Stay the course....8^0 This thread is about Stylus Drag. I said earlier based on my personal experiences, Stylus drag effect is based on the type 1) type of turntable, 2) the type of tonearm used, and 3) the type of cartridge/stylus. The turntable rabbit hole has been explored....... So..... Has anyone done a drag measurement for different stylus types. Should be easy if you own a belt drive. Count the revolutions for a set period of time without the stylus engaged. Then try the different stylus types, and repeat. https://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/stylustypes.jpgConical, one would assume? - should have the least drag in the groove - least surface contact ? Curious to findings |
Boy, that CS Port LFT-1 is one handsome turntable. I seriously doubt stylus drag is going to be a problem for it. The platter is massive, driven by a Kevlar string! Granite base. Wonder what it goes for. Any guesses? |
CS Port LFT1 is not distributed in the Western Hemisphere as of right now.
in the UK it’s 47k Pounds Sterling....including the linear tracking arm. i think that includes the VAT. then the granite base is a few thousand more.
so equivalent to around $55k to $60k USD if offered here.....maybe into the mid 60k USD range. distributors tend to set their own prices. |
mijostyn
The platter is massive, driven by a Kevlar string! mijostyn Kevlar would not be my choice of material to use on a string drive designed turntable. "been there done that" https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CeXnpSNXhk3fKKv6Kevlar has strength, but is far, IMO from the best sounding. The best designed String Drive tables (again IMO) are very delicate ? (for lack of a better word) with the STRING - allowing the audiophile owner to use the most DELICATE of strings/threads. Very audible differences. Now you want to talk about an Audiophile Rabbit Hole. Opportunities await the Audiophile at Fabric land for the String Design. |
feedback from CS Port LFT1 users i’ve spoken to is that the Kevlar string works exceedingly well. directly compared to a number of tt’s, belt, idler and direct drive.
i’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.
i would expect that CS Port has their good reasons to use kevlar. |
mikelavigne
feedback from CS Port LFT1 users i’ve spoken to is that the Kevlar string works exceedingly well. directly compared to a number of tt’s, belt, idler and direct drive.
i’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.
i would expect that CS Port has their good reasons to use kevlar. IMO When a manufacturer of a product builds something - anything - there is a scale. Put simply to make a point here. It has been my experience as a consultant working in multiple industries. A-----------B-------------C A - represents the best performance but usually not lasting as long. Short Life. B - represents middle of the road - good performance - lasts a good time. C - represents - durability longest lasting - performance not as good as A and B. Now depending on the field, A or B or C could be the best solution. Where do you think the Audiophilia field fits ? Well it depends of course. Where does Kevlar string fit for this particular TT. I don't know the TT. I don't know the answer. I do know that Kevlar has 1) durability, and 2) is good for marketing. It seems to have impressed
mijostyn based on his response. A regular person will say "Hey they make Bullet Proof Vests out of Kevlar". An audiophile might say - "Hey doesn't B&W use Kevlar in their drivers ?" 3) It is slippery more so than other examples tried. Now think slippery, and a big heavy platter, and the force required of the string around the platter, that will be needed to turn it - and this will depend entirely on the motor design. So each string drive design is unique on its own. More variables ! ******************************************************* Look, I own authentic Verdier string that came with my turntable. I did give it a good go. I don't use it anymore for a number of reasons. Its doesn't make my TT perform/sound as good as it can. and 2) maybe more important - does not allow me to set up my TT in a fashion that allows for this best performance. Now most people are just happy with the basic 101 setup, and leave it at that. Some even change the pulley and use a belt (sacrilege...) JC Verdier RIP - rolls in his grave each time this happens. I’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with. Changing out the string, and the (length)..... if the design allows, is sonically like changing out power tubes - EL34, KT66, KT88, etc... just as one quick example. You will get a leaner, thicker, bloatier, quicker, slower, etc.... performance / presentation with different strings/threads. On the 2nd part of your paragraph - this is a good thing if you own a cat / feline.... |
i agree with your views up to a point. it is possible that one choice is actually better or best all around, and not just a different set of compromises. but more likely it's as you put it.
were i to go down the string drive, heavy platter road, no doubt i would have to become conversant in these 'voicing' string drive material choices. |
Mike, so you are a political animal after all.
ct0517, A,B and C are gross assumptions that are probably more often then not incorrect. The ceramic brakes on my car look better, last way longer and stop way better than steel brakes. The magnetic bearing in clearaudio tables performs and lasts longer than standard bearings. The Nikasil liners in my engine work better and last way longer than other cylinder liners. Why would a Koetsu not last as long as a Sumiko or an Air Tight not as long as a Kiseki. Why would a SAT arm not last as long as a Jelco. I could go on forever.
