Thiel Owners
coop_301 & unsound The fun part about this forum is getting me and others to thinking about the subjects being discussed . Preamp or no preamp , unsound's technical explanation got me thinking again , do I need an active preamp ? Asiaaudiosoc brought up a great point about the volume control , in my opinion it's the most important componet between your input devices and your amp . I heard the difference between a stock and high grade Alps , it wasn't subtle .
|
@dsper, A room of that size could accommodate full range sound, the only thing that might be holding back that possibility is the c-j amp. Now, I like and have used c-j (though ss) in the past, and I don't mean to harp on this, but I think the resale on c-j stuff is quite good. You might be able to get a visually less imposing speaker than the CS5i's that could offer deeper frequency response and still meet your other criteria, if you would consider other amplification that met the loudspeakers needs rather than getting speakers that met the amps limitations. |
@coop_301 , It appears that for a fairly reasonable charge you could have the balanced output voltage customized: Okto dac8 Stereo D/A processor | Stereophile.com Okto dac8 stereo DAC Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum Recommended Components Fall 2021 Edition Digital Processors | Stereophile.com |
@unsound ...if you would consider other amplification... You make a very valid point. The other part of this for me is the desire to try a tube amp setup. For example the CS.5 is a 4 ohm speaker that is supposed to be able to run on 30 wpc per the Stereophile review link that Tom Thiel shared. The CJ LP66S is rated at 60 wpc at a 4 ohms. Along with jazzman7's postive comment, maybe I should try a pair. Not a real expensive experiment at current used prices for the .5's. I appreciate the advice. Thanks!
|
@dsper, Keep in mind that the Thiel specs at 87dB/2.8V/1M which is confusingly not the same as 1 Watt. Considering the 4 Ohm nominal impedance, it's more like <84dB sensitivity. Jim Thiel told me that his power recommendations were based upon the assumption that quality ss amp that could appropriately double down be used and that for example that if one using a Thiel speaker with a 4 Ohm rating with a tube amp one should double the power of those recommendations. Furthermore, the c-j specs seem quite generous: lp66s2man.pdf (conradjohnson.com) with a rather high +/- of 1.5 THD and a somewhat limited bandwidth of 30Hz-15Khz. Considering the limited bass output of the CS .5's and that they can seem a bit tippy without any treble roll off of their own, and the fact that tubes overload more gracefully. it would seem as though it should all work out. But in a room of that size you might be at the limits. Of course, due to the small size of the CS .5's, they are not at all too cumbersome, and it wouldn't be too difficult to move on from them. Sure, I guess it's worth a try. |
@dsper From 1996 to 2004 I had my .CS 5s hooked up to an ADS A2 integrated (80 watts per side into 8 ohms) and it was decent, but then in 2004 stepped it up to Bryston rig - 3BST with BP20 preamp, and it made for a big step up in SQ. Very same room and speaker location as displayed on my virtual systems page. Not a small room, but plenty of sound. And if more bass is desired, one could always work in a subwoofer. |
To answer a direct question to me my Thiel are CS1.2, one speaker sounds great, the other one sounds blown, when I removed the grill found the tweeter was crushed, so have to replace both, not currently in a hurry for that. To follow along with OP thread, and ideas, I went first with ProJect streambox S2, quickly returned it, ordered a ProJect Streambox Ultra, currently using it with a USB hard drive directly connected to the Ultra (which is really a raspberry pi running volumio), the audio is, so to speak crystal clear, since it is early in the morning I have not played audio too loud, don't wish to disturb neighbors, but I now have the audio quality I was seeking for a relatively low cost, well, compared to some. |
A bit of an update on the ProJect Streambox S2 Ultra... I spent a good part of my morning attempting to disable the bluetooth connection as it was not secured. I eventually gave up and reflashed the Streambox with dietpi, I wouldn't recommend this task if you are not comfortable with Linux, but there's plenty of help available in various forums. Now my custom box is running dietpi and my music collection is accessed with emby, a very slick interface. Audio quality is superb, temps of the box are lower. Most of my music files are flac's with some dsd thrown in as well, all sound great. Now to rip my remaining cd's. |
oldtechguy
Thank You for the follow up to my query. I want to say that there is another CS 1.2 fan/owner on the Panel. At your leisure, read through this thread from the beginning. There is a plethora of information available to everyone. It appears that you are a "tech guy" Any special aspect or discipline in Audio? I look forward in reading more about your Musical taste and system.
