@corelli I’m using Herbie’s Giant Threaded Stud Gliders. Depending on what thread size your outriggers can take, they may be a relatively inexpensive option. $280 for a set of 8, less if you are using a three point outrigger. Herbie also has a very generous trial and return policy. They are listed about 2/3rds of the way down the page in this link: http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htmI’m using an unconventional setup with two sets of Herbie’s Giant Gliders and an isolation shelf in between, with excellent results. I have the Gaia IIs and they made a slight difference but not enough to justify the spend (vs my Herbie's setup). They will be going back (for the reasons that Mac mentions: too much weight for the IIs to perform well) and I will have to either go with the Gaia I or take a chance with stability/tip over concerns and go forward with a Star Sound Tech platform (which has been my first choice for a long time now, but I’ve been holding off on account of my son’s safety). |
I was using Stillpoints Ultra SS under my Crescendo's with good results but they leaned out the mid-range too much and since then I've found the Audio Points to be "Outstanding" and is what I'm using with very good results... http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/Wig |
Very good discussion on this worthwhile topic of vibration/resonance management. There are no shortage of products available that's for sure. I happen to use the Star Sound Apprentice platforms under all of my components and speakers. They are very effective and unquestionably improve the sound quality. Most especially with speakers. It's a well thought out and engineered product.
Charles |
@aniwolfe “If your interested in DIY route. You might want to search for "DIY Roller Blocks" ”
Thanks for this tip as I built a set for my Lyngdorf 2170 with great results for under $50. I am building another for my server/player and BPT & CPT balanced conditioners. |
I made my own "outriggers" out of 5/16"th X 1 -1/2"W X 15" long steel, with Sound City 2.10" spikes with good results. |
@mac48025 You should try the Roller Block Jr’s with and without the tops (carbine balls touching the component). I heard that in some cases they sound better without the tops. Supposedly you get more jiggle action. Which would equate to less dampening without the tops. If you put under wood then I would stick with the tops on or get something like a marble tile to put between the tungsten ball and the wood. The other things is, you might be able to expand on your investment if you use 1 side of the RBjr’s. If so, you can buy 3 additional tungsten carbine balls and use it on another component. https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1008207-symposium-rollerblock-jr-hdse.jpg |
Coaxial midrange/tweeter drivers for car audio have time alignment issues but don't sound terrible. My suspicion is that powerful bass frequencies travel all through the cabinet ricocheting of end points and arrive at midrange drivers as spurious noise, far more damaging to perceived midrange audio quality. Also, internal speaker reflections occur at tiny fractions of bass frequency wavelengths exciting much higher frequency content in a cabinet (unless it's a transmission line design). That's where RF and acoustic energy analogies part ways. Low frequency energy can vibrate smaller structures to be transformed into higher frequency content, think higher frequency buzzing from those trunk subwoofers blasting rap.
Does mixing in the RF world apply to acoustics? If it does than a 60hz cabinet horizontal plane resonance distorts midrange by +/- 60Hz while high frequency vibrations would obviously be much more damaging. Another thought is that the cabinet is small enough that it may not effectively couple that low of frequency, or the midrange driver mounting is to small an aperture to effectively couple those frequencies. Dali does some work on driver rigidity to eliminate resonances and distortion.
I do believe the horizontal plane distortion at low frequencies remains as an equal and opposite reaction but is not coupled into the cabinet material. Hence the directionality of the Gaia footers delivering optimium results.
While I'm no expert on the subject, Herbie's footers would seem to work great on hard wood or tile since the lossy material comes in better contact with the hard surface as opposed to carpet. Mapleshade products are interesting and I share Tom's sentiments on the blocks.
Given how lively the DI cabinets are, it's not surprising an engineered sandwiched footer makes such a difference. I suspect first reflection point treatments on the walls and ceiling could fall into the same level of improvements. Room correction still delivers large improvements for me, but will find out more as I treat my room.
Merry Christmas everyone. Really enjoyed this thread over many months.
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I’m considering the GAIA II footers for my DI’s, but am worried about what everyone is saying about the weight limits. I would hope that IsoAcoustics would produce a product that is at or close to 100% effectiveness within the stated weight limit parameters.
Hearing that dealers are telling customers that the GAIA II footers lose effectiveness at upper weight limits (100lb Double Impact vs 120lb GAIA II weight limit) is like hearing that an amplifier markedly increases THD towards the upper limits of stated power. Red flag. Is this the dealers trying to get a more expensive product (GAIA I) sold, or is this a case of poor specifications?
