Thiel Owners

tomic601

Excellent! building airplanes and/or cars is another fun Hobby.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

PM sent.   Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

Unsound - thanks for all the info. Interesting stuff. I have a lot to learn and appreciate the assistance.
Thanks again.
John H

Hi Everyone,  Been awhile since i looked in here mainly because I didn't have a system up and didn't want to think about it. I now have a great room that i have claimed. Finally a dedicated Home Theater 2 channel room. I have everything but amps and wanted to get your opinion on the few i have found, my main concern is the front three which will also be my two channel set up, so there are a couple 3 channel amps and a few 5 channel amps that might work. 

1- Mark Levinson 533H  3ch by 300 8ohm 600 4 ohm
2- Krell TRIO 300   3 ch  300- 8ohm  600 -4ohm
3- Parasound Halo A-51 five ch This plays first 7 to 10 watts in pure A  250 -8ohm  500- 4ohm
4- Dan D'Agostino Master Power 3+  300- 8ohm  600- 4ohms                                                                                                   5-  McIntosh MC303 Three Channel  300w in all ohms                                                                                                     
These are what i can find used the other speakers are easy to find the same brand, except the Dan Dagostino that i would need to get another brand amp

I'm running 3.7 for 2 ch/left&right  Center MCS1  L&R rear cs1.7  4 atmos power point 1.2  and center surround power plane 1.2  4 SS2 subs

Anyone have any preference out of these 5 amps??  Any other suggestions?  I am so pumped to finally put this together.

Thank you 

Dan
                                                                                                                     

I have heard other variants of the brands you have listed. The KRELL and ML are the 2 I liked.

I had done some amps swaps with the Thiel 3.7 in the last 6 months and this maybe useful for you or others.

The best amp was the Benchmark AHB2 in stereo and mono. However, it was also the worst because it had less power in the 2 Ohm than the others I tested. So I loved the sound of it the most but it lacked that low grunt or power that the others possessed.

The next 2 were equally good
- KRELL K-300i integrated, very smooth and killer bass
- CODA CSib integrated, did everything well 

D-Sonic M3A 800s Class D ($1500)
- surprisingly good. Maybe not as refined on top but it showed me that tons of power are appreciated by the Thiel CS3.7

- I bought my final amp for the Thiel CS3.7 a few days ago. It is the CODA #8. I will get delivery in 4 weeks. I plan to rotate the CODA #8 with the Benchmark AHB2 (likely in stereo mode) with the CODA 07x preamp and the Benchmark HPA4 preamp. A very easy task and something I was already doing with the D-Sonic and a single AHB2. The CODA #8 replaces the D-Sonic. The CODA #8 is rated anywhere from 600 watts to 1200 watts at 2 Ohm depending on the version one buys (1, 2, or 3).

dancastagna

An incredible system in the making!

Those amp(s) are heavy hitters to be sure. You have a tough decision my Audiophile friend.  All Amp(s) are special in their own way. At this level of price-performance, take time to visit dealers/retailers to audition.

Of the considerations listed, I have only auditioned Mark Levinson and D'Agostino models.  Each were matched w/ corresponding pre-amps (same brand). Very musical and powerful. Endless current for driving a Thiel loudspeaker.

Over on Audio Asylum, John Ellison, drives his CS 3.7 with Parasound gear exclusively. Read up on his postings if interested.

I cannot comment on the Krell Trio 300. It certainly has the specs to drive a pair of CS 3.7 loudspeakers.  Keep me posted on your findings.

Happy Listening!

Dan - that is quite a system you’ve got going. I have no direct experience with your prospective amp models, but note that they all look great for current delivery and the brands pass the sniff test. But you knew that. Good work.
I have two general thoughts: power supply and the 1.7. I’ll address system power later.