Happy Listening! |
Not really, in a past life I was a Unix/Linux sys admin, though I was also a network tech, hench the oldtechguy. I did go through this lengthy thread, got rather interesting in a few places. My music taste is really eclectic, currently Nathaniel Rateliff & the Night Sweats are playing, the previous album was by The McDades. I will listen to just about anything musical. |
I have an Audio Research Ref75SE driving my pair of CS.5’s that I bought from Bay Area Audio back in the day. The authority of that amp mates well with the baby Thiels in an almost magical way. No low end bass of course but the coherence and musicality above 40 Hz or so is amazing. In my larger room it works satisfyingly well for everything but the really big orchestral works. My taste is jazz and alternative so this suits me fine. The Ref75 has a lot of power and slam. I don’t know if you really need that for the baby Thiels but it’s quite a bit better than the 50 wpc AR integrated I was previously using. |
I was think thinking the same thing as this is not intended to be a full range, serious listening system.
Your experience would indicate that 60 wpc of my CJ amp might be enough. Thanks for the discussion!
|
Just to let everyone know that after a 2 month wait, took delivery of my new Coda CSiB integrated amp today. So far so good. My CS 2.4s seem very happy with it. And more importantly, the Mrs is happy with it. Also happy to report that I ordered it just in time to avoid a sizable price increase. My local dealer, Mike Kay of Audio Archon told me that prices on the Coda line have gone up 15% across the board. Will report more after this new baby has had more of a chance to break in. |
Hi guys, 10 days ago we did a shootout in my rig between my Gryphon Diablo 300 and Audionet Pre G3 + amp monos driving my 3.7s. At the end of the day the Audionet combo was not able to beat my beloved Diablo 300 integrated. I still prefered my Diablo 300 because it has more meat on the bone than the Audionet combo and with my 3.7s it is more engaging. But the game is not over guys, guess what the Audionet dealer will soon come back to my place with this time around the Audionet Humboldt. This is going to be a lot of fun, i would suspect my Diablo 300 will be smoked by the Humboldt but who knows let's wait and see. Will keep you guys posted. I will also be demoing cables in my systems very soon to find out if another cable brand can smoke my Gryphon cabling. |
Good stuff and always fun to try out new gear. Some of us cringe at the word "smoked" when it comes to amps. 😊 Thinking back to the 70s and 80s it was not so uncommon for some amps to literally go up in smoke. In fact, my Dad’s 1968 Philco Color TV caught fire once. It was maybe a year old when it happened. Managed to contain the damage and get it repaired. Needless to say, always some tension turning it on after that.
|
Just a heads up to members about shipping. Shipping has always been a challenge on expensive audio gear. As of late it has gotten far worse. My business ships a good amount of stuff and two expensive splitters for MB GTR were simply lost with no trace of there whereabouts. I've encountered our material coming in damaged also. For this reason I am only dealing with local buyers for CS 2.7 I've decided to sell. This isn't me using the forum to post a for sale item. Instead I'm simply saying for a speaker that cannot be replaced I refuse to ship it and other members may also consider doing the same. |
duramax747
Thank You for the follow up and collection information. Agreed, Mr. Rob Gillum had/has a pair of CS 2.7 in Piano White at CSS. I do not know if he still owns this specific pair? We really should meet sometime as I would like to hear a comparison between the CS 2.4 w/ SE upgrade(s) vs. CS 2.4SE models. Overall, a very cool Collection of Thiel Loudspeakers.
Happy Listening! |
ALL
Happy Listening! |
Just stumbled upon an old Stereophile review of the 2.2s. https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/492thiel/index.html A quote:
"What I admire most about these speakers is the fact that the product is so professionally done. The cabinetry is impeccable. I get the feeling that these speakers are the result of many months, perhaps years, of careful research, engineering, and listening—not something that was rushed to market half-finished, with revisions to follow. "
It must be nice when reviewers and customers note the effort you folks put in to these products. I remember when I had the CS6 at my place in amberwood (as I recall) it was just so...impeccable...in it's finish, design and workmanship. It adds so much pride of ownership and satisfaction.