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@david_ten The Herbies Giant Gliders with an isolation shelf makes sense as a 90% solution, especially with carpet. Since I'm on a budget, the law of diminishing returns and value has to be obeyed. Did you say you were using some one off composite platforms or do I have you confused with someone else?
I could always try some spare particle board shelves as an A/B comparison, better conduction into the shelf but doubt without substantial acoustic attenuation. Perhaps isolation pucks sandwiched between 2 shelves and the Herbies. Could be more trouble than it's worth and just stick to the Herbies alone. So many possibilities!
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It sure makes things confusing bliptrip. I was all set on buying the Gaia II's when calling Music Direct. From what I gathered talking to the tech rep is that the Gaia II's will work with the DI's.......just not as effectively since they would be compressed so much they wouldn't be able to disappate vibrational energy as well. He wasn't pushing to sell the Gaia I's so much as he was explaining that isolation devices as a whole don't perform as well at their upper weight limits. I certainly didn't want to spend the extra money on the Gaia I's but after hearing them on the DI's I'm glad I did.
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@bliptrip I had the same concern regarding the Gaia II with the SE, being that the SE comes in right at 120lbs. I do have them screwed into the base of the SEs and I have noted an ever so slight upside over my Herbie's system. I have not used them on the DIs, but I will prior to sending the Gaia IIs back. [Please Note: They are on my base with Herbie's Giant Fat Gliders; See Below]
@brotw My Herbie's 'system' is comprised of the Herbie Giant Fat Gliders under a composite isolation platform/shelf that was designed for a rack. This shelf is 18X20X1 inch and fits the DIs and SEs perfectly.
Here's what it adds up to for each speaker: 4 Fat Gliders under the shelf and 4 Giant Threaded Stud Gliders screwed into the base of the DIs (where the included spikes would be screwed in). This came to $464 for the 16 Gliders (both speakers). Add the cost of any isolation platform you choose to use.
I like this setup for a few reasons:
1. I can move the entire system around without removing the speakers.
2. If I remove the speakers, they still have the gliders on, so moving them separately is very handy.
3. I found that doubling up resulted in better results than only with the Gliders in the speakers (this is how most would normally use the Gliders)
4. It adds over an inch in height over just having one set of Gliders in, which I find helps with the bass performance.
5. I can play around with different bases and base materials if I want to.
6. I can add something like the RollerBlocks discussed above in the thread. I personally use Ingress Engineering's bearings and cups for components. I have not experimented yet, under the speakers or under the platforms, but I will in the future. Putting them under the platform would preserve the finish of the speaker base.
7. The platforms I am using match the finish of the DIs and the SEs and are therefore a hit aesthetically.
****Please note that I have hardwood flooring and no carpeting or rugs underneath.
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David, Thanks for sharing your set up. For us with carpet, the alternatives to Gaia footers are more complicated as a spiked end point with absorptive material or roller ball somewhere in the chain is desired. There are ways to make this happen (mapleshade, rollerblocks, ingress bearings) but I'm leaning toward the simpler Gaia approach or go budget with Herbie's threaded glider approach (on carpet). |
Townshend Seismic Isolation Bars? Anyone using them with the DIs or with previous experience / exposure? Thanks. |
@brotw Herbie's does offer Cone / Spike options for carpeted flooring. |
My SE's finally arrive tomorrow afternoon. I hope to get them in place and hooked up tomorrow but it will be quite a while before I'll be able to properly evaluate them. Since we are experiencing single digit temperatures here, it may take them a day just to thaw out! :) |
Great to hear. You have a 300B electric blanket... : ) |
Well......my 300B is back with Aric getting a whole new face lift and some other enhancements while he's building a matching Linestage to go along with it. I'll have to heat them with the KT 120 for now 🔥 🔉 |
Tom, if anything, the cryo treatment should be an upside. :) |
Tom,
What are you hoping your new preamp will deliver in contrast to your microZOTL?
Nice tube weather isn't it? Consider your new SE's as cryo treated!
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You both went the cryo route! :)
Corelli, im hoping for a possible synergy between the pre and amp since they will be built together and from the same components. The MZ2 will be difficult to top though. |
SE Update! I’m comfortable that break-in is behind me; And that I’ve had enough time with them to share impressions.