I have observed that the CS1.7 may not be as advertised. Jim had his CS 1.7 nearly ready to go when he died, which then simmered behind the 2.7 in the last few years of Original Thiel outsourced product development. New Thiel changed the 1.7 design significantly, replacing Jim’s first order crossover with "high order" (probably 4th), and introducing a 2db/decade slope down from bass to treble - a standard PSB-type crossover. I also read that the tweeter sports a "new voice coil and re-designed motor". That sounds suspiciously like a normal overhung tweeter, again standard industry fare available from suppliers, whereas Thiel’s underhung drivers were made in-house. The underhung motor exhibits an order of magnitude less onset transient distortion and a completely symmetrical push-pull linearity - albeit at the expense of greater manufacturing cost, lower efficiency requiring a larger magnet, and greater hazard of burn-out due to voice coil geometry. I don’t know whether the woofer also opted for a "normal" motor rather than Jim’s design specialties. I have queried Rob for further insight. In the past he said to me of the 1.7 "It’s not Jim’s work".
The 1.7 caused a parting of ways for the first team of New Thiel which included Steve DeFuria, a long-time industry insider who had collaborated with Thiel over its entire life-span. Steve objected to New Thiel calling the 1.7 a "Coherent Source", the application of a house curve, and allowing reviewers to represent it as a first order, phase coherent transducer. Notice that Stereophile among others never reviewed the 1.7 - I’ve been told that they didn’t want to play New Thiel’s game. I am not disparaging the performance of the 1.7. I am told that by conventional standards applied to normal speakers that they have been called "more refined than previous Thiels".
Do any of you here in Thiel-land know how the CS1.7’s step response looks?

To correct the record: Rob says the 1.6 and 1.7 use the same moving system in the tweeter and the only difference is that the 1.7 has an additional bucking magnet.

tomthiel

Thank You for the history lesson on CS 1.6 vs. CS 1.7 models.

Happy Listening!

$500 - I want them but can't justify it.  

Thiel SCS4T tower speakers For Sale - US Audio Mart

^Don't fret, not one of Thiel's better models. 

Hi guys, I apologise for being late to the party. I was aware only when this thread popped up as a result of a google search, and this would be my first post in the forum. I have read a few pages in this thread and I am amazed at some of the system configurations of fellow owners have with their Thiel speakers.


To share more about my system, I have the CS2.7 driven by Benchmark AHB2 mono, Benchmark LA4 preamp, T+A DAC 8 DSD, and a Windows PC running ROON Server (upsampling all of my music playbacks to DSD512). I've got this pair well loved CS2.7 finished in ebony, through a close friend of mine, and I have it for almost a year now.


James
From Singapore

Dan - following up on the power part of your amp query. It has always fascinated me that Thiel speakers seem to bring out the worst in many amps. This weekend I interacted with a very knowledgeable long-term Thiel user who stated he had amps that worked with every other speaker, except his Thiel CS2.4s. That rings a bell - it echoes the experience of thousands of users, reviewers, fans and detractors. Why is that? Thiel impedance is low, but it is also highly resistive, which amps love. There are speakers with far more brutal load characteristics, which don’t have Thiel's ’hard to drive’ reputation. Go figure.

I have been figuring for decades and have an idea that makes sense to me. Back to some context. I was the set-up guy for many shows. Most of that electricity sucked, and sometimes we even changed rooms to be away from elevators, etc. with very dirty power. Pin that. In the late 80s Thiel built a dedicated music room of some renown with lots of care to proportions, materials, treatment, etc. It had fluorescent lights, air-conditioning and office computers all on the same service, since its footprint was in a 40’ wide industrial space that all shared a single service. Even though we isolated the hi-fi gear on one leg, there were still many reactivities on the line. Our electrical engineer said that the problem was intractable - just live with it. Long story ensues. The solution came via borrowing hi-fi circuits from the next bay, which was used almost exclusively for finished goods storage. That power was cleaner and we hung a sub panel with short runs to the hi-fi system. The system performance was improved more than normal people would imagine.

I am presently studying the mechanisms that might cause such mischief. My working hypothesis is that various design(er)s manage the various line distortions more or less effectively than others. Those design(er)s who understand the effects of dirty power can minimize the problems within their chassis. It seems a major component of the problem includes the differences between the high (+) leg and the neutral leg at or near ground potential; but it rarely actually is at zero due to losses and interactions in the feed wires.

