Just to revisit a little:
I’ve used Naim NBLs for several years now. Their sound optimised in my last room with the backs of the speakers 5.5cm from the (solid) wall behind them, not counting the external crossover. I could hear the difference in the level of emotion conveyed in the recording I was playing as I moved them 5mm either way of that. I this position they out imaged the pair of Thiel CS1.6s that preceded them and took up less of the room despite their considerably larger size. You won’t find a pair at all easily (230 odd were made) and they’re all getting a bit old on any case. I’ve recently moved and lost a tweeter in the process so haven’t set them up in their new room yet (I kept the Theils just in case) and am in the process of obtaining replacement tweeters. I haven’t dared look at the state of the internal foam but the driver surrounds don’t seem to perish.
Of the other boundary speakers I’ve heard the Audionote Es have impressed with their scale and general all round musicality but I’ve only heard them with Audionote UK amps except for once with a Tom Evans Linear A with the recent adjustable feedback upgrade, the combination was rather good.
Naim DBLs do scale and emotion but the pair I heard had slightly weird imaging, despite this they were very engaging. The bass driver surrounds will be breaking up by now but ACT will repair them. The internal foam is also getting brittle but is replaceable.
One that hasn’t been mentioned yet and I’ve not heard is the xulyde md1 (there’s a larger md3 as well) these appear to be made on the French/German border and look like they’re inspired by the Naim allaes,
I’d love to hear a pair of Larsen 9s some time.
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Another huge thanks to everyone and their suggestions. You all have really opened up my mind to new possibilities. I must have been living under a rock the last few years. |
Willgolf3030. I have looked at Raven and their equipment looks really good. Another toy catching my eye is a pair of monoblocks from Amps and Sound - haven’t heard them, but they are beautiful. For speakers, I am currently interested in some from Volti Audio. Super efficient. I still have time, so I’ll probably change my mind ten times by August. |
Second to say Wilson Audio Duette 2's work great against a wall and that is what they were designed for. I drove them with Raven Audio Reflection MK2 tube amp in a very large room and the sound was incredible.
If you are looking at Klipsch, then you should also consider Viking Acoustic. They have speakers for any budget. I have on order the Grande Voix.
If you want more information on Raven let me know. Super amps, phenomenal customer service and an endless supply of vintage tubes. |
For the sake of information, here's another near-wall speaker design by Troels Gravesen: 8008-CORNER
System sensitivity: 92 dB/2.8V, 1 meter
Troels used an 8 watt Joplin 2A3 amp with these speakers which he preferred over a First Watt J2 amp. |
KEF R series. Use the port plugs for positioning close to the wall. |
I made a post on this thread about using Digital Room Correction (DRC) and putting the speakers close to the wall. The @millercarbon was sighing and in tears when I posted that saying that is a bad idea. Well this past Friday, I finally got to hear my room optimized by DRC. I got my DRC done by AcousticSound.ca. That is for my digital only playback via ROON. My analog sources are not part of my DRC solution since I am doing this via the way more powerful computer software and not weak hardware like many here have done. Doing this via software (Audiolense or Accurate) is complicated and that is why I outsourced this work. My analog sources are used mainly with my headphone so no DRC needed. So far, I have received 1 of 6 Convolution filters (I paid for) to plug into ROON (can also use JRiver). Well, my mind is blown with the first attempt. Incredible improvement over the sound without DRC. My room is acoustically treated and sounds great with a KEF LS50, which is an appropriate speaker from my crappy office. Without the treatments even my LS50’s sounded awful. Well I wanted floor stander in the office because I like them so much better. This is where the DRC had to come into the picture to make the speaker work (Thiel CS3.7). The way my solution works is that ROON functions as a software audio equalizer on my digital file or stream BEFORE the bits are sent to my DAC. It alters the frequency curve that will be reproduced by my speakers to be optimized for my room. This post I link below is where I gush over how a "big speaker fits into a small room". I have photos of my room and links to technical references which include another persons play-by-play example of exactly what I did using Tekton speakers. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/room-correction-roon-rew-room-eq-wizard/post?postid=2064340#2...BTW - the guy doing my system is a bit of a rock star in this DSP field. At least that is my perspective after reading his book and reading his incredible articles and posts on computeraudiophile.com A teaser quote from the author of the article.