My pair of Double Impact Special Edition (SE) speakers have been running since December 1st. Four Weeks of run time!
The finish and workmanship is exceptional and is in a Mercedes Diamantsilber Metallic finish.
For reference:
- PC based, networked, Tidal/Roon > Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Schiit Yggdrasil (Gen 5 USB) // Denafrips Terminator > Pass XP-20 > Pass XA-30.8
- My primary DAC input is USB for 2ch music. I utilize the Optical/TosLink input for TV and movies. No additional processing.
- The speakers are on a double set of Herbie’s Giant Gliders (speaker footers) with an isolation platform between the two sets of Gliders.
So what do the SEs bring to the table versus the DIs, that is readily apparent and likely to be considered ’better’ by most?
The SEs are:
- More Refined
- More Resolving
- More Transparent
- Offer Improved Clarity and Detail and Insight
- Exhibit Finer and Tighter Control, therefore (along with the points above) they
- Offer Greater and Better Definition, Layering and Separation
- Image more Precisely
- Present a Wider, Deeper, Larger and more holographic Sound Stage
Because of the increased transparency and resolution there is greater clarity and therefore more extension at both frequency extremes.
Two remarkable areas that stood out for me (versus the DIs) are in the fidelity of reproducing the sound of metal or metal based notes (for example metal strings) and in reproducing the female voice with delicacy and sweetness and naturalness.
To my ears and in my system:
- I find the SEs to be slightly different in tone and timbre than the DIs. Both are tonally balanced and cohesive/coherent.
- I find the DIs to be more forward than the SEs.
- I find the bass of the SEs to be different than that of the DIs...it is fuller, has more body, weight and energy, and it loads my room more than the DIs do at similar settings. Bass tonality for both speakers is very good, but also noticeably different (to my ears).
- I find the SEs to ’disappear’ slightly better than the DIs
- I find the SEs to have a lighter, delicate, more nuanced touch when the composition/music calls for it
I’ll use the ’thoroughbred’ analogy to point out that (in my opinion) the SEs are (versus the DIs) more sensitive and require more care with positioning and room placement and with system synergy.
Everything I’ve reported above does not diminish my love and enjoyment of the DIs. Both are great speakers. To those of you that have the DIs, please know that you still possess an exceptional speaker. Let me repeat that, YOU HAVE AN EXCEPTIONAL SPEAKER in the DIs, period.
A shout out of thanks to Eric Alexander and his Assistant Karma of Tekton Design for their ongoing help and support before, during and after the SEs were ordered/delivered.
A Massive Thank You to Terry @teajay who was instrumental in my choosing the SEs and his support and guidance before making the decision as well as after the SEs were in my system. And to Mike Kay for being there!
I want to recognize Bob @bullitt5094 , Tom @mac48025 , Prem @premnath and Dave @dlcockrum for their assistance and guidance after I received the SEs. Thank you gentlemen!
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Thanks for such a complete and well stated review David. I hope you enjoy many, many hours of musical enjoyment from your SE's.
While le I have nothing to report on the SE's sonics I can say they are gorgeous speakers. As David stated the fit and finish is exceptional. The BMW metallic mineral gray I had my painted in is gorgeous. In a dark room like mine the true beauty of the color doesn't get to show its true colors.....I just might have to install some spotlights on them to show its full potential. Vain, I know :) The woofers look much more substantial than the DI's, I like the look of the domed tweeters. I know, many don't like their looks but I do!
I too have many to thank in helping me make this purchase. First and foremost Mike Kay of Audio Archon whom I purchased them through. His audio knowledge is only surpassed by his patience in putting up with my impatience:) To teajay for his reviews of the DI's, SE's and Ulfbehrts along with the LTA, Aric Audio, Concert Fidelity and CEC gear I now have in my system. To David has been so kind in lending his expertise and appraisal of the SE's. To Charles for opening my ears to what a SET amp can provide along with his encouragement, advice and so many others here that have given or offered help on just about everything audio.
btw......I'm listening to the SE's for the first time. I want my DI's back! What do you mean that I can't fully assess a speaker after a whole 3 minutes with them? :)
They sound just I thought they would tonight.....like brand new speakers that spent all day in a truck with temperatures in the single digits. Right out of the box they sound nice but have a lot of loosening up to do.....obviously. They will be playing for 12-14 hours a day for the next week or two! They should have a hundred hours on them by the time I get my 300b back. I'm looking forward to that. |
David,
Thanks for taking the time to post your listening impressions and comparison of the 2 Tekton speakers. Given your clear writing I feel that I have a very good understanding of what distinguishes them apart. Congratulations! It seems they (SEs) are going to be long term keepers. I'm assuming that you prefer them over the Volti speakers you had a while back.
