I have dedicated audio room 14.5x20.5x9 ft. Currently have Marantz Reference CD/Intergrated paired to Magnepan 1.7's with REL T-7 subs. For the vast majority of music I love this system. The only nit pick is that it is lacking/limited in covering say below 35 hz or so. For the first time actually buzzed the panel with an organ sacd. Bummer. Thought of upgrading subs to rythmicks but then I will need to high pass the 1.7's. Really don't want to deal with that approach.
Enter the Double Impacts. Many interesting things here. Would certainly have a different set of strengths here. Dynamics, claimed bottom octave coverage in one package, suspect a good match to current electronics.
I've read all the threads here so we do not need to rehash that. Just wondering if others out there have FIRST HAND experience with these or other Tekton speakers
Corelli, Yes the talent and skill of the speaker designer/builder is the most impactful variable. No question though that the quality of parts are a major factor. This is why the Double Impact SE is intriguing. Same design with higher grade Scanspeak drivers and crossover components. I wonder what is the performance gap between the two versions.
Presumably any differences heard would be attributed to the different parts used. Charles
Craig, The moving mass is probably not as important as the Fs and power handling of the tweeter. There are many fine tweeters that might be employed in Eric's designs. The SB tweeter is a huge bargain and a major factor in the tremendous value the DI's offer.
I mentioned before a ScanSpeak two way DIY in my past that used top shelf drivers costing well over $200 each. This was a design by a well respected individual in the DIY community. Crossover all hardwired with components far more expensive than what's in the DI's. Sold them in one year.
Moral of the story for me is that premium drivers do not a winner make. The art of speaker design is far more important. This is why the DI's deliver the goods.
There's a new review on the website DAGOGO by Richard Austen regarding a new company's (KingKo Audio) KA-101 integrated amplifier that right now sells for whopping $830.00! It's a P/P 12 watt El-84 based design. It also has a built in PREAMP IN feature so you can run it directly with your preamplifier. Austen's review is very informative regarding SET designs comparing them to P/P and different kinds of power tubes. He raves that this little inexpensive amp is extremely well built, very easy to roll the tubes to get a higher performance, is cool looking (twin meters) and competes with much more expensive amps. He believes that it comes somewhat close to some of the special qualities of an SET. I know nothing about this author, but he writes well and has some very good gear in his system and has tried amps from Audio Space/Line Magnetic, so he seems legit. Hell, I have wasted more money on a few bad meals then this amp costs, so this might be worth checking out if you want to play with tubes driving the DI's.
That's exactly why I asked. Was under the impression that ring tweeters were much lower in mass than dome ones and, therefore, how this change might alter his balance ideal.
Congrats on your SNs; mine are much later, 229 & 230, but still have the original SB tweeters that sound fine to me.
No Craig, I haven't......or at least I don't think I have. I have the first pair of DI's made, so whatever tweeters Eric started with is what I have. I don't imagine changing tweeters will affect his patent too much as the concept stays the same......usIng low mass transducers to replicate real sound. I imagine Eric changed drivers due to availability or to improve upon the sound.
Have you heard what make/model of dome tweeter Eric is now using in place of the original SB Acoustics ring ones? Wonder what affect this will have on his patent concept of low mass drivers.
While I've not owned any of the latest Vandersteen models I enjoyed the model 1A's, 2 CE's and 3A's for many years......along with a pair of 2w's. I've been a Vandersteen fan for many years but the DI's provide a level of musical realism that no other speaker I've owned has duplicated. There are many great speaker manufacturers, and IMO Richard Vandersteen is one of them, yet for me Eric Alexander of Tekton Design has made the music more real than any other. I look forward to hearing what his PMD line has to offer. Just my 2 cents.
I'd be curious to know where they eventually end up. I think the DI's are fairly flexible on room placement but clearly respond to small changes and tweaking their position. In my 14.5x21x9 foot room mine ended up almost pulled out 1/3 from the front wall with my listening spot 2/3 from the front wall. Speakers 8.5 ft apart, equilateral triangle with seat. Very smooth and open sound. Give up a small amount of low end extension but gains in bass quality and sound stage.
Once yours break in let us know where they sound best.
