The Golden era of Japanese integrated amps, are we missing out?
Maybe it’s just me but..... I just threw together an el cheapo system with a Sansui A-2100 integrated at its heart and diminutive Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers.
And I still cannot get over just how good and right it sounds.... All for $240 total shipped!
So this got me thinking about the golden era of Japanese equipment and while tuners , tape decks and turntables appear to have large followings and a large knowledge and fan base, I do not get the same vibe on integrated amps?
Are there devotees of these amps out there? I very rarely hear anybody talking about them and so many can be picked up for peanuts, I mean $75 shipped in perfect working order and decent cosmetics( and built in mm phono to boot!). Are they likely to be the next " big thing" or?
Does anyone else who runs Japanese vintage receivers hear the same as I do?
That they really do not need to warm up to play at their best. I honestly cannot tell any difference on my Sanyo whether it's fresh power on or been on for hours.
This is very different to my BAT which sounds it's best after a good hour of power on.
I do not think I have ever owned any Yamaha besides an Rd500LC back in the days of my 2 wheeled madness, that thing was a hoot! Certainly nothing electronic or music related. Back in England, Yamaha tended to be a bit more expensive than majority other Jap stuff. So it was mostly JVC, Akai, Aiwa, Trio and Pioneer, probably the largest Japanese sellers back in the 70,s from my memory.
^^^ I also had a Yamaha CA 1000 back in the day. It had a switch where you could run it in class A. The only difference I noticed was it ran a lot hotter in Class A with no difference in SQ in either mode. It was a nice sounding unit for sure.
Its not Japanese, but these were some really good sounding receivers in the day ...
I don't know how they sounded after time passing, but I had the Yamaha CA-1000 and one of the Sony FET Integrated amps and both were excellent in their day. Used them to drive Large Advents Dahlquist DQ-10 and ESS AMT-1.
I have a secondary system, the heart of which, is a 1970s Sherwood 7100 receiver. The thing is a little killer and has a VERY good headphone amp to boot. The one I have was bought at Goodwill for $20 and works perfectly. The 7100 has a sound that is tube-like in nature. The 7100-A has more of a solid-state sound. Both receivers make for good music.
Sanyo JCX 2400K is now doing duty in my second system. A whole $50 for a unit that looks pristine and a work of art but more importantly has been serviced and recapped.
Well it was $95 shipping so $145 total.
I am very impressed all round, not an overly warm sound but nicely rounded through all frequencies and plenty powerful.
Averaging just about 22 on volume dial to wind the Monitor Audio 3i to more than respectable levels.
Really nice looking unit, goes very well with old Akai GXC 510D cassette deck in the same system.
in that case one of the TAN-4650 or TAN-5650 from Sony might be worth looking at. Sony sold many of those first gen integrates and while they do not have the survival rate of Yamaha, there are some still around. The Sony v-fets are probably more linear than Yamaha's and rather easier to match since Sony was not so coy about marking them by rank...well Yamaha and NEC did in a sense too, but that can be debatable.
Hello, I live in Mexico City and I have an 8B marantz, with its pre 7t, and its turntable slt and everything is like new! I bought it without knowing how it was heard, just because I liked the way it looked, when I get home and connected it, wow! it is one of my favorite toys, I have it connected to a 19 altec lansing and that is at a very good level, compared to current good equipment... I can't believe the quality they made in that time.
@kosst_amojan , true that! The jewels of these amplifiers are the best audio components of all times, as far as I am concerned...hence the associated high cost.
That said, I find it ludicrous even thinking of sacrificing one of my Yamaha B-1s or a Sony TAN-8550 or TA-N7 to attempt to come up with anything even close in terms sound and reliability....I am a super fan of Mr Pass designs, but still would not do something that crazy.
If you are looking to take a shot at some Pass V-fet designs, I suggest to take on something that leverages the Tokin devices. Those are still available if you look around a little.
@harrylavo, what Japanese tunes have you had the chance to listen to?
I like Yamaha and my dream tuner is the CT-7000. Sony also has a state of the art tuner, the ST-A7. If you have a chance, you should look them up.
Re: "I have concluded that most folks who are in the Japanese super-tuner camp are there because of the very high sensitivity of some of those old tuners. But I've never seen a reason not to ultimately judge them the same way we do other components ...... how "real" do they sound. "
Tuners do not really have a sound...well not the sound that reaches your ears. A tuner (a radio receiver) is part of an audio system (integrated or not), that passes the "translated" radio waves into music via a series of preamps / amps, hence we would judge the front end of an audio system when talking about sound.
I also did a "listening comparison" test in 1982 in Louisville, KY of tuners. I keep hearing about those fabulous Japanese tuners .... and did so at the time. So borrowed and assembled a bunch of US and Japanese tuners. As for sound quality, the (then new) Carver TX-11 and the Fisher FM90B tuners beat everything hands down, followed closely by the HK Citation 15. Most of the tuners sounded "flat" and/or "transistor_y". The Carver and the Fisher had top to bottom frequency balance and three-dimensional depth ..... they sounded like music, as I look for in any other component. The others didn't. The worst in that comparison .... the Crown (no bass), the HK8?0 and the Nikko (both sounded like "flat cardboard") The Pioneer and Kenwood were mediocre compared to the best.