Charles |
Thank you David, that’s exactly what I was hoping to hear. Im looking forward to sharing about mine in 3 or 4 months.
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Tom, Charles, and Lance...Thanks.
Tom, you will want your DIs back for a few days. I found the break in for the SEs to take some time.
Charles, that's a great question (re the Volti Audio Rivals). I say that both speaker sound signatures are different enough that I would prefer both! : ) At some point down the road I would like to have a full horn speaker and / or an open baffle speaker in the house.
Lance, hope your wait isn't that long, but it will certainly be worth it. |
While I'm only 20 hours in with the SE's they sound incredible. They do everything I like about the DI's......only better. One of the many aspects of the DI's I loved was how they disappeared into a wall of sound. The SE's wall of sound is deeper, wider and filled with more air. The SE's excel in tone, texture, detail, refinement and realism. They aren't fully broken in yet but I'm thoroughly enjoying them nonetheless.
The bass hasn't fully filled in yet but like the DI's I'm sure it will within 2-4 weeks. Vocals have a slight harsh edge to them but that is diminishing seemingly by the hour. At first I thought the SE's might be a bit too refined....too polite sounding, but switching from TungSol BGRP 12SN7's to 40's Sylvania's in the mz2 sure changed that. It woke the SE's up making them as lively sounding as the DI's but with more refinement. It's quite spectacular sounding.
The DI's are wonderful speakers and if not for my respect of teajay's and Mike Kay's audio prowess and their glowing reviews of the SE's I would have been very happy staying with them. I'm so glad I listened to their advice and ordered the SE's though. I can only imagine how much better they will sound with more time on them and with my 300B when I get it back. They've made this a great start to the New Year! |
Hi Tom,
Now that is an encouraging initial listening report 😊. I believe that the addition of the Aric Audio 300b amplifier and matching preamplifier is going to put you into deep sonic bliss orbit.
Charles |
@ grannyring
The
Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Speaker/Driver
is 6" not 6 1/2, how will you put that in the DI?
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Thanks Charles,
I should have my 300b back the end of next week, hoping you'll have time afterwards to come have a listen.
Im interested in whether the synergy between the 300B and matching linestage will outperform the 300B with the MZ2. The MZ2 will be hard to beat but it's a real win for me if Aric's linestage beats it out. |
@backsigns. The Alphalite 6A is exactly the same dimension as the Alpha 6a in the DI. Exactly the same in terms of fit. It is a 6.5 inch diameter driver per the spec sheet. I have not used it as I am using the Beta 6a. I think it would sound nice based on the specs. I “think” it is being used in the SE version. I am not 100% sure. The SE marketing verbiage and pics certainly point right to it.
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Tom,
No doubt that the MZ2 is a fine Line Stage. However it’s possible that Aric may create some synergy magic given he building them to match as a pair. You’ll find out soon😊.
Charles |
While I’m now waiting for the DI SE, I have tried quite a few amps with the DI’s to find the combo I like the best. I have borrowed some big SS amps from friends and a few different LTA amps as well. I have now tried Benchmark AHB2, Mirror Image 1.1SB, Plinius SA103, LTA MZ2, LTA ZOTL40 and the LTA mystery amp I reported on months ago when Mark loaned me his prototype. The mystery amp is the 20 watt UltraLinear. Mark has built one for me though the production model isn’t quite ready yet.
The UltraLinear is a keeper. I have never heard the DI’s sound this good. It really does sound like the MZ2 on steroids with crushing dynamics and tight bass like the best SS. There’s a creamy midrange goodness of tubes and sparkle at the top. It makes music flow so very naturally and has the blackest of backgrounds. I am really enjoying the DI’s, time to make room for the SE.
Lance
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Happy New Year to everyone.
I was able to ring it in with a visit to Bob's ( @bullitt5094 ) home in the Houston area.
THANK YOU Bob for your being so kind and gracious in allowing me into your home to share your system and for accommodating me during the holidays.
I was able to listen to the Ulfberths driven by the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 in Bob's dedicated audio and home theater room.