Corelli: You are right about Copland and the holiday. Share your enthusiasm for Telarc releases and enjoyed your description of the Rodeo orchestra -- very good. Like the bass instruments and low drums in the Teldec release Shostakovich: Symphony #5 by Rostropovich and the National Symphony Orchestra (who will be playing today in DC on tv). Use this to show off the DIs bass handling and it is too good -- makes you listen too loudly! Am going to have to take some listening time off to let the ears recover...
glad to hear you are enjoying the DI's, especially with the MZ2......together they make a killer budget friendly combination.
deep, musical bass is something the DI's excell at, maybe some tweaking of speaker and/or listening position will get you all the way there. Herbies Giant Threaded Gliders improved the bass on mine but I think you already have them. The same goes for the TungSol round plates. How far apart are your speakers? Moving mine from 7' to 6' O.C. filled in the bass more......as does pulling the speakers 4-5' out from the back wall. Easier said than done more often than not.
Once your DI's are fully dialed in I'll be very interested as to how they compare to your Janszens. Both great speakers and each will probably do things better than the other. It never ceases to amaze me how the DI's are constantly being compared to speakers costing many times more. That alone must put a smile upon Eric's face :)
The DI's are 2' from the front wall, about 8' to my seat and 8' apart. I have yet to experiment much with speaker placement. They do go through an interesting break-in period and change quite a bit.
Corelli, my room is 17' x 18' x 8.5' high and the DI's on the shorter wall but the room is almost square. I have a few diffusers and lots of bass traps.
Listening to Copeland's Rodeo/Telarc. The DI's are really doing justice to the big Telarc bass drum. The drum is so tight with really nice impact--closest to live I've heard. Strings are silky smooth but not without the magic that occurs when the rosined bow grips and releases the string. Brass is with nice bite. Gotta love it.
The new DI's have almost 100 hours on them. I've let them run non stop over the weekend. I still want to try some different speaker positioning but in my well treated room I don't really have any problems. I couldn't wait any longer so I pulled out the SS Benchmark AHB2 and inserted the Micro ZOTL and yes the 1 watt drives them to satisfying loud levels. As much as I love the Benchmark as my Reference SS amp, I prefer the Micro ZOTL. I will eventually need to try an SET but I'm also looking at some future LTA ZOTL amps coming down the road.
The Monitor Audio GX300 speakers I had in this system with its ribbon tweeters were bright enough to hurt the ears after a while. As jcarcapo mentioned there are no brightness issues with the DI's and if some think there is anything lacking in the highs they may be more accustomed to the brightness of some other speakers. Also compared to my previous speakers which were somewhat colored the DI's are completely neutral and colorless. They make real music as it's been said many times.
The woofers are now tightening up some and I'm hearing really good bass. I will wait for them to breakin some more before comparing to my Janszen electrostats but needless to say I'm impressed and I do hear what some have called an electrostat quality.
The bronzed orange looks good in my basement. I let my wife pick out the color so she feels she's invested in the system but every time she sees a new box arrive with stereo gear she starts talking about buying a new car, I think it's a Tesla this time.
Well, I started my morning with, you guessed it, Corelli. But you've inspired me to pull out a Copeland CD. To me, nothing paints a better American musical portrait in my mind than Copeland's "Appalachian Spring."
@craigl59: Thank you for your detailed response on your acoustic treatment builds. If I go the diy route, I will reach out to you and Eric for the specifics.
Kicking it off with the first listen of the day and a first listen of "Sugarloaf Mountain: An Appalachian Gathering" by Apollo's Fire Baroque Orchestra. Interesting coincidence as I read Kenny's above post because 'We'll Rant and We'll Roar' is playing...about leaving the Isles for America.
Exactly. My suspicion is that the ribbons have a slight amount of over-ring that cannot be physically damped at a minute time level. This momentary uncertainty will kill the sense of soundstage. Regardless, they were a fine speaker but have found that a full range tower has so many inherent advantages.
Can't match your biking activities but the Cavalier Spaniels have had their share of walks this holiday...
Wow. Lot of posts today. You guys must have had the day off! Good to see so much good discussion continuing. Currently my seasons biking mileage and the thread post total are going neck and neck. Will see who wins at first snowfall.
Craig, my experience going from Maggies to DI's was the same as yours. I did not expect the DI's to have more detail and precision with sound staging . They clearly bested the Maggies. I suspect the Maggies suffered a bit from their reflected sound blurring some of the direct arrival wave. Like Mac, sold my 1.7's 3 weeks later.