I have always been puzzled by how some / most equipment sounds so much better when run from 240 volts rather than 120. One explanation is that 240 volt is a real balanced feed with each leg running 180° out of polarity and the ground centered between them. Circuits see symmetrical power. Some snooping has led me to investigate recording studio power. High end venues often mix, master, etc. on the graveyard shift. Audibly better recordings result. As I rebuild my studio in a new location, I intend to run a sub-panel with both 240 volt and 120 volt outlets. Performance can be easily compared by swapping the IEC cord for 120 or 240 volt feeds. Can’t wait to learn.
A seemingly optimal 120 volt solution is to use balanced power as is used in many labs and studios. An isolation transformer is tapped for 60 volts plus and minus rather than the usual 120+ and zero. I like the concept, have heard good reports, and would like to have that solution in my bailiwick - but it seems quite expensive.
One bottom line from these musings is that buying an amp that can be tapped for 240 balanced power input might give you a leg up in bypassing a lot of power problems and getting good sound more reliably. These explorations feel right to me; they address many unsolved mysteries about why or how Thiel can sound bad when other speakers sound good.

The other half of this equation is my personal belief that Phase Coherent transducers invite the audio cortex to scrutinize sound as though it is real, rather than an electronic facsimile. Our felt judgement is far more acute for ’real’ sounds than manufactured ones. My first exposure to this phenomenon was in developing the 03 in 1978 - we wrestled with this phenomenon for a year and a half and learned that we had to "fix" problems for coherent presentation that weren’t even on the radar when a higher order crossover was substituted. I know I’ve addressed this idea before, but I’m repeating for those new to the forum or to raise some issues that might connect some dots for folks beyond myself.

ydjames

Welcome! Good to see our International Thiel owners. The CS 2.7 is a very fine loudspeaker. Reading these pages, you will find, many Benchmark fans and owners as well. T+A makes fine electronics, especially, DAC8 DSD.  I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.  How is the weather in Singapore this time of year?

Happy Listening!

@jafant 

The weather in Singapore during this "season" is crazily warm and humid. We are looking at between 31 and 33 degrees Celcius. The good news is that the weather here is predictable most of the time. While the rest of the time, rain duration is unpredictable. It can be as short as 15 minutes, but it can also go on for hours and hours.

When I have some time to myself, I'll retreat back to my room listening to music. I listen to quite a wide range of genres. Lately, I have been indulging with this particular album called "Plays Gershwin", by The Bassface Swing Trio. Recommended by some friends, I find the recording to be highly transparent, dynamic, and detailed. Soon, it will become my go-to reference album.

However lately, I am beginning to hear more "distortions" from a tweeter when a piano is being played in the music. I am curious if it is a recording distortion or a "breaking up" mode of the tweeter. Sometimes, it can get as bad as cutting through the ambience of the music. On the other hand, I've been thinking if I should get a new driver to replace it. Could you guys help enlighten me?

I believe there is a post earlier in the thread about distortion.  I've had it from time to time but not lately.

Might try looking at page 187 and a bit before and a bit after.

James - about your perceived distortion. I'm guessing that a recording that is good enough to consider as a reference does not have the type of distortion you are reporting. If it emanates from one channel, swap channels. If it swaps, it's somewhere upstream. Of course I'm guessing, but it sounds like a loose tweeter voice coil. Do you know Rob at Coherent Service? He can help troubleshoot as well as rebuild the driver. 

ydjames

Thank You for the follow up. We have similar weather this time of year.
I have read about The Bassface Swing Trio. I will check out "Plays Gershwin".
Regarding the Tweeter distortion, if you are experiencing the same aural findings on piano recordings, it could be a loose voice coil. I agree with Tom's thoughts.  Consult Rob Gillum at Coherent Service (CSS) in Lexington Kentucky, U.S.A. for a possible re-build of tweeter.
Keep me posted on this situation.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Thank You for chiming in to address James' tweeter query.
As we kick off Summer, in a few days, I hope that you are well in your neck of the woods.

Happy Listening!

All - 

There's a pair of 2 2s not far from me - are they worth taking a chance on?  Just looking to play/experiment.  (I know they're OLD!)  Amp is a pair of Exposure 3010S2 monoblocks.  

Thanks in advance!

I have a pair of 2 2s, they were the first Thiels I owned.  I got them for a living room system about 10 years ago.  I consider them the best audio bargain of my life.  They aren't for AC/DC fans but at moderate volumes they're just so enjoyable.  They're fantastic for acoustic jazz or classical, any small scale unamplified music.  They're clear, relaxing, just slightly warm, I  could go on and on.  They don't need a ton of power.  They were a revelation to me.  Over time I had to accept that I preferred them to my far more expensive B&W 802s.  I'm sure not as good on paper but if you just want to listen it wasn't even that close.  

naimfan

Good to see you here again. Any of these older Thiel speakers are great for experimenting and play.  Parts are still readily available as well.
In fact, a pair is/was available in my area.