Yes, we can using specialized loudspeaker and room correction DSP software designed to solve these problems. I have written numerous articles about it, including a book, but in this article, we are only interested in “what” it can do and not “how” it does it. The latter is for another article as this type of highly specialized DSP is mostly misunderstood. Further, very few DSP products provide the needed time domain correction capability. Finally, the “effectiveness” of so-called Digital Room Correction (DRC) products vary wildly. The top two or three DSP software products in this category far outpace other products by a wide margin based on my experience evaluating just about all of them over a ten year period. So let’s jump right to the results of applying SOTA DSP loudspeaker and room correction to John’s already excellent loudspeakers. Remember what the DSP is accomplishing is restoring the ideal loudspeaker response arriving at our ears with no frequency or timing distortion.
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Since all rooms are different makes them a moving target, with peaks that vary from plus 12 DB on one channel and normal or minus 4 DB on the other if your serious about performance then DSP wont do. For many years we have been successfully installing dozens of Vandersteen phase and time correct speakers tune able in your home with superb results.Yes even 3 inches from wall and in corners!!Their adjustments are easily done in the analog domain taking music, performance and confidence in your system to another level. Best, JohnnyR
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+1 on the Vandersteen Quatro Woods. Mine are 8" (back) and 10" (side) and sound great |
The Scansonic MB1 B, MB2.5 B and MB3.5 Bs are all designed for near wall placement.
When Michael Borrensen left Scansonic/Raidho the Scansonic line was completely redesigned so that the break-in time was radically reduced and the three models were explicitly designed to work within 1’ of a wall.
Not theory. In practice, this happens. I have a customer who put MB3.5 Bs in his living room. Has them like 9” from the back wall and they are wonderful. I helped him set them up.
He uses a PrimaLuna integrated in triode to drive them which is like 35w.
These check all your boxes and deliver a huge, immersive soundstage. |
Depending on your space, an Ohm Walsh prefers to be at least a few feet away from a wall/walls... Some have a small 'footprint', so that may not be an issue.
They can be a bit fussy, being at heart an omni.
If you absolutely have to be on the wall, walk on by.... ;)
Happy hunting, J |
Plus 1 or 2 for Audio Note. I have the E’s in the corner with low watt tubes and sound amazing IMO. Depending on your budget Audio Note Amps are wonderful as well or for less expensive, Quicksilver are fantastic. |
I’ve used Vandersteen Treo CT’s within 12”of the wall and they sound great, probably because the port is on the bottom of the speakers. The point about using absorption or diffusion behind the speakers is a good one. |
I will echo the recommendation to seriously consider the Larsen loudspeakers. They are the only loudspeaker I've ever heard that are engineered to be put up, flat against a wall. Doing so makes them much more furniture and decoration friendly, if that's an issue for you. If it is a serious requirement, then the Larsen really is a great choice. I’ve heard them and agree that they image well, though to me, they sounded rather 2 dimensional than 3 dimensional. The Larsen 8 is about $7000 and you’re not likely to find them on the used market. You don’t say what amplification you’re planning on using, but that will probably add another $2000 or more to your system cost.
You mention using an integrated amp, which suggests that space is a problem for you. Otherwise separate preamp and power amp gives you many more choices.
***IF*** you can work with a loudspeaker than can sit about 6 to 12 inches from the back wall, then the recommendation for the Dutch & Dutch 8c is one you would do well to take seriously seeing as how you’re looking to purchase both your loudspeakers and your amplification. The D&D 8c retails at $12k, but can be found on the used market at about $9k, which puts it even with the Larsen and whatever integrated amp you might choose.