I have concluded that most folks who are in the Japanese super-tuner camp are there because of the very high sensitivity of some of those old tuners. But I've never seen a reason not to ultimately judge them the same way we do other components ...... how "real" do they sound.
BTW, the most "3-D" FM sound I've ever heard was through a Dyna PAS3, Dynatuner, and ST-35 system, played through Thiel 3.5's. While I don't still have the Dyna gear, the Fisher and Carver's still play in my systems.
@ skywachr re: "Sansui "Pure Power DC" (Direct Current) design amps and receivers..."
I only own one Sansui...(the only v-fet amp Sansui ever made), so I am not necessarily acquainted with Sansui amplifier design but I am almost certain that "DC" is a reference to a Directly Coupled amplifier design...as in: no coupling capacitor is present in the signal path.
If we are speaking in terms of lo to mid-fi, then some of that gear might or might not be worth restoring..but lets not forget that the "golden era" of Hi-Fi is the 70's and 80's TOTL of equipment from that period is worth restoring and would give a ran for the money to some of the most esoteric TOTL gear of today. If anything, some of that knowledge of fine sound equipment building has been lost. Today's consumer prefers the Sonos, Bose and other mass production systems. Even in the remaining Audiophile community, the aluminum sculptures of today, seem to be sometimes more appreciated than the actual sound they are supposed to produce. The remaining manufacturers that are still focused on producing true hi-fi equipment are far few in between and their products are becoming increasingly expensive because of the continuous decrease of of quality audio grade components and the limited supply of talented engineers. There is simply very little room left for any economies of scale and the associated high cost of production follows.
Most of my vintage gear is comprised of separates from Sony, Yamaha and few others and mostly V-fet equipment. The type of sound a v-fet amplifier produces is sublime to my ears. I have many pieces of equipment from early and mid 70s that still run strong, but I restore all of my equipment anyways. Where I see areas of improvement of the original design, I am not holding back to from addressing them.
I only have three integrates. A Sony TAN-5650 (v-fet), Lo-D HA-500f (very rare v-fet) and a Pioneer A90 (A200 in Japan) The two v-fet integrates I would consider mid-fi, but I will still restore at some point because they already sound good even unrestored.
The Pioneer A90 is a different beast. @200w/channel, with a massive PSU, copper plated chassis and a few other tricks underneath the otherwise plain-jane silver face, it is a silent sleeper with a fantastic build quality, even by today standards.... This I might restore just for the fun of working on it.
Also map, owned it back in the day when having a stereo was just something to turn on and have fun listening to, not the critical object it appears to have become nowadays.
My own experience is majority of people does not even know how good what they have sound like because of lack of cleaning methods for vibrations, room treatment,and clean electrical grid and also clean source...Without this 4 problems solved, at least partially, I does not like myself what I already have... The reason is simple, what I own sound astoundingly good because it was vintage legendary good product to begin with, but they does not sound good enough to me at first...I make solutions for these 4 problems and after that I was amazed by my gear, and the Sansui in particular( caps all changed to begins with by a good tech)…
Your sound is what you get if the toom is treated, the vibrations under controls, the electrical grid of the house under watch and controlled, and the source clean... Nevermind your gear...
The store I worked at in 1978 sold Cerwin Vega and many other well known quality brands of the day. People loved the muddy bass of the Cerwin Vega. I hated them...my least favorite. So there you go.
Sorry for this post, which is a repeat, but my current rig retails for somewhere in the $20K to $30K range, but no one ever compliments me on it. But many years ago in southern California I had a second system with a Sansui receiver and Cerwin Vega speakers in an enclosed patio. Didn't matter, whoever heard it would say how great it was, me too. Go figure.
I liked the good vintage stuff just fine until I replaced that recently with a new $80 45w/ch amp with blue-tooth that is efficient, sounds it and is about the size of a pack of cigarettes.
Having heard liked and even sold many classic Sansuis in years past, I am pretty certain it sounds nothing like Sansui in its prime though.
If you need or want the fancy controls, lights, and multiple inputs for less than most anything new that might be considered "mid-fi" or better, then the classic vintage stuff used but fixed up as needed by a reliable tech is the way to go. Just keep in mind buying old electronic gear can be a risky proposition.
Actaman, “If it sounds great to you, then it’s s great. Don’t let any “expert” opinions convince you otherwise. You have achieved your own personal audio Nirvana. Enjoy it! If it fails, get it fixed, then enjoy it some more. “
If you want to say that Sansui power supply are cheap you are wrong.... If you say now that some power supply from other amp are bigger...This is a truism...