Now I have never used a string table but my meager brain can not fathom why any other string would sound better than the kevlar one CS uses on a platter that weights more than my car. They admit to the fact that it is a very slow starting table that would occur with any string. Carbon Kevlar will not stretch which I can see as a huge advantage in this instance. |
i use the information at hand.
when i observe the depth of ct's experiences in his system link it's clear he has spent lots of time on the thread issue. i know from my time studying the AS-2000 when i had it on order that the whole drive thread question is not anything black and white. so i think my answer is the only reasonable way to respond considering i have zero first hand experience.. i'm leaving the possibility that the CS Port view of using the Kevlar might be the one true way, but that more likely it's not certain.
i'm in 'learn' mode here on this issue. it's not being nice, just knowing what i don't know.
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Appreciate the comments Mike.
Mijostyn - Let me try to explain this better.
It’s not the string itself that has a "sound". Its how the "material used" is handled by the very small motor pulley, and how the string handles the platter - that produces the presentation.
One can use different string materials, with different compliance’s. One can also change the force with which the string is wrapped between the motor pulley and platter. Both ways produced different results. And whichever works best depends on the turntable design objective. The tighter the wrap, the more the motor performance influences the platter performance. The looser wrap puts less motor influence in play. My target is to give the motor the least amount of motor influence due to its Platter design - more on this in a minute. .
So my string is applied loose - so loose that I can flick the string between the motor and platter and a listener can not hear any stability issue. The motors influence is so little on the platter design, that if I change the pitch / speed, the change takes maybe 5 seconds or more to register to the ear.
The platter design is unlike most in that it is not free spinning - the opposite forces generated from the magnets produce a braking action, which from conversing directly with Mr. Verdier (when he was alive), helps to deal with the records erratic behavior due to the large and small groove modulations. It needs only occasional shots from the motor to keep at speed and overcome stylus drag. Note; A turntable with a free spinning platter would need significantly more motor control. This would change the requirement for the type of string that will be used also . make sense ?
Now if I set the string tension tighter - the same flick of the string will cause audible results because the motor influence has much greater control. This IMO was not how the motor was designed to be used with this turntable (tight), especially by those who bypass the string and use belt. This is also why I feel those that have modified their La Platine Verdiers with different motors - have gone that route. They were too tight, and the genius in the design of his Platter System - was not taken advantage of.
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Mike, smart man. I like to theorize which sometimes gets me into trouble but I am in the camp that says "everything has a reason, cause and effect." Plus, a lot of stuff we wind up buying before we can really evaluate it like ski boots. So, you look at design and construction intelligently and pray you made the right choice. Now I have to look at what cd say in response. Off the top I would say a very stiff string would do much better than a stretchy one. In reality I would bet no one would be able to hear the difference unless the string were really stretchy (same problem as a really stretchy belt.)
Cd, I have to go look at the design of your turntable. Be back later today. |
The belt string thing has been talked about for decades. I would bet the guys who played with various strings belts and tape, ended up with tape. Tape being the biggest pain. If I had to sell to general public, tape would be my last choice.
For the self proclaimed thinkers, 3 obvious reasons for sound difference could be stretch , sound transfer, and traction. I am in traction camp, making the most difference.
My suggestion for anyone serious about getting what ever sound they are looking for, try the various choices above. If you have a expensive belt drive have a machine shop make you some pulleys. Read thru past literature and you off to the races.
Enjoy the ride
Tom |
Ct0517, Sorry for miss spelling your name. I have reviewed the design of the Verdier. It has a 16 kg platter with a reverse spindle supported by opposing magnets, belt or string drive. If the magnets are oriented correctly they should have no braking action. The reason to use opposing magnets is to lower friction and hence noise. I personally like the air bearing concept better as I am allergic to magnets near cartridges but that is me. Now, you have a very massive platter. With mass goes inertia. It does not like to move and it does not like to stop moving. In a frictionless, airless environment it would continue spinning indefinitely.
The mass of the rotor in your motor is an order of magnitude smaller. It is much easier to move and easier to stop moving. Once the turntable reaches a steady state speed it requires very little input to keep that speed going, whatever it takes to overcome friction and air resistance.
At this point the platter is really in control of the motor. Because of the relative difference in mass the platter will smooth out any irregularities in the motor. If the motor is cogging you would never be able to detect that at the platter with any instrumentation including your ears. Could you ever detect any motor noise coming down the string and infecting the platter?
