation of the Vandersteen method and Cardas.  Then adjust according to your tastes/preference.

LOL T-Jockey! That is exactly what I am doing, somewhere between 1/8-1/5, tweeter height, etc. etc. etc.  all great free things to try!

I did purchase the cheap Bosch laser rangefinder.  If only I could find a good used mass spectrometer. 8)

Other than following advice on how not to blow something up or catch fire, I take everything put it in a jar and shake well. Dump the mess on the floor and take a little from here, a pinch there, then let your ears decide.

So lots of potential solutions and even more information to fiddle with.   Anticipate a relo further form the back wall, may not be able to accommodate side wall optimization but it seems like always from walls is a constant.  
The sweet spot/toe in variable seems to lend itself to almost as much debate; do you adjust sweetness to a single location, or do you compromise to expand the geography? Another personal preference no doubt.

thanks again to everyone who took the time.

Here is the Cardas calculator that’s mentioned.
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php

Not ideal for a living space since you will be placing speakers out in the room. Naturally, your ears will tell you what sounds best, but it does give you a good starting point. Getting speakers 4-6’ out allows your speaker to sound its best.

The laser exact measurement doesn't mean anything for some industry vets who go by ear, and will have speakers positioned uneven due to gear channel imbalance. Setting them up like focusing  binoculars to "lock" a balanced sound can leave one speaker pushed forward of the other. Looks odd, but if you're going for sound, that's what it takes. I've participated in moving speakers/subs and heard the results.

My personal system/ears follow the Cardas guide.

Most of these 1/3 rules, 1/5 rules, etc. are nothing more than avoidance of room nodes.  It's 2020, we don't have to use simple rules any more.  They don't account well for room size, aesthetics, etc.   When you have simple online tools like amroc, it does not make sense to use "rules" or rudimentary calculators.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

I would suggest taking into account the frequency response of your mains and where they are placed.


@sj00884, what you are asking is possible, you can get that from impulse responses with reflections.

millercarbon6,538 posts11-15-2020 3:30am

Exact measurements become irrelevant when you don't have a bilaterally symetrical room.

 
What? Since when? Exact measurements become irrelevant when you are deaf in one ear. As long as you have two working ears its the distance between them and the speakers that determines imaging. That's why we have two ears. Two eyes, depth perception. Two ears, localization. If you can't localize the predator then guess what? Hey, you! Out of the gene pool!

Localization occurs both from timing, relative volume, and spectral content which is related to timing and volume.  In the present embodiment of stereo with loudspeakers, timing information is often not well communicated due to lack of shading of the ear from the opposite speaker.

Then we get into the recording, which assuming a stereo recording, may contain only level differences, or level and timing differences depending on the microphone arrangement.  Of course, often what we are listening to was recorded monaural and then placed stereo during processing.

So yes, that poster was mostly right in saying that exact measurement becomes irrelevant when you don't have a symmetrical room. You can't address timing and ignore volume or vice versa.

Ask your wife.

Well, yes and no.  Some here say it is not possible, but set up 50+ pair of Magneplaners in every possible customer room you can think of and you learn a few things.

With Maggies, placement is EVERYTHING!  So, you learn by trial and error and experience where they need to be and even, in some rooms, how there is no place where they will be at their optimal placement.

Keep trying until you get the sound as close to what you heard at the concert hall in your room. For Maggies, this typically involves making some changes to the surfaces in the room--adding traps, changing curtains, etc.  Depends upon what you will "settle" for, I guess.  

I have been lucky enough to have had customers with excellent rooms who purchased the right hardware to bring Maggies to their finest possible sound, which, if you ever have a chance to hear, is so awesome you will swear off box speakers forever.  It ain't cheap, and it ain't especially easy however!

With boxes, just keep moving them around.  Do you have the newer "tall" boxes? (Gee, wonder where they got THAT idea??)  If so, you have a shot at getting it right as far as they go, anyway.

Best of luck, and Cheers!

Richard

Dynaudio's website has some information on speaker setup. It involves the 1/5 concept. The center axis of the front plane of the speaker should be 1/5 the distance off the back wall of the depth of the room and 1/5 the distance off the side walls of the width of the room. If there is a wall behind your listening position, then that position should also be 1/5 the distance off the wall for the depth of the room. This concept should get you out of any standing waves and put you in the ball park of the sweet spot. Of course you still have to listen and adjust to make it sound best for YOU.

Happy Listening

If you follow the Cardas formula, you may wind up with speakers way out near the middle of the room. Maybe not too practical if it isn't a dedicated listening room.

Another method seems to work well for me.  I've seen it called the "Allison Rule":
"The Allison rule basically states that the distances from the woofer to the floor, woofer to the side wall, and woofer to the back wall should be as different as possible. To accomplish this, one would apply the following equation: Middle distance squared = shortest distance multiplied by longest distance."
(Don't know where I found this, maybe in an Audiogon discussion)

Once the speaker positioning is done, place the listening chair to form an equilateral triangle. Tweak to taste.

This method is flexible because it allows you to swap which ones are the short and the long distances.  For the woofer to side wall measurement, you might try starting with the Rule of Thirds. But even if you move the speakers farther apart than the RoT dictates, you still can apply the Allison Rule.

Yuk-O Gene pool! No swimming for me... :-)

BUT

Only one mouth... Yet what gets used the most?

Don’t seem proportionate. Does it?

Rooms suck!!! Plane and simple.

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upnorthsound2 posts11-14-2020 7:38pmExact measurements become irrelevant when you don't have a bilaterally symetrical room. My system is in a 'sunken' living room.

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Well there you have it.. you ever wonder why a prairie dog has a "mound", and conductor is in a "Pit"?

One wants to see and not be heard, the other wants to hear but not be seen. A simple turn of the head, in either case, gives the results they want...Are you in a PIT, or on a MOUND? Do you want to see or hear?

Just a question? Yea placement is everything... Not an average, as you infer...

Think on that one for a while... good, Better. BEST... ay..


Regards...

Exact measurements become irrelevant when you don't have a bilaterally symetrical room.

 
What? Since when? Exact measurements become irrelevant when you are deaf in one ear. As long as you have two working ears its the distance between them and the speakers that determines imaging. That's why we have two ears. Two eyes, depth perception. Two ears, localization. If you can't localize the predator then guess what? Hey, you! Out of the gene pool!

It's easiest with Klipschorns.

Exact measurements become irrelevant when you don't have a bilaterally symetrical room. My system is in a 'sunken' living room. Right side has a large window behind the speaker, and a very large picture window to the right along the wall. Left speaker has an opening, some day a window, otherwise a long drywall surface. So not equivalent. The room opens to a dining room, staircase, etc., so no reflections to deal with. But speaker placement has to be done using the ears, not a tape measure, at least in this case. 
I found much better sound as I inched both speakers away from both the back wall and the sides... Just trust your ears!

Over the years I have found 1/8  is almost always best.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/optimizing-the-soundstage-with-speaker-placement/
Best placement info I have ever read.  Please read
Willy-T

If you go to the Cardas site it will show you the Golden rule how to set up speakers that will work in any room. If you use the formula it will give you the exact spot from the back wall and the side walls where to put the speaker and I've used it and boy to my speaker sound great now.