By the way the reputation of Sansui was linked to his quality transformer... I copy that from internet :
Background of Hashimoto Electric - Who is Hashimoto Electric? Why?
Hashimoto Electric Co., Ltd, started its business in 1958
as an OEM transformer manufacturer. From its beginning, Sansui Electric
was one of Hashimoto’s main customers.
In 1979, when Sansui decided to focus on assembling
finished products rather producing parts, Sansui decided to cut-off its entire
transformer business. It was the shocking news in the entire industry because
Sansui’s transformer business was very successful one. Further more, the
transformer business was Sansui’s foundation and its roots, and Sansui decided
to span off its entire business including patents, blue prints, personnel,
sales/marketing/distribution systems, and even the right to use Sansui brand
name.
The company who inherited Sansui’s entire transformer
business was Hashimoto Electric. Ever since, Hashimoto Electric produced
transformers for Sansui with Sansui logo on them. Some transformers used for
Sansui’s very high-end models might have come from other manufacturers with
limited special contracts; however, the most of Sansui transformers were
supplied by Hashimoto Electric.
When Sansui decided to reissue the famed AU-111 in 1999,
Hashimoto Electric was one to reproduce the power and output transformers with
the exact original specifications. Although current Sansui does not own any
production plants or Sansui does not manufacture any hi-fi units, Hashimoto
still produces replacement Sansui transformers for the maintenance market.
Around the year 2000, when Sansui decided to retreat from
the hi-fi business, Hashimoto decided to manufacture own high end tube
transformers with its own brand name. By utilizing Sansui’s years of tube
transformer technologies, Hashimoto further improved the technology and came out
with various brand new models; 12 power transformers, 7 choke coils, 15 output
transformers, and 6 various kinds.
Mr. Ishiguro who used to work for Sansui as a transformer
engineer and being transferred to Hashimoto still work for Hashimoto today.
About a year ago, Mr. Ishiguro proudly mentioned to me that Hashimoto has
inherited a special DNA for Sansui. This DNA was from the original Sansui; not
from Sansui whose business philosophy was altered by bean counters, nor from
Sansui whose business was taken over by foreign investors.
This DNA was directly created by the Sansui founder, Mr.
Kozo Kikuchi. Mr. Kikuchi’s business philosophy was, “Let our products speak
for themselves.” Sansui used be a tremendously ideology oriented company, and Mr.
Kikuchi chose to loose money before sending unsatisfactory products to the
market.
As if he were working for the old Sansui, Mr. Ishiguro
proudly mentioned to me that Hashimoto’s tube transformers are far advanced than
those from anybody else. Because Hashimoto’s transformers are designed to work
together and compliment each other, the best sound will be achieved by using all
Hashimoto transformers on a project. Without a firm brief and confidence,
nobody could make such a statement. Further more, I could foresee a common
denominator between these two gentlemen – enormous pride and no compromises on
their products.
As Sansui used to be, Hashimoto needs good marketing
strategies and marketing efforts, especially to market its own branded
products. It is common for technology oriented companies to come in short for
reaching out to the right customers. Therefore, this is the exact reason why we
are introducing Hashimoto Electric to the world via this site, and reaching out
to every hi-fi enthusiast who loves the sound of tube amplifiers.
You could be correct on the tough load front but so far I have only tried easy speakers to drive and have been very impressed with what I hear.
One aspect I have liked is the built in mm phono has given a nice warm sound. Sure a dedicated phono stage will dig out some more detail I am sure but for the cost of some of these integrated it is hard to complain.
Had a Pioneer sx1010 many years ago and loved it so when I had a chance to acquire an sx850 a while back for $200, I grabbed it and was liking it. Then about a year ago a local guy offered up a Philips fa950 integrated for $50, so I said what the heck and bought it just for kicks. To my surprise, it bettered the sx850 and not by just a little bit. A lot better sound in every way. Sold the Pioneer for $300 and haven't looked back. The Philips works perfectly and sounds great for SS. (My main system is tubes). I know we're talking integrateds and I'm comparing with a receiver, but I think sometimes the nostalgia from the "glory years" influences our ears somewhat..
I've heard (and read) some good things about the Luxman 500 series integrated amps. I just replaced a Marantz integrated for a proper preamp and amp. I'm going to keep the Marantz for my vintage system.
Well now you got me thinking guys. I might just take a chance on a d940 with the dpd circuit. I have only ever read good although tbh the looks do not really challenge the golden era of Japanese gear but hey if the price is right and the sound is right......
@roberjerman..a tech with 40 years exp had suggested it. Said it sounded better with the 10's than any power amp he'd heard. Found one in Seattle.....best $159 I have ever spent. I'm not an audiophile like most of the folks here, but my ears know what they like! Great thread here....
@sejodiren : I too bought a Proton (maybe the same model) cheap - $50! Very impressive and versatile - especially with the pre/power in/out jacks! And I almost passed it up!
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