too bad Audiogon seems to have morphed to fussy, picky buyers
For years I've bought and sold here with no drama but that seems to have been changing. Now sellers seem to want retail pricing for their products while wanting to low ball on anything they want to buy.
At the same time I see more and more fussy buyers nitpicking the purchase, requiring tons of hand holding and concessions after they buy a fairly represented good working order item.
I can barely type it once,let alone say it 3times in a row.
I’m glad that I already sold all the gear that I want to, 45k,and going fwd I will only be buying end game components and will no longer be stimulating the Industry’s with my coins.
I feel the same way and my last 3 transactions as a seller were transactions from hell. I am done selling equipment as it is too much of a hassle. Then there was the guy who bought a $1970.00 Magnum Dynalab FM tuner from me for $400.00 and then after using it a couple of days, decides he doesn't like it and either wants his money back, or wants more money off the tuner (claimed I sold him a defective piece). Never again!
I take the product back immediately and refund rather than give concessions. I can either keep it or sell it again at my leisure, I'm never selling because I need the money so there's no pressure, just don't like dealing with the new car buyer mentality but want it at the used car price stuff....
@stereo5 , what a difference 6 weeks can make, huh Bob? Here is a post of yours about the joys of selling in early March, on a thread about the cost of advertising on Audiogon:
03-04-2018 4:55pmI
posted 4 for sale ads yesterday here on Audiogon. All 4 items sold in
less than 24 hours. The fact that Audiogon has the largest amount of
viewers is what enabled me to sell the items very quickly. I happily
paid my 2% fees per item. Flea Bay not only charges 10%, but they also
keep your money in escrow until the buyer receives the item. I won't do
business there.
I have quite a few pieces that I should be selling, as I do not use. However, it's such a hassle, and in the end, you practically give it away anyway. So I don't bother to post anymore. Who knows? Maybe a year or two from now I will use some of it again?
I just can't bring myself to deal with buyers anymore. The used audio market has been trending down for about 5 years now, probably mostly due to the economy. The poor market has certainly helped to slow down my buying too. Not much fun here anymore......
Wow! I’m so sorry to hear this! I’ve been on audiogon since 2001 and have engaged in many purchases and sales, but I have not sold anything in several years and only made one purchase recently, as I have been very satisfied with my rig and have purchased some gear from my local high-end retailer.
As a buyer and seller, I always tried to treat people as though they were a personal friend. I guess that is out the window now, if this is the consensus. Of course, this is a self-selected group (bad seller experiences). I wonder if it is a more general feelng?
I'm not so sure it favors buyers but that buyers are increasingly demanding and used to getting their way, same thing happened on ebay and to some extent ebay encouraged this behavior. I found it odd that as a seller with 150 sales and 100% satisfaction I"d have my payment funds held until the buyer indicated they were "satisfied" with the purchase- even though the buyer had 10 transactions to their name. I would have thought that the process would favor the party with the highest number of completed and satisfactory transactions. I think it's a combination of demanding buyers and sellers feeling bullied and not wanting to get a bad review by a demanding buyer. Some times it's better to take the hit, take the product back and post bad reviews for the difficult buyer I think. Perhaps noting that if a return happens then the buyer needs to pay for the shipping or the shipping and ten percent of the selling price etc. to discourage buyer's remorse return attempts.
No, the market favors the buyer, and the last 4-5 years this has developed into a big time buyer’s market.
Good luck putting demands on a buyer returning an item. Unless you got them to pay with a check or money order, they are in control. PayPal will take your money back before the buyer even ships the unit back to you! No return shipping, no extra 10% restocking/advertising, nothing.
Great deals out there to be had if you are a buyer, just bite your lip and give it away if you are the seller.....or just keep it. ;^)
yeah, no worries - I never give it away, I'm never a desparate seller and- in my exp its the very people who grind you, nag you, complain and are looking to steal something at a ridiculous price that are the worst to deal with- you can never sell it cheap enough to make them happy. The best buyers are ones who buy without a lot of haggling, pay a reasonable price and know they're buying a pre-owned (and not brand new) product. Same thing when I was in the car business.
Then there was the guy who bought a $1970.00 Magnum Dynalab FM tuner from me for $400.00 and then after using it a couple of days, decides he doesn't like it and either wants his money back, or wants more money off the tuner ...