I’ve also heard the Dutch & Dutch 8c and they are nothing short of astonishing. One of the very, VERY best loudspeakers you’ll ever hear. Absolutely extraordinary. They are a fully engineered system with built-in amplification, DSP and controlled directivity. You don’t run them butt up against the wall, but typically about a 6 to 12 inches away. Once you get them in place, you tweak the DSP to account for the wall spacing and it works with the wall, not in spite of it. Exceptional deep end. And the imaging!!!! O-M-G!!! I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a loudspeaker even come close to what the D&D 8c can do. Truly incredible.
You don’t say what you’re planning to use for a source. If you’re one of the people who mostly listens to streaming sources like Tidal, or even just plays digital material from a music server or computer, then all you have to do is run a network cable to the D&D 8c and you’re done. No preamp. No intergrated amp. Just your laptop and a network cable. Talk about a minimalist setup!
If you can find your way to auditioning the D&D 8c, you’ll be truly amazed. |
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The whole speakers close to the wall issue is GREATLY misunderstood and fraught with a ton of misinformation.
You need to consider what is going on to understand the situation as a whole.
1) When you place a speaker close to any room boundary you reinforce bass response AND excite room nodes. This is a major reason why people like small speakers in tight spaces close to walls. This is easily fixed with bass traps but many will never spend the money and never get true full potential from their setup.
2) Walls create reflections and even the back of a speaker cabinet radiates sound, sound that is not necessarily pleasing. Don't believe me, get behind a speaker box and put your ear near the cabinet. It's not pretty and early reflections of this sort are not pretty. Solution is to put absorbers directly behind speakers or better yet a QRD diffusor.
The speaker and room should be considered as a unit and integration is paramount. I have 3 VERY large speaker systems that traditional misinformation says they only sound good several feet away from the walls however I can place the fronts 3 feet from the rear wall with no issues being that I have my rear wall done in Skyline QRD's and proper bass traps tuned for a low RT60.
The popularity of small speakers with tiny woofers is undoubtedly due to the reluctance to properly treat a room's nodes for full range capable speakers and smaller speakers have less surface to radiate objectionable rear waves.
The only speakers that really need to be spaced a but from rear walls are electrostats which have membrane issues when too close to a boundary wall.
I remember being shocked by the Snell speakers that were designed to go flat against a rear wall and taking the rear early reflection completely out of the equation however the spaced approach with a diffusor gives a soundstage of epic scale and more enjoyable experience.
So treat you room first and then worry less about speaker selection. |
This reminds me of something. Among my nearly half century of owning B&W's, I had tall electrostatic panels speakers for 25 years. Instead of placing them near a wall, I removed a section of the wall and used the speakers in two different rooms. The sound was certainly clean and crisp from the upper bass to the mid-range, where 'stats really shine. I had originally done this for the early, wood framed Magnepans, but those speakers were not really good at anything, except for sounding like Bose 901's with an even worse head cold than they had.
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I've had a number of speakers in our large living/kitchen area over four decades. My wife doesn't want speakers too far out in the room. I've finally found the perfect speaker for that room and those restrictions, the Larsen 8.2. No need for subs either. The low bass on these relatively small speakers is amazing. I tried several amps, both solid state and tube. So far I'm getting the best synergy with Manley Snapper monos. |
Among current makers, look at Larsen (all models) and Klipsch (certain models). Vintage speakers that were designed to go against the wall include Sonab-Carlsson, Allison, and certain models by Snell, and Linn (the Kan, I believe). I have not heard the new Volti.
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Anyone remember the NHT 3.3's? They were so deep that you could jam the back of them right up against the wall and yet the drivers would still be a good distance out from the wall. |
Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. Looks like I have a lot more options than I originally thought. I was surprised that no one mentioned Volti Audio. They were high on my list to consider, especially the new Raaz model. Very efficient and a good match for tubes. Any thoughts on these? |
Aerial 5T was designed specifically to be placed between 2 inches and 2 feet of a wall. Well reviewed bookshelf. |
iirc the well regarded audio physic speakers (virgo etc) were meant to be placed back against front wall, yes?
am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong
they were long speakers that would still extend a good bit into the room though |
Troels Gravesen designed a speaker for near-wall placement called the Bookshelf-3WC. Its sensitivity is rated at
90 dB/2.8V/1 meter. Check it out. |
If you are looking at LTA check out Daedalus Muse highly efficient and front port works well with close to wall placement. I purchased this summer. Lou is very helpful during the process and they are gorgeous speakers.