|
I know we’ve explored some of this territory before. But I hope it’s worth repeating, especially for those who may not have read all of our 220 pages. Ever wonder what Amberwood is anyhow? And its brother Morado? As time went by, Thiel wanted a standard-priced offering that was unique and upscale, and fit a broad range of living environments. From the beginning we offered what I considered the premium woods of the world: Black Walnut, White Oak, Teak and Brazilian Rosewood (for very little upcharge) because we could, because we made our own veneer faces and laminated in-house. So we could buy flitches of raw veneer and use it as needed. That may seem ordinary, but it’s really quite far from it. Most speaker manufacturers don’t even make their own cabinets. And the cabinet maker doesn’t lay up their own veneers, but rather buys veneered panels ready to machine. By 1990 we were making 5 models in 5 standard finishes plus practically unlimited custom options. Can you say complicated? A growth strategy was to reduce variety by creating a target finish that would allow a large percentage of sales from stock rather than made to order. Our demand was fairly evenly spread among the existing finishes, so I went shopping for something new. Landing on a domestic species would have been nice, since we had two world-class veneer mills within 80 miles of us. But, that didn’t materialize. What did materialize was a walk-about to South America with Jungle-Jim Martin a second-generation woodman who ran Marwood, a leading specialty veneer importer down the road in Louisville, and president of "The Hardwood Forestry Fund", a leading industry conservation group. We planned our first joint trip in 1989 specifically to identify a good supply channel for a magnificent wood from responsible forestry practice, that we could afford. There’s no way to ascertain responsibility/sustainability without first-hand inspection of the suppliers on their own turf. Over two weeks, we visited 14 mills in 11 cities (locations) throughout Brazil and Bolivia. We knew some candidate species from my 15 years of making custom furniture, musical instruments and loudspeakers. But the scouting process was real and open-ended and one that paid dividends far into the future. It’s pretty well known that the world has a resource depletion problem. By 1990 the outrage had taken two tracks. The Europeans claimed to boycott "bad actors" where the Orientals tried to verify "good actors". The Americans tended to pretend that everything was fine. Most of the real practices bore little resemblance to claims or published information, even "officially" documented and audited claims. Round wood at the source is little different from other extractive resources like oil, coal or diamonds - it’s quite dirty, getting progressively cleaned up on its way to the consumer. But I could go to the source with Jungle Jim and shine a light on those layers of obfuscation. We took a mutual friend, a well-traveled, well spoken woman who could ask pointed questions in non-confrontational ways that were unavailable to us as guys in a very machist milieu. Many of these mills were regular suppliers to Marwood with reputations for best practices. But under scrutiny, all the Brazilian sources fell apart regarding sustainable and ethical practices. Corruption reigns. The wood of choice firmed up as Pau Ferro, most often marketed as Santos Rosewood. It’s neither a true Rosewood nor from Santos, a port in southern Brazil a few thousands of miles from where it grows in Bolivia. That’s its point of export to the western markets. Out travels led us to Bolivia where it grows. Santa Cruz is in the uplands between the Amazon Basin and the Andes. The area produces very good timber, which was comparatively quite responsibly harvested, primarily by Japanese mills exporting a range of raw veneer and lumber with semi and completely finished pieces and parts back to Japan. The picture grew much darker eastward into the backlands toward Brazil. Poachers, primarily German nationals, routinely carried out stealth logging raids, complete with pneumatic chainsaws, a convoy with a helicopter and machine guns. As a naive gringo, I would not have believed what I saw with my own eyes. With Jim Martin’s Forestry Fund clout we were able to arrange a project of a life-time, working with the University of Santa Cruz and the Bolivian Forestry Department to create a long term sustainable yield program with the Chiquitano Native Peoples. The kingpin is that their tribal lands were secure. Of course they had titular property rights - that the poachers could ignore. But they could’t ignore large-expanse swamps with serious snakes, arachnids and reptiles, along with unimaginably agile canoeists armed with curare darts. A seriously secure site into the foreseeable future. We need to jump over lots of wonderful details to say that we established a well managed, continuous-yield program that netted the Chiquitano natives a lion’s share of income, along with the best-of-class SUTO veneer mill for a long-term contract supplying Marwood, with Thiel consuming enough veneer to stabilize the whole program, which continued until Thiel was sold at the end of 2012. The wood of interest goes by many names. Pau Ferro is the catch-all meaning Iron Wood, which applies to many tropical woods of similar type. Santos Rosewood is a lie, even though all the Danish Rosewood furniture since the 1960s has been made of this wood. It is in the same family as the Dalbergia genus rosewoods, but I felt it disingenuous to call it such. Complicating matters, there are two species, lowland and upland, that are all marketed together. So we coined two names. For the lowland species, I applied the local name of Morado which means ’purple’ in the local tongue. The upland species is lighter in color as well as less color-fast and bleaches toward blond. We named it Amberwood. Because we were dealing directly with a responsible source and exporting via ship all the way to the Port of Louisville, 80 miles from Lexington, we kept the cost within reach and competitive with our local species. We went on to buy over a million square feet through that ongoing program. The offering was a hands-down success and our peers couldn’t believe that we could offer it at standard pricing. As with many things in life, there’s more than meets the eye; it’s more than a pretty wood. I’ve only told the high points here. There’s a whole lot to love about Amberwood / Morado. I’m glad when people share that love.