Good luck with the ZOTL 40 Kenny. Await your thoughts.
To the latest comments on their opinion of ML speakers whst you heard is Generations ago. As I wrote ,and please do read the latest reviews on the Masterpiece series 3 models that are powered ,that have dual subs per cabinet And the key 24bit,DSP- processing totally seamless from top yo bottom Then any conventional crossover these speakers have NO crossover whst cover From 300hz on up ,and that what makes these Loudspeakers so special. Plus room correction for the Bass. Go hear them today No stone went unturned including the quality of parts. Go hear these New models ,and do read the reviews All positive.
Get ready. The packaging and attention to detail in the box structure are truly opulent. You will genuinely enjoying pulling the CDs out of the well-designed folders -- if you can find the one you want out of 80 possibilities.
A number of recordings are the best I have ever heard: Copland's Appalachian Spring, Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings (stunning) and Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphoses. Bernstein's recordings of his own pieces are justifiably legendary. They literally spring out of the DIs.
BTW, there are no symphonies. They are in the first set, now out of print. It sold for $80 and is now being hawked on Amazon for $1k. What is Sony thinking?
If you need a broad selection of symphonies, go for the Karajan collection of 80 CDs (EMI/Warner) with his first orchestra, the Philharmonia, and his second, the Berlin Philharmonic. The last half of this set is worth the price; much of the first half is in mono and holds little attraction to me.
There is a good amount of hiss in the Bernstein set and will provide you with additional options if you like.
Thanks Craig, I just ordered it. Only $109.....for 80 cd's, sweet deal. Not sure I'll get to the point of ripping them to remove the tape hiss as I'm old school and just do Redbook CD's. Someday I might graduate to ripping and downloading! Thanks again for the tip.
Kenny, congrats on the ZOTL 40. Looking forward to your impressions of it. I was going to go that route but I just have to try the 2a3 SET first.
This afternoon, had the first opportunity to listen to a favorite Bluray performance of Holst's The Planets by Salonen and the Philharmonia Orchestra (Signum Vision recording). Have been using this recording for years to check for detail and accuracy in orchestral instruments -- many of which have very complex tonal structures.
The DIs distinguished themselves in reproducing each instrument clearly and with accurate timbre. The DIs are much more accurate than the Maggies I used for years (yes, more detail and precision) and just a bit more accurate than the Emotiva T1s that I use at my other home and like very, very much.
What struck me especially about the DIs with this very sophisticated recording (huge number of mics and bluray cameras) was how good the bass response was. Contrabassoons and bass clarinets were heard in ensemble passages as never before. The double basses extend throughout their entire range in uniform volume and sound completely well integrated into the total orchestra sound.
So, if you have questions about precision and detail with the DIs, listen to this Bluray. It will tell your ears the story.
Wanted to remove any reflected sound from behind the speakers so designed large 3'X4' boxes 3.5" thick that hold "clean" acoustical insulation (read no fiberglass) and designed an interior structure (a bit complicated) that would hold this loose insulation in place when held on the wall. All is covered with speaker cloth. Works very well and has made the room more transparent and musical without acquiring that "dead" sound that I have in the music room and studio from a complete stoppage of all reflection (good for recording but not so great for listening -- use Next Acoustics products for this studio purpose). Sent some photos to Eric and he might pass them on to you if you two communicate. Since then have done the same with the space between the speakers and the soundstage is now very clear. You can point to the horns in dense orchestral textures with no problems. Could not find a design that would do this on the web and, so, built my own. It's easier than dealing with a third party when you have a specialty need.
Traces of You is probably the best bet. There are some Thievery Corporation mixes (TC has some really good stuff, btw) and she does "Lucy in the Sky" with Milos Karadaglic. Otherwise she is all sitar.
Interesting to hear her British accent to NJ's American.
@craigl59: Yes, I can see that working. We have had to remove all of the draperies from the new house so I have over 100 pounds of thick silk and cotton fabric that I'm using as damping/absorbing material in the corners, and behind the speaker ports. We have the pics of the curtains out to a vintage shop to see if there is any interest, otherwise I might shred them and use them in slim boxes, in a manner that you suggest. Let me know how you designed / went about your wall panels. Thanks.
For those of you that like NJ, look up her sister Anoushka Shankar. Different track and evolution as an artist and NJ has collaborated on some of her work.