I'm very very impressed with the Ulfs, more than I expected to be. Have to say I'd love to have them in my system...but they are imposing. Even being familiar with them and knowing their dimensions wasn't enough to prepare me for their literal presence. A bigger sound all around. If you love and appreciate bass and room energy and lifelike imaging and soundstaging, these are a must audition. Impressive.
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Happy new year to everyone.
Congrats Mac48025 and david_ten on your new DI SE.😊
I too received mine. Set it up yesterday. Initial impressions are very good.
Would like to thank teajay, mike kay, charles1dad and david_ten for their inputs and guidance
Mac48025, do you fire the speakers straight? Are you using the one third placement principle for the SE too like you mentioned you did for the DI?
Eric suggested I fire the speakers straight or toe them out by 5-15 degrees
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That had to be fun David. Thankfully the Ulfs aren't an option for me with my low ceilings as I can't afford to spend any more money on audio for a while! :)
Congrats premnath, you're in for a lot of musical fun. They are sounding better and better every day for me
I have the SE's very slightly toe'd ......probably 5 degrees or so. Placement is pretty much the same as I had the DI's. 6' o.c. and pretty close to the one third placement. I never intended the one third placement it just worked out that way. I'm a foot further back than an equilateral triangle with my listening position 7' from the speakers. In my room that placement has worked best for me but I've been experimenting with different listening positions....from 5-10' away....and I seem to come back to the 6-7' distance.
Im still getting used to the SE's. TwIce yesterday I got up to investigate what was making noises behind me......it was the music! |
Thanks mac48025. I also pretty much ended up at the one third placement position. Have you toed your speakers in or out? Eric suggested out
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Toe'd out? I never considered that, or even heard of it. Seems like there would be a lot more room reflections. I'll give it a try though. |
Even I was surprised. Once they have run in a bit will try toe out
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Yup toed out it works on my impact monitor. Music fills my listening room , 3D is much better, instrument has more space...it’s more live in my listening room... |
Thanks jayctoy, I appreciate your input. I'll definitely give it a try tonight......even though I'm not looking forward to moving those beasts! About how far do you have them toe'd out? 5-10 degrees?
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Thanks premnath and jayctoy, I'm listening to the SE's slightly toe'd out right now. My initial impressions are quite favorable. I figured the center would collapse, but not the case. The speakers disappear even more. I'll experiment with differant listening positions but about 8' away sounds damned good right now. Thanks again for that easy and for once no cost tweak! |
You guys can’t mean turned outwards toward the outside side wall?
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Yes Bill, crazy as it sounds! I've been listening to it this way for almost an hour now and am really liking it. Now, I have a symmetric dedicated room with quadratic diffusers to the sides, behind and above me so that might help but believe it or not the center imaging not only didn't collapse but it's deeper and more open now.... with a wider, more embracing soundstage. Goes against convention but it's working great for me so far. Who'd have thunk it? |
Tom,
I ’don’t find your results unusual. The build/designer himself made this recommendation, he would know😊. The beauty of speaker repositioning is it’s cost free and just requires some time and effort. You trust your ears to determine which position is best for your room. Tom you have good ears so you’ll get it figured out right.
Charles |
Hey Charles,
Thanks and I agree, let ones ears determine what is best for oneself. You’re also correct that it’s a no brainer to at least try it, it’s the cheapest change I’ve made to my system yet 🤑 I’m glad it was Eric that originally suggested it or I probably wouldn’t have tried it. I’ll experiment further with listening position tonight. Moving about two feet further from the speakers than I was before has improved things a bit further yet. When you come over to hear the new system, no making fun of my speakers pointing the wrong way....lol.
Tom |
I think once your speakers have 500 hours on them you will no longer toe them out. Let us know as this has me more than scratching my head 🧐. I shall try this just for kicks.
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You are probably right Bill. It totally goes against convention but I'll keep enjoying it for now. Jayctoy is having success toeing his Impact Monitors out also. The mad speaker scientist Eric might be onto something here! 🔉🔉 |
I'll state the obvious, this would certainly be room, system and listener dependant. But again this is why experimentation is such fun.
Charles |
So true Charles. Being that my room is symmetrical and treated might make it a perfect candidate for this type of speaker positioning. I look forward to hearing about prenmaths, jayctoys and anyone else trying this experiences and room conditions.
Tom |
