I tried "12 and still love it, almost on any plinth the bigger gap between a turntable drive and a tonearm tower looks better :)) First "12 inch in my arsenal was Thomas Schick, second is Reed 3p , and the last purchase was Victor UA-7082. Personally (if i could) i would like to have all my arms in 12 inch version, but this is just aesthetics. Practically a '9 inch or 10'5 are great too, but a short arms sometimes too close to the platter and almost impossible to mount on several turtables like Technics SP-10, SP-20 series. Some popular long versions are just too expensive like FR66 for example. A '10.5 inch like EPA-100 mkII is probably ideal in this situation, glad to have one. |
Elliot, I have a 9" arm and a 14" arm. It all depends on the cartridge. I put stiff cartridges like the Koetsu and the Air Tight in the long arm. I put softer cartridges like the Lyra, Windfeld Ti and Clearaudio in the 9" arm.
I can't say one sounds better than the other. They sound different probably mostly due to the cartridges. The differences are surprisingly subtle. I can say that I have never heard a Koetsu do bass or sound punchier than it does in the Kuzma 4 point 14. I have a Rosewood Signature Platinum because it weights a lot less than one of the stone models which would push the effective mass over the edge. The Koetsu RSP and 14" Kuzma are a match made in heaven. The Windfeld Ti in the 4 point 9" will track anything you throw at it. It beats all the others in tracking tests. If I were to use just one arm I would get an SME V 12. It is a very light 12" arm and with the addition of head shell weights would be able to accommodate any modern cartridge. I like the 4 point 9 a lot but the reason I have it is that the SOTA will only take 9 to 10" arms. The Tri Planar arms are also excellent. |
keeping things more affordable, I am looking at George Merril's Gem Dandy PolyTable Super 12 with a Jelco 12" arm, 3 Jelco arm choices, 750L, 850L, 950L.
new: $3,000 to $3,700. plus tax and shipping.
http://www.hifigem.com/PolyTableSUPER12.html
No dust cover, I would have to make something (which I could/would do). ..................... Also considering an old JVC JL-B44 which came with a factory 12" arm, integral dust cover (important for me). As-Is or Refurb. $600 to $1,000. not many around,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6eWvwfLaQ
two eBay, from Japan
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264512255947?ViewItem=&item=264512255947
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Victor-JL-B44-Direct-Drive-Turntable/153409634015?hash=item23b7ed3edf:g:XzsAAOSwh0NchHAp
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@elliotbnewcombjr I run 12" and 9" Jelco 850 on the same table. (I’ve also got two 12" 750s.) The 12" is better. It’s more open and dimensional. If you are going for the GEM, get the 850L 12". It is so much better than the 550/750. I’ve not heard the 950.
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P.S. Stay with the Jelco magnesium headshell. You won't need anti-skating on the 12" although YMMV. You'll need phono cables. The Jelco 501 is perfectly good. Don't be tempted to replace it.
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Thanks for the advice.
So, up from 850L tonearm to 950L tonearm is + $300. Over many years, what's +10%?
Difference? limits cartridge type? advice? |
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We've been over this ground it seems like a thousand times, but I don't think all 3 of the Victor turntables you list have the "bi-directional servo". The TT81 (according to hearsay) and the TT101 (according to my personal experience) are the ones to have.
On tonearm length, a 12-incher would in theory always be "better", geometrically speaking, but you need to factor in the cartridge compliance, the tonearm effective mass (which will always be greater for a 12-inch vs 9-inch version of the same tonearm design and construction), and your ability to set up the tonearm with precise accuracy, because an error in setting up a long tonearm will result in a greater final error in the geometry, compared to a similar error in setting up a 9-incher. Further, longer tonearms might have greater problems with resonance, which will also affect SQ. There is no good single answer to your question.
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Victor UA-7082 is probably the best long arm you can buy for the lowest price ever compared to many others (if you can find a perfect sample), it’s cheaper than Schick and better than Jelco!
But the Victor TT-101 must be avoided if you don’t know a person who can repair it, it is expensive service and this turntable is full of bugs just because it’s too old and back then it was way ahead of its time. Not recommended for amateurs.
Look for Denon DP-80, Luxman PD-441 or 444, and Technics SP-10 mkII. They are fine! |
Chakster, the TT101 is not above criticism, but your statement that it’s “too old” is ridiculous, especially coming from you, and especially since the alternatives you name are about the same vintage. Each of those other TTs you name has its own Achilles heel as far as repairs are concerned.
And the op didn’t ask about vintage DDs.
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Elliot.
Congratulations!
I have the EXACT same setup and I can tell you there was also an optional lift off dust cover made specifically for that plinth.
I know this as mine came with it!