Used pillows rather than a stool in the same way and noticed the improvement. This led me to design and construct some wall panels that have cleaned up the issue entirely.
Have found that Herbie's gliders not only tighten up the bass but, because of the added vibration control, contribute to a more accurate soundstage. And, as well, if you damp the wall behind the soundstage area (= wall space between the two DIs) then the depth of the stage will open up as it does not have to compete with reflected waves.
You might want to check out the Bernstein Concertos and Orchestral Works available at Amazon -- 80 CDs for about $120. These are truly great recordings, many still the best of any recorded.
The original Columbia tapes were resampled by Sony at 24/96 and they issued them as a direct transfer to Redbook CD. Everything in the original tape is clearly presented, including the original tap hiss.
So, use some software package to remove the hiss and you’ve got a state-of-the-art sound that surpasses any 21st century recording I have heard (ADD can be that good). I rip them into JRiver and then use the Restoration Suite in the German DAW Samplitude to remove the hiss -- takes very little time but 80 CDs will requires an afternoon or so.
Curious that Sony left this hiss in the CDs when it is so trivial to remove it with modern DAWs. Could it be because they offered, at the same time, each CD individually in SACD format at $35-65 each? No hiss in the SACDs...
Am now listening to the Norah Jones "Come Away With Me" SACD and it is startling in accuracy. The engineers got the original right and the SACD processing brings her into your room.
Craig, it's funny that you mentioned that the DI's have you enjoying classical music again. I've always liked classical music but never bought much of it to listen to.....having the DI's is changing that and I'm adding more classical to my collection. The DI's dynamic qualities along with their detail, refinement and tonal balance makes them perfect for classical music I would think. Perfect for any music actually. Many people assume that due to their large size, large woofers and number of drivers that the DI's are party animal speakers, yet they are as delicate and transparent as any speaker I've owned......and yes, they can rock the house too!
Ron, congrats! Bass shouldn't be an issue at all with the DI's. Like you mine are in a similar size room with low cielings. Floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner worked wonders for me. I think once you get your room situation addressed the bass from the DI's will put a big smile upon your face. I also had the Legacy Focus SE's and found the DI's to have just as deep of bass with better quality, especially in the upper bass regions.
@ron1264 Congrats on getting your Double Impacts and getting them broken in. A suggestion on getting better bass: the traps will certainly help, but you might want to try raising them a couple of inches and using an isolation footer/platform. Both made a major difference for me. I’m still working out room treatment options, but for now old curtains drapped over small stools behind the woofer ports are helping.
I think you are correct. I think its a room size issue. If I stand behind my listening position, the bass gets much better. Unfortunately I can't move the seats back as that's how I get into the room. Maybe I'll give bass traps a try, i may be getting some cancellations .
Ron1264 Have had the DIs for about a month and agree with much of your assessment. Oddly, my set has always had plenty of bass (measured by REW down to 20z) and I am actually using EQ to soften it a little in order to make all balance. This seems to be a room size result as some responders feel the need for a sub and others, like me, find plenty of power there. The Eminence drivers become substantially more focused when broken in. Have also found that treating the wall behind the speaker removes conflicting sound wave reflections and cleans up the bass sound significantly.
mac48025 I agree with your assessment of the DIs being very refined and detailed. Told Eric that their accuracy and crescendo capabilities are so good they have reawakened my interest in classical music -- that shows off the dynamic qualities of the DIs to perfection. Recently ripped a number of the EMI/Warner Karajan recordings. Had not, in the past, listened to them much because of the orchestral sound ideal Karajan developed -- based on fundamental tones and very massive textures. On the DIs, these massive textures are presented so well that you feel some of the physical power the Berlin orchestra could generate, And it is so strong that the crescendos by themselves become an event worth enjoying. No other speaker I have heard has been capable of rendering this quality and it speaks directly to your assessment above. Agree, as well, that the speakers must be in a good acoustical environment in order to hear how well they can sing. Have used wall treatments, Herbie's gliders, careful positioning, and a small amount of APQualizr EQ (run through JRiver) to get the DIs perfect in my setup. The result is a soundstage so secure that performers can be pointed at with ease and who hold their positions rock steady in ensemble. This thread continues to provide helpful information for the prospective DI buyer -- congrats.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