Been here since early 2000s and I feel there’s always been this element to the user base, and it’s not really that much worse these days. I think maybe you had a lucky streak for a while and then hit an unlucky streak.
I’ve had really good transactions in my time here, but as I buyer I rarely haggle, never tire kick, and hold back minor complaints (this is USED gear after all); as a seller I’m picky in whom I choose to respond to. I judge them on the style and content of their initial communication, and often don’t feel the need to take things further.
It is a hassle to sell used audio equipment. And it is getting harder to sell high-end components at a fair price because the market for high end equipment is shrinking.
I hear and feel the pain Been on ebay since the early days 2000 or so and it has NEVER been as depressing and volatile as a seller as the last couple of years have wrought. So many "buyers" who think they can just claim they never received it ( despite tracking info!) or it was defective etc. Paypal instant refund to them and they dont even have to ship it back!
Now I have been VERY lucky here, a lot of good sellers and buyers I have dealt with but..... This year for sure had some VERY dubious potential buyers wanting a very fairly priced item for peanuts to start with AND giving bad vibes right from the start. This has happened 3 times and all 3 I have just told them I prefer not to sell anything to them as just not worth my time and potential hassle. A couple got enraged over that and had to end up blocking them and reporting them to admin.
For sure it is a buyers market, always has been to some extent but the rudeness and arrogance that is increasingly common now is very hard to deal with.
I spent 40 years in the Real Estate business. It always amazed me when buyers wanted to start nitpicking and renegotiating their deal half way through escrow. It was especially bad during my last ten years in the business. I just chalked it up to the constant slide downward that our civil society has taken.
The days of doing business on a hand shake are long gone.
I agree with the sad state of the used market sellers.
I've been a part of this site since it began almost 20 years ago. Buying and selling always went smoothly, and with almost zero issues. I've even met people who've become friends by way of transactions. Audiogon used to serve as a central cog in the market, funding additional new and used purchases by a large number of folks. Two to three years ago, I noticed something happened, and the entire thing mostly shut down. I have no idea how the manufacturers have survived, as again, this site primed the pump for the engine.
Haven't sold much over the past few years, but wanted to dump a bunch of gear over the past couple of months. The audacity of some of the lowballers surprised me even as I've received hundreds of lowball offers over the years. How about a $50 offer for a current production component that retails for close to $5k, with several other $200 and $300 offers? No thanks. As others have said, I'd give it to a friend, family member, or young person with some interest, or even on Craigslist before that.
One person actually began contacting me, and continues to do so. He explained that no matter what the ad lists, even if it's below market value, he won't go beyond 70% of that asking price. His initial bid is always 20-25%, and he's willing to work up from there. Ironically, he ended up paying over $4000 for an item I listed initially for $2500, as I found a buyer I felt more comfortable with.
Best was a guy with ZERO feedback, and a member for just a few months who lowballed me, eventually came together on a price, never sent payment, berated me, disappeared, reappeared with another lowball offer when I reduced my asking price, I demurred as he gave me a bad feeling at every juncture, then sent me a lengthy email claiming I'm a fraud, and my "stellar" 18 years of feedback was a complete fabrication, made up of shills, fictional transactions, and some folks I conned and some I paid for
I’ve been a member since 2001 and have not listed anything in years. I have a tone arm and some power cables that I would like to part with. Since Audiogon instituted their new fees, I pretty much lost interest in selling. These reports of idiot buyers further reinforces my inclination to not list items for sale.
On the plus side, I’m happy with what I have. The extra stuff can just live in the closet for now.
One thing I could clarify is my perspective transcends Audiogon and audio itself.
We might consider the Sputnik moment for consumers gone off the rails the woman who with no sense of shame or decency returned the Christmas tree to Costco this past holiday
I have to admit that I have both bought and sold here (mostly bought) and all of my transactions have been smooth, knock on wood. So perhaps I have just been lucky. Everyone I have dealt with has been fair and good natured.
@cowan217. agreed that the likes of usaudiomart look like they were designed by a 5 year old, i would not buy from there mostly because it is so hard to even find what you are looking for. At least ebay and agon have well laid out sites with great search and sort features. Now if sellers could just sort the buyers before they even waste time.....