You may get lucky and find one or as you say, have one custom made, likely $175 or just over.
It is a fantastic combo and I have tried various vintage mm carts on it and all are a breeze to setup with the on the fly vta .
Don’t forget it’s 100vac so you WILL need a step down transformer for USA 120vac mains, again plenty on eBay.
That 7082 arm is the business for sure!
Have fun!
P.s. feel free to pm me if you have any questions on this setup. |
He agreed. TT81 TT with the UA-7082 arm, wide plinth with a spare board waiting for a 9" arm (for a new mono cartridge), and importantly wide dust cover! .... $1,280. delivered with tax. From Japan, confirmed working, no returns, wish me luck. I looked at his eBay store, a HUGE seller, 98% positive, I decided to take the risk.
This will hold me until I turn 75 in a few years when I probably will go for something new. Famous last words, right?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VICTOR-CL-P2-TT-81-UA-7082-set-AC100V-Free-Shipping-d506/264532995172
..................................... ARM LENGTH Denon specs for UA-7082 arm: effective length 282mm = 11-1/8". the shorter 7045 arm effective length is 245mm = 9-5/8" (If I get the matching Denon arm for mono). After researching more, I am actually happy with the 11-1/8" rather than full 12" regarding mass, compliance, overall size of TT. It's a move up from existing effective 232mm 9-1/8" arc. SPRINGY Floors If I had saved my SME 3009, I could have popped it in the back board for mono. I restored it years ago with help and parts from SME. I got rid of it and the Thorens TD124 because my floors are springy, and the Thorens' magnificent bearing couldn't deal with vertical vibration well. The speed control of the Thorens was cool, but it must be said, as temperature varied speed control was Needed! TT is now in better location, but no dancing at that end of the room please. House was built in 1951, I think the lumber was not properly dried due to excessive building spree after the war. I could brace underneath from the crawl space, now I just 'Walk away Renee' carefully. Anyway, I will re-think suspension for this unit. ................................................... MONO CARTRIDGE ADVICE? (need strong signal). I have my McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp with several phono inputs, happily two MM, and I love the sound of it's phono stage. (I wasn't a fan of prior McIntosh SS C28 phono preamp). So, two arms in is easy. I also love the sound of it's FM tuner, and as I often mention, McIntosh MODE switch is a great help refining my speakers brilliance and presence controls, refining anti-skate ... And, it has MONO Mode for Mono LP's. Many tube preamps do not exceed 6 tubes, this sucker has 17. .............................. Need Strong Cartridge Signal The preamp has hum that starts just above my max listening volume, so I need to get a mono cartridge with high enough output, Shure 97xe gives 4.0mV now. so I wouldn't go below 4.0mV for the new Mono cartridge. I'm gonna take the preamp to McIntosh in the spring when I visit my photo friend who lives 15 minutes from their headquarters in Binghamton, NY. They are very helpful. Last spring I pre-arranged, dropped both my SS pair (2250 amp, C28 preamp) off before lunch thursday, they had them ready to go the following Monday afternoon. Sold them to get the new tube pair, Cayin A88T (mk1 for 16 ohm tap) and the mx110z. btw, I just changed the Cayin's 6550 tubes for KT88's. I was happy with the 6550's but I prefer the KT88's.
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Chakster, the TT101 is not above criticism, but your statement that it’s “too old” is ridiculous, especially coming from you, and especially since the alternatives you name are about the same vintage. Each of those other TTs you name has its own Achilles heel as far as repairs are concerned. I meant only the expensive repair even to make it work, not everyone can pay $1000 or EUR 1000 + shipping just for the service to get TT-101 back to work, this is it. I paid less for all my turntables and they does not require service at all, they are all fine, paid $1200 for MINT SP-10 mkII and never ever serviced this original. Everyone can read the dedicated thread about Victor TT-101 Repair to understand how difficult it can be, especially for those who are not in NYC, and even your own experience can prove it. I am happy that one of my TT-101 is working, but another one is not. The reason why i mentioned SP-10mkII, Denon DP-80 or Luxman PD-444 is because it’s very easy to find a MINT condition working sample, and even minor repair does not cost even close to the cost of TT-101 repair ($1k). TT-101 is not for the amateurs to mess around with it. |
Chakster
I do agree with the sentiments of cost of repair for the 101.
Part of the reason I went with a 81.
And a 71 but that’s another story.
However I feel a good working 101 is likely near the Pinnacle of vintage DD table charts and if money was no object or concern I think I would pursue one.
BTW, the plinth on the 81 of mine and the the one the OP has bought is massive and very solid weighing in at about 40lb on its own and is a multiple layer construction.