Happy Listening!

jon_5912

Thank You for chiming in to assist naimfan's query. Between B&W and Thiel a music lover cannot go wrong.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

naimfan - Some thoughts on the CS2.2 (where I’ve reinserted the rightful decimal point). The model 2 was a smaller-scale version of the original 3-way model 3 - less expensive for smaller rooms and moods. The model two often benefited from trickle-down tech. The 2.2 got the UltraTweeter developed for our flagship CS5 in the late 80s. Pretty good tweeter. It also got some driver motor technology including custom motor machining and copper coil and pole-piece shunts, new technology at any price at that time. The CS2.2 was Thiel’s first passive radiator which went on into all future floorstanders. On the manufacturing front, the CS2.2 followed the CS5 for which we got our feet wet with all CNC machining and serious Finite Element Analysis of the drivers. It got our first open lattice interior cabinet bracing and first acoustically frameless grille. It’s a very sophisticated product, especially considering its modest $2K class. (In fact many dealers and reviewers told us it would make more market sense at twice its price.)
As often mentioned: "they’re not for rockers", and so forth, due to bass output limitations. I have an update for that. The tweeter handles the load, the midrange does quite well, its low end being crossed over an octave higher than the model 3. By the way, Rob has a good drop-in replacement for the midrange. The woofer is only 8", but it’s built to boogie. The main limit is a hard splat of the passive radiator on bass transients. At least that’s what early reviews (John Atkinson in Stereophile) said and we all acquiesced. I never settled with that idea. I had developed that passive radiator which has only a foam plate and two compliant surrounds that glue directly to the front and back of a lip in the baffle. In other words there is nothing for anything to splat against. Hmmm.As was our practice, Jim was headlong into developing the CS3.6 and didn’t look back at the 2’s bass problem.
No secret that I’ve been working on updating these classic Thiel speakers for the past few years. My explorations led (via a long spiral route) to outboarding the crossovers while eliminating all magnetic elements (such as mounting screws), leaving only the components themselves on a masonite board; and paying closer attention to stray fields, wire routing and dressing and so forth. Guess what? No splat. I can’t overload them short of cringing. I can’t say I know exactly what was causing the problem except something in the crossover feeding the woofer and possibly midrange. I know the problem was there in spades and now it is reliably gone. And by the way, that big, wooly quality of the bass. Gone too. The CS2.2 can’t move as much air as the CS3 models, but it’s no slouch.
So, if you have a chance to get a pair and if you’re interested in making them substantially better in the future, there has been lots of work done toward that end. It’s hard to imagine you being disappointed.

@tomthiel and @jafant  and @jon_5912 :

Thanks all!  I emailed and made what I hope is a reasonable offer - $450 (they're listed for $600).  

Will post back if able to complete purchase.

Tom,

Could the splatt heard be caused from turbulence inside the cabinet generated from crossover placement or the mounted components. The air flow would be disrupted by the mounting arrangement of the components on the board. The turbulence would change with an increase in excursion. Internally I have much sonic success with hard coupling the board to the speaker bottom and able to tune the board externally with a brass hex head assembly..1/8 of a turn can make some good magic.  When the board is mounted outside there wouldnt be the turbulence but there is always a benefit in mechanically grounding the board to the higher mass of the floor. Resonant energy will go that way if given the right material and geometry. Tom

Tom - your hypothesis is of interest. One observation is that all Thiel speakers mount their XOs to the bottom or back near the bottom with lots of fiberglass between the XO and the drivers / moving air. Plus the sound is hard, like a driver bottoming. When I put the redeveloped XO inside the cabinet, mounted on nylon studs and rubber feet, the problem had vanished. My best guess is some sort of electromagnetic saturation and/or possibly the bottom end of the midrange bottoming out. (But I didn't change the midrange driver, only some specifics of the crossovers.)
As I've mentioned before, getting the XO out of the cabinet does worlds of good. My in-cabinet solution is different from yours - I am suspending each of the 3 small crossover boards in free air, rather than clamping it the the wall where it must absorb the cabinet wall vibration.