The issue probably has more to do with the fact that Audiogon seems to have become more mainstream over the years. Your initially closed-circle audio crowd has fallen prey to the likes of search engines that any idiot on the internet can operate. Audiogon’s marketplace ads are listed across the web now. Your trade-off is more potential customers, but also more undesirable customers. If Audiogon can’t regulate, then regulate your sales yourself by enforcing higher purchasing standards on your potential buyers. Minimum feedback requirements, phone call to purchase, etc.
I have been really fortunate, I generally ignore the unreasonable low offers i have also had a few absolute saints lately, USPS lost a Benz Ebony H and the buyer was just amazing.... ups managed to deliver three boxes over three days with a weekend between..... again, sainthood
to paraphrase winston churchill, agon is the worst system for sellers except for all the others--ebay is a total crapshoot and craigslist is overwhelmed by lowballers and outright scammers. from my experience, the substantial majority of buyers here are gentlemen and enthusiasts who deal fairly, but as others have said you're best off dealing only with members with a proven track record.
I have found the same is true on usaudiomart as well. Unfortunately my experience on Audiogon has been that way for years. Nothing new. Fleabay has it's own problems as well, namely too $$$ to sell items. One gets exposure but loses almost 20% on each sale.
I sold a pair of speakers on ebay, or at least I thought i did. The guy was hot to get them and we negotiated up to my full price. He paid immediately with PayPal. He called me the next morning begging me to give him his money back. I thought about it and declined. He became such a huge problem that the only way to resolve the issue was to return his money. The personalities out there can be down right wicked. He was an englishman on the east coast. It seemed like I got a more reasonable type on audiomart. Audiogon got expensive and there were too many low ballers. Audiomart is free, so far, and there is really nothing to lose by posting on audiomart IMHO.
I wouldn't be so upset over the current nature of buying and selling. This is indicative of what is going on all over the place. people have this sense that there is such a thing as free lunch. In the buyer/seller market, you are now seeing on TV/cable a whole series of flippers. They try hard to rip off sellers by pretending to be nice and complaining about their costs, etc. So, they try to buy as low as they can, not tying to be fair (why should they?)
same is true here. If you bought items with the thought that you will recover your costs later, that is a fallacy.
Enjoy your equipment and sound. Don't be in a hurry or desperate when selling and be patient. Ignore low ballers and just wait. There will be someone out there looking for that particular piece.
I have bought many items on Audiogon and I have never asked for a reduction in the asking price. If I think the asking price is too high, I move on.
I have sold many items here also. I typically price items below the market price. I price to sell. However, I never sell to low ballers. That is just insulting to me. They, like me, know what the average blue book price of the item is. A person wanting the item for their system to listen to music will meet a fair asking price. A person that is a flipper wants the lowest price they can get, and they lowball.
Oh I don't know. I've only had a limited number of transactions on Audiogon and only encountered one rude idiot. That's not bad at all compared to what I've found on eBay. Craigslist, despite what you hear, has always been easy and cordial. That's likely because Craigslist items are low dollar compared to Audiogon. Yes, sales have slowed notably here. What used to be snapped up in half an hour may well now not sell at all. Oh well. If you're a dealer that's serious. If you're just having fun, ces't la vie.
Fussy, fussy, fussy! I’m never going to be able to sell another item after the one and only item I ever sold was greeted with damning feedback by the buyer. I casually glanced at the faceplate of the amplifier I was selling (and had just bought, myself), and found no visual blemishes. I advertised it as such. Well, the dogs of hell descended on me from the buyer who found multiple blemishes and was highly irate. Who the hell looks at an amplifier with a magnifying glass? When it’s in a system. It’s pretty well blended in with the rest of the components. You don’t buy a stupid looking box for its beauty. You buy it for how it sounds! He claimed he won’t be able to sell it in that condition. Well, I bought it. I had no problems with it. I only sold it because it was not compatible with my system.
Fussy. Picky. Hand-holding.
Blame it on the Millennials!
tomcarr you said it. They have more money than brains and expect everything handed to them on a silver platter. Then the hand holding begins. It's because mommy and daddy took care of everything for them. Spoiled brats IMO. They should have been disciplined more when they were children.