Muse Speaker | Mus Speaker Daedalus Audio
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Anything without a rear port really... $ for $ I haven't heard anything better than Sonus Faber Sonetto's yet - I have the VIIIs - the port is on the bottom of the tower. |
Klipschorns...they HAVE to go on the wall. |
// Full Disclosure - I work for manufacturer // The Ostinato Monitor has essentially two full sets of cross-overs allowing for both near to wall and far from wall placements. Provides some future-proofing if/when you have need to place somewhere else. https://ostinatospeakers.com/monitor/Cheers |
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MartinLogan Masterpiece speakers sound best about three feet from the wall.
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The only speaker truly designed to go against the wall is the Larsen Speaker |
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In Europe we generally have smaller rooms than in the US so many of our European speakers are designed for close-to-wall placement. One of the best higher end for being up against the wall are the B&W 804D floorstanders. They are medium sensitivity at 89dB. |
Wow, thanks everyone! Lots of new avenues to explore here and exposure to a couple of brands I have never heard of. I’m really leaning toward Raven or Linear Tube for my amp, so efficiency will be a prime consideration. |
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Larsen! They are made for placement against a wall. They are quite amazing, |
An example of a speaker that does well close to a rear wall would be wharfedale 225's 11.2's, the newer evo 4.2's...etc...all share one thing in common...a down firing bass port. The speaker cabinet rests on a plinth supported by rubber feet. The ported bass is allowed to escape in all directions. I've used and still have the above 225's and they were 1 foot away from rear wall and sounded awesome. Albeit, these are all considered mid-fi or budget speakers, but they all work well near the wall. |
Surprised that nobody has mentioned Dutch & Dutch 8C. Stereophile Class A rated, designed to be close to the back wall, and eliminate the need for an amplifier.
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+1 for Audionote. I have AN J-spe against the wall in a small room paired with Audionote Meishu Silver Line (8 watts) and sound incredible... |
I in my experience speakers with a really solid cabinet can placed almost anywhere. (not all) I have Ryan R-610s on stands slammed to the wall and they sound great. |
Patrickdowns I will echo your thoughts on Larson speakers I checked out an audio store in Waikiki last winter and he had a trial pair of Larsons They look cheaply made in some respects He was most impressed as I was with the sound They are fantastic sounding great detail I like the fact that they can stay against the wall What was most impressive is he was using wall wire for speaker cables and average power cables and connects His amp was an inexpensive german tube amp and a inexpensive chinese dac Maybe $7k combined With better gear and cables Who knows how good Larsons would sound However as is it sounded great no need to improve anything else |
Amphion Loudspeakers especially the Argon series on up and time aligned to blend in to ever modt problem rooms and from the
Argon 3S on up use a true equally pressured rear Bass passive radiator which gives excellent tuneful bass and the waveguide for the tweeter is = size to the mid-Bass driver which uses a simple Xover ,and speaker can be very close to the front wall.
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Audio Note speakers are designed for tubes and designed to be placed in room corners or walls. And they sound fantastic.