With my in cabinet solution the resonance that will always accumulate on a chassis or components suspended or not will be dissipated with specific coupling methods and geometric shapes. For my method to work most effectively the same mechanical grounding scheme must be applied to the outside bottom of the cabinet to the higher mass of the floor. Suspended devices in free air especially under the bombardment inside a cabinet are presented with no path to dissipate resonance so those components will pass that interference on to the rest of the circuit.

Your method does reduce the material cabinet resonance from compounding the air impact resonance of your suspended parts. The free air method still holds onto some of the resonance which then becomes part of the system. Tom

Input accepted. What I know for now is that this rubber-damped / no cabinet contact method performs considerably better than stock Thiel. And that putting a crossover inside a cabinet is an inherently compromised idea. Further improvements always await.

So Tom the Thiel crossover board was screwed right to the cabinet floor? We had a Cs5 in the shop at Ovation because of a meltdown and saw the huge board out never took notice of how it was mounted..now over 20 years ago.
Tom

The CS5(&I) was the exception. It was too big for that. That huge xo board slid into a pair of grooves near the back of the cabinet, abutting a rubber bumper at the top. The cabinet base with a rubber bumper was screwed up against the bottom of the board. I think the long edges were just a light friction fit. Long ago indeed. 1988 introduction = 33 years ago.

And that crossover was like a small surfboard covered with components ..very complex it must have been. The other dealer in town
sold these and a pair of Adcom mono blocs..really when he should have had a Krell..To many wine tastings with the ladies I heard was the catalyst for the burn out. Tom

Probably more than a third of those components were time correction for each the upper and lower midrange drivers. Bucket brigade analog time delay to fine-tune the arrival time. Those ubiquitous yellow 1uF styrene film x tin foil caps were developed for the CS5 and persisted to the end in various forms.

tomthiel

Thank You for the R&D notes for the CS 2.2 loudspeaker.
In my opinion (IMO), the Passive Radiator is very special.

Happy Listening!

naimfan

My pleasure to assist. Keep me posted on this situation.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

very cool XO talk. I like it.  Keep up the excellent research and development (R&D).

Happy Listening!

theaudiotweak

Very cool XO talk from your perspective as well. Insightful.

Happy Listening!

Hi guys, i'm happy to announce that i received all my gear to build my reference system.I'm just waiting for the audio stand to arrive before i start unboxing.

thieliste

Excellent! Once you un-box and rack the gear, post pictures, in Virtual Systems for the Panel.

Happy Listening!

All - 

Should be picking up the 2.2s today.  Assuming I can get them in the door by myself, I'll post impressions (assuming I have a set of single-wire speaker cables!).  

naimfan

Good to read the offer was accepted on 2.2 speakers.
Keep me posted as you massage the speakers into your room/system.

Happy Listening!

Every time I throw the old Thiel 02s in to my system it tells me that’s the sound I’ve been chasing. Decade after decade.


Something about the palpability and tonality of the sound that grabs me every time. For some reason they seem to tell me more about what something is made of - a sort of solidity so chimes sound "solid," reed instruments have a solid resonating body, the metal of a trumpet vs a string instrument etc. I just don’t know why.

I wonder if part of what I like in the 02 has anything to do with it’s higher sensitivity - 90 dB/watt-meter. Tomthiel, do you happen to know anything about the impedance on the 02? Is it an easy to drive speaker impedance-wise? (Sure seems so just by ear, whenever I hook up any tube amp to those speakers).

I’d love a bigger, more refined version of that speaker.


I’m still fiddling with the idea of testing out the Devore O/96 speakers in my room, which have some of the 02 qualities, but bigger and more refined.


The aren’t as refined as the Thiels overall though, in a "modern loudspeaker" type of way. They don’t fully disappear as sound sources, do the wall to wall soundstaging etc.

Summer Solstice

All

anyone having trouble accessing this thread via FireFox browser?
If so, send a PM to me and I will ask Admin to re-set your account.

Happy Listening!

I run my Thiel CS 6 with Wadia A 340 Amps ( 500 into 4) and use the Wadai 321 Dac. I also run an ARC LS 2 MKII Pre Amp with a Cambridge CXC Transport MK II  . I run Silnote Cables with MIT Speaker Cables. I have found that the more power you have the better the sound. Thiels  are not forgiving with equipment so get the best you can get. Get good recordings to! 

rsa

Good to see you here again. Thank you for the system update.
Very nice gear around the CS6 loudspeaker.
Yes! Cabling is key and often the over-looked component.

Happy Listening!