Only local cash and carry sales for me as of 18 months ago! Totally disgusted with PayPal scammers and low ballers wasting our time with offers less than 25% retail, even for current iteration gear. Agree that I’d rather keep or gift my used gear rather than reward these jerks or have my payment again reversed by PayPal. Also agree that it’s not only Audiogon. That said, I’ve had more quality buyers on US AudioMart although responses are much slower, sales often taking 6 months or more.
Sellers blaming Audiogon for the customer and market?
If if you don’t have a good product at a fair price then guess what....
Just the other day I encountered a dealer wanted only 30% off of list price for 10 year old amplifier. As a negitiation tactic I was offered 2.5% discount if I paid cash. I kindly explained that I can find a new (less than 1 year) one for only 5% more and the new one would not be dinged up with deep scratches where the paint on the chassis was rubbed off. The same amp is still listed two months later....price dropped 2%...it will probably list for 9 to 18 months before sale with incremental discounts of 2% each month.
Classic example of seller knows better than the market or buyer.....
That has not been my experience with Agon at all. I've been on here since 2001 and have bought and sold a bunch of equipment. I have never had a problem, either as a buyer or a seller. When I recently sold some gear, did I get some lowball offers? Sure. I either ignored them or politely responded that the offer was too low for me to consider. You can't fault someone for trying to get the best price that they can, no more than you can fault a seller for asking for top dollar. You never know when someone just wants to unload something. I'm not insulted by a lowball offer, nor should anyone else be insulted. Just ignore it. I personally think that Agon is doing a great job in facilitating the used high end audio market. Try using USAudiomarket or eBay. Not even close.
This is a great conversation. I am considering selling some of my unused gear and it is good to have a heads up. I have been buying used high end gear for 25 years and have never had a problem with a seller. I recently purchased my second Counterpoint SA-1000 preamp in pristine condition for $400. Part of the fun is troubleshooting and tweaking to get the best out of your system. Maybe some of the new audiophiles do not have the patience...
Sorry but when you have a great product at an already very fair price and you STILL get offers at 50% of your asking price (or less in a couple of instance) then it would try the patience of a saint. And usually this has been accompanied by many irreverent emails even when you politely tell them their offer is not acceptable to but the product. In general the whole attitude from buyers has changed considerably over the past 20 years with rudeness and brusque arrogance being all too common.
I've never really had a problem buying or selling. Have got ridiculous lowball offers and told the offerers to get lost. One buyer claimed my fault shipment damage and filed a claim but PayPal disagreed with him, so in the end still no effect on me. Will continue to buy and sell.
oddiofyl, you assert: "So many Pay Pal scammers." I suspect you haven't had any real experience. I've sold hundreds of luxury items through Audiogon and my own website and my preferred payment method is PayPal since, unlike credit cards, they associate a bank account with a "confirmed" shipping address for which they promise seller protection. I've never been burned using a PayPal transaction. I can't say the same for credit cards.
Perhaps the increase in price perceptions is due to the fact that there are now many dealers offering trade-in and demo items for sale?
My initial point was really related to the numbers of flaky buyers and then lowballing and or ones who negotiate down the price and despite seeing several photos and having a very clear and fair description of the item then nit pick and threaten to try to return or negotiate further.
I was scammed by a dealer about a year ago. I purchased a Kiseki Blue NS cartridge from him and felt confident in his feedback. The Cartridge was listed in North Dakota, the member was in Cyprus, yes, Cyprus as in the Mediterranean Sea. He had me call him and assured me that the cartridge would ship immediately after I paid, so I paid with my Visa card. His add stated he only had ONE at that price, a day later he still had the add posted and received a higher price than mine, keep in mind, I already paid. I called him and left several messages, no response. Then I contacted my credit card company to stop payment suspecting a scam. He was rude, and full of excuses and when I was credited from him he shorted me $6 because of the exchange rate. He was NEVER located in North Dakota, and Audiogon sided with him when I left him negative feedback. So I get screwed for $6 and I'm unable to at least warn other members to stay away from him. Im starting to just keep my old equipment and will build a second system.
@whiskeypirate, I have seen ads from a guy in Cyprus . . . don't know if its the same guy, but how many people from Cyprus advertise equipment on here? I always thought that it was weird, and, although all seemed legit, I wasn't interested in dealing with someone in Cyprus, no matter how good a deal or his feedback. At least you got your money back. I would have disputed the exchange rate charge with Visa. The change in rates is not your problem.
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