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I have read that Audiovector QR series do well, but I had bought Martin Logans before I found out about this so no first hand knowledge. I've had no issues with my ML Motion 35 XTI speakers on a desk fairly close to a back wall. |
THE LARSEN (6 or 8) gets excellent reviews, and while I haven’t auditioned them I will. The mid and tweeter fire towards each other, and negate much of the first sidewall reflection problems. The woofer fires down (iirc) and makes placement near or against the wall ideal. I’ve spoken to people who have them and love them. The soundstaging they make is more a "wall of sound" with good specificity of location of the musicians, but not as specific and focused as typical front-firing speakers. The upside is that the sweet spot is very broad, and the reproduction is said to be much more like live music. Reviews: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue69/larsen8.htmhttps://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/larsen-model-8-loudspeaker/
"Not to maintain artificial suspense, the Larsen 8s are, like their ancestors, speakers that produce an unusually natural sound, a sound that bears a surprising resemblance to concert music. But, again like their ancestors, they are quite different from ordinary speakers—by intention. So to appreciate them, one needs to think for a moment about certain fundamental matters of speakers in rooms. What Gives With Speakers
It is, of course, familiar stuff in audio that speakers can have various basic radiation patterns: omni, dipoles, or that intrinsically strange if most common hybrid, the “forward-radiating” box speaker designed to be out in the room, which is typically omni in the bass, shifts to radiating primarily forward (half-space radiation) somewhere around 300 to 700Hz, depending on the width of the front baffle, and then narrows its pattern yet more in the high frequencies. On the face of it, this most common kind of speaker seems, like the chimera, to be led from ill-matching parts, as far as radiation pattern goes. Designers have, of course, become adept at making these transitions of pattern occur smoothly, and thus sound less troublesome to the ear. But the forward-radiating box out in the room remains an odd creature on the face of it. Larsen Model 8 And then there is the question of “free space mounting,” the “out in the room” part. Since bass works better if the speaker is up against a room boundary (or two or three), how did it get to be a habit to put the speaker out in the room—and to have its woofer off the floor, usually? The answer is historically complex. But roughly speaking, you can blame it on the British. Free space mounting makes it easiest to avoid boundary-induced coloration of the midrange, and the midrange was most of what the British audio establishment of the 1960s and 1970s was interested in. Midrange and precision stereo imaging is also easiest with free space mounting, which delays reflections for a long time." ...
"So the natural thing to do was to eliminate the back-wall reflection by placing the speaker against the wall so that the sound off the wall formed in effect a unit with the forward sound. Room sound then arrives a long time after, especially if one puts the speakers on the long wall so that they are far from the sidewalls..." ,,
"If one forgets about audio categories, turns one’s mind away from a
checklist of what speakers are supposed to do, and turns one’s mind away
from what most speakers do do, and thinks instead of what music sounds
like in reality, these speakers are hugely intriguing. Once one gets
used to the fact that they are different from free-space floorstanders;
indeed, one can become positively addicted to their sound. In a certain
sense, the Model 8s are something of a road not taken in audio. But one
cannot help wondering if this is not perhaps because audio took a wrong
turn somewhere to some extent if the goal is to sound like real music,
especially in terms of reproducing the lower midrange on down. Large-scaled
music, where the match between room sound and direct sound is a vital
matter, especially illustrates the virtues of the Model 8s. Orchestras
sound surprisingly like orchestras, with a transparency that goes not
just down into the midrange but all the way down. If you wanted to write
down the bass and cello parts of a symphonic composition from
listening, these speakers would make it easy. At the same time,
the human voice is also very convincing. A good recording of a person
speaking sounds startlingly like a real person, something that often
escapes speakers that change directivity in the midrange on account of
the baffle step. And instruments with serious lower-midrange content
sound unusually convincing, as noted. The Larsen Model 8 is to my
mind a speaker that everyone seriously interested in audio ought to
listen to and at as much length as possible, since one needs to adjust
to its quite different approach to reproducing sound in rooms. There are
things it does, and important things at that, that to my mind lie at
the heart of actually sounding like live music. The approach is entirely
different from the near-field, directional speakers that can also claim
a really accurate reproduction of what is on the recordings, albeit in a
different way. But the approach of the Larsen Model 8s has validity of
its own. How speakers should work in rooms is not a very standardized
matter. But the way of the Larsens is one of the ways that works. The
Larsens, most impressively, really sound the way music actually does
sound. The Model 8s are not just another try at making a speaker like
all the rest except better, as so many high-end speakers are. Rather,
the Larsen Model 8s are something special in their own right." ###
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any of the Vandersteen from Quatro on up can be tuned to be close to the wall my Quatros are 8 inches off the wall
Enjoy the Music
Tom |