That would be like a VW bug trying to tow a beached aircraft carrier. Sitting on the deck sipping a pina colada you would never even know the VW was there. Now the stretchier the string the lower any resonant frequency in the drive system would be. The Carbon Kevlar string would have a much higher resonance frequency but it does not matter because it is totally dampened by the mass of the platter. This is why Rolls Royce goes out of it's way to make the most massive cars on the planet. They ride smoother.
Ct0517 I can not argue with your ears. You do whatever you think makes your system sound better. The only reason a stiff string transfers the force of your finger flicking it is because it is stiffer. Your motor does not apply force that way. A stretchier belt will transfer just as much noise but at a lower frequency. In your example you can't hear it because the frequency is down below what most systems can reproduce. Hook up an oscilloscope and you will see it.
Mike, my daughter will be living in Shanghai for a year. She is going to look into getting the CS Port turntable. It should be much less. Rock and Roll! |
mijostyn - I want to thank you very much for the CD mention on an audio site - it gave me a chuckle .
I need some chuckles you know after the Canadian federal election results.8^(
Just a forum misunderstanding that's all in this case on the term braking action. You may use the term damping if you like. To slow down implies braking as far as I am concerned.
As you know take two fridge magnets - same poles facing each other - just try to make them come together and stay together - 8^0
oh....if someone is successful at this, please let Geoffkait know.
Now picture two very nicely isolated magnetic circles - one positioned above the other. Same poles facing one another. The top one is attached to the bottom of the platter and it rotates only.
the force between them causes levitation and the damping / braking action. The platter will support an 8 kilogram center weight - if one were inclined.
Now
with the string engaged, motor pulley and platter, if I turn the motor off, things wind down slowly and the platter takes about 20 seconds to come to a dead stop.
If I instead cut the string with scissors - the platter stops in a much shorter time - 1/4 the time from what I remember - due to the damping braking force between the magnets.
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Mike, my daughter will be living in Shanghai for a year. She is going to look into getting the CS Port turntable. It should be much less. Rock and Roll! Rock and Roll indeed! wow! congrats on having a daughter that (1) can buy a turntable like that, and (2) wants to buy a turntable like that.....and of course (3) gets to spend a year in Shanghai. exciting place, never been myself. don’t think CS Port has mainland China distribution yet, but Japan is close. good luck on the price part....less.....but maybe not 'much' less. my daughter likes music, but is not audiophile or vinyl lover. my expectations are more minimal. i just wish her and her husband (married 10+ years) would give me a grandkid or three. i could spend time with them and not buy so much hifi gear. |
My daughter is a heavy music lover. She sang opera in collage. She is not an audiophile. Her fiance might be. He certainly gets big smiles listening to the rig.
As for the CS, it should be less expensive depending on import fees and shipping although I could have them bring it back on their flight it still has to make it through customs. There are ways though to lighten the load so to speak....if she can get one. I'll put my 4 point 14 in the second position. It is my Koetsu arm. The platter weights 27 Kg! That is 60 lb and it is stainless steel with is non magnetic and a great shield. I'll have to have a dust cover made for it. Another paltry $300.00
Good luck with the grand kids. Maybe you need to give your son in law lessons??
Mike |
Ct, I'm not going to step into that one. All I can say is you guys need to treat your doctors better so the good ones stop coming down here.
You are saying that when you cut the string it takes less time for the platter to come to a stop. That does not make sense to me. The magnets don't change in any way and you are releasing it from the drag of the motor yet it takes 1/4 of the time to stop? |
^^
When I cut the power to the motor you can hear the internal gears still working, winding down slowly - as the string is still attached to the pulley it keeps turning the platter.
32.5 seconds. just tried it. Now I don't feel like cutting the string right now 8^0. take my word on the shorter duration.
oh and I can cut the power for a couple seconds, turn it on again and the music doesn't miss a beat to the listener, like flicking the string.
From the moment I heard this table in 101 set up at the beginning with the first record - I knew I was done. End of the road. Same goes for my tonearm. That was many years ago. I do still enjoy talking tech and helping others get set up through the winter months. Good luck on your new turntable.
My fraternal twins love music and they know all the music I love - but millennial's get I would say 60-70% of the satisfaction with their portable systems. They are happy with that. I don't see any wanting to set up a system that is not portable. I am thinking of starting a thread.
"The Audiophile's Equipment Burden on the Family" and "Strategies to Deal with the Burden"
I thought for myself the gear was going to be the burden. Nope - its the records on two floors of our house.
Cheers Chris |
Yes, the software is all over the place. More luck than brains but when I first met my wife I had Magnepan Tympani's. Anything is an improvement after those. My kids having grown up with this stuff are certainly music lovers but it does seem like high end Hi Fi's are lower on their list of priorities. |