|
@tomthiel,
Your chronicles of Thiel Audio are captivating. We would love a book about Thiel Audio with all the details filled in. I keep my CS3.6s covered when not in use to preserve the beautiful amberwood finish! Jon |
Coda CSiB integrated amp has been in my system for two weeks now, and I couldn't be happier; delivering the best sound I've ever heard from my CS 2.4s. A significant step up from my venerable Bryston 3Bst / BP20 combo. Two word description of the sound - melifluous and holographic. Silky smooth with a huge soundstage, wide and deep, extending well beyond the speakers. The amp is very quiet. Presentation is relaxed, but with an abundance of detail and nuance. If anyone is interested, I've posted updated pictures and info in the virtual systems area.
|
| Post removed |
These sketches I’ve written in this forum over these past years serve as remembrances and motivations to resurrect and stitch these events together in my memory. I believe a memoir would be valid, not just for fans of Thiel loudspeakers, but as a marker in time, of a time when some folks in their twenties in Kentucky with only their vision, will and guts, could actually pull it off, becoming a player (albeit small) on the world stage for nearly 40 years. I’ve given you guys some glimpses and contexts, and as can so often be said: there is always more. When I found this forum in 2018, it gave me a welcome platform to speak to some ideas and issues meaningful to me. I have appreciated and enjoyed it very much. It also allowed me to formulate and develop the idea of Thiel Renaissance, which still lives. I am still resurrecting stories and developing product improvement ideas . . . but, we can’t always get what we want. The loss of my workspace has been debilitating and is still consuming much of my time and energy. So progress on any and all fronts is very slow. On the bright side, the sale of my tonewood business has allowed all my current projects to be music-centric - and that feels like coming home. |
New (to me) CS 3.6 speakers in the house tonight. They sound fantastic. I haven't really done any playing around with positioning yet. They are like a much grander version of the 2.3 I currently have without the brightness. What has really surprised me is the bass. So much texture and tonal nuances. |
@big_greg Congrats !,,,,, A pair of the 02 is next ;-) |
@tomthiel I certainly appreciate your efforts here and in service of Thiel over the many years. Maybe you remember Jim’s trip with Dick Hardesty and Richard Vandersteen to Catalina Island ? RV remembers that trip w fondness. Best to you. I hope you regain a workspace soon. Jim |
tomic - that trip was not in my time. I have read Dick's article(s) that likely resulted from such a trip. I did know about Dick's visit to the Thiel factory. I knew Dick from Havens and Hardesty when they were one of our best and favorite dealers. They were an enormously successful Vandy dealer and RV didn't allow his dealers to take on Thiel - and Dick said 'get over it'. DH and RV were best of friends and we loved DH too. His explanations were so lucid and clear! The good, they die young. |
Tom - I believe it was the only place that happened. i worked at Audio Connection a Thiel dealer and then at Progressive Audio a Vandy dealer, both in Ohio. I know Curtis after his split w Dick and move to Tacoma. I agree, Dick was both a gifted listener and erudite explainer of the complex. His writings ( Perfectionist Journal ) are archived and hosted on the Vandy site. Yes, unfortunately the good often die young… a deep loss. Grace and peace upon you. Jim |