Will be hard to beat that plinth. |
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VICTOR-CL-P2-TT-81-UA-7082-set-AC100V-Free-Shipping-d506/264532995172
Elliott Too fast. You bought the arm with dead rubber grommet that does not support the counterweight properly, you will have to replace it, the counterweight sag down too much, this is a typical problem for a cheap UA-7045 samples (with this problem they are normally sells as a junk). Look at the picture in the listing with a side view. When you will move the counterweight away from the arm tower the problem will be increased to much higher degree. This is junk, find someone who can replace the rubber part. I’ve seen many samples of UA-7045 tonearms, now i have 7082, all my samples are perfect, if you want to see what is perfect then look at the original arm (not a repaired one) and compare to yours which is almost fell off. Someone might tell you it’s normal to have a certain degree down at the counterweight part, but it’s not! I’m referring to the NOS (never used) sample and the arm pipe is just straight behind the arm tower, no matter where is the counterweight, also even if the additional subweight is address the counterweight part is just straight. My advice is to put that Shure to the recycle bin and look for a decent Victor X-1IIe or X-1II cartridges for this arm. It will be a killer setup, i know it because i have many. |
Chakster
I do agree with the sentiments of cost of repair for the 101.
Part of the reason I went with a 81.
And a 71 but that’s another story. Sure with shipping cost the repair is about $1400 for me, that's crazy. TT-81 is step down and i'm pretty sure will be easily beaten by Denon DP-80 However I feel a good working 101 is likely near the Pinnacle of vintage DD table charts and if money was no object or concern I think I would pursue one. Only if you have a warranty after repair is done, because if the problem will show up again then you're broke. BTW, the plinth on the 81 of mine and the the one the OP has bought is massive and very solid weighing in at about 40lb on its own and is a multiple layer construction. Will be hard to beat that plinth.
Denon DK-300 plinth is the same quality of even better, at least better finishing and a bit better shape in my opinion. Highly recommended. They made version for two arms too. I think Denon DP-80 is highly competitive to those Victor top of the line turntables. But i like my Victor TT-101, not decided on plinth yet, too many turntables, i can open a little museum here. |
chakster
I saw that, I shall see how much it sags when it gets here, I had to replace the rubber of my SME 3009. JVC factory sheet shows the original was never straight
https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/etc/ua-7082.html
looking closely at your new example, it is not perfectly straight Many JVC arms, birds eye view, the rear portion isn't even a straight line, ....? I am near NYC if a service center can be recommended. |
lewm
thanks for your help. My notes emphasize the word DOUBLE, i.e. 'Double Bi-Directional Servo'. (my nickname: DBDS) I read about it, only retained that it was the peak of their ideas back then. I noted only 3 TT have DBDS, TT101, TT81, TT71. I also noted that those motors can be found in QL-10, QL-7, and F6. I can't re-create where I got this from. If I am wrong about the TT71, I would like to see something from JVC about it. I am getting the TT81 with this purchase. |
lewm
you are absolutely right about proper alignment. I have the tools and experience, I will be especially careful and re-check the longer arm setup. Like construction, measure twice, cut once. I just bought some modern tools, goodbye Shure Sea-Saw tracking force guage, hello digital scale,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9TRSPC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
hello clear plexi block with 2mm grid,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07794JXYZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
hello new alignment disc (asked sister-in-law to give it to me for Christmas). I like that it is the thickness of an LP. I don't need the strobe on the other side, but, a confirmation, and when I help others ...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PH37HWP/ref=sspa_dk_hqp_detail_aax_0?spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVTQzSDhOUThNS0EyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjY1MDI1OVdUU0MzS0k5V1ZRJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA5OTI2MjcyNTBJWEI0TkkwNzZBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfaHFwX3NoYXJlZCZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1
Now I use a 1/8" thick mirror for front view as it 'doubles' any misalignment in the reflection, perhaps I will glue a thin mirror foil onto the alignment disc somewhere. The older you get, the harder it is to put a shim in one side if needed, and tighten those 2 screws. |
JVC factory sheet shows the original was never straight
https://audio-heritage.jp/VICTOR/etc/ua-7082.html
looking closely at your new example, it is not perfectly straight Not sure what do you mean, but i’m talking about straight line of the tube inside the counterweight behind the arm tower. LOOK HERE on the NOS sample. Now look at your sample (do you think it’s normal?). The seller screwed the counterweight to the armtower with no gap in between, in reality is will never be so close when you will balance your cartridge with the right tracking force (depends on the cart weight with headshell, especially MC). When you will move the counterweight away from the arm tower then it will almost fell off. I know what i’m talking about, i had at least 4 different samples of this tonearm on hands. It depends on the condition of the rubber, but when the arm was NEW it was absolutely in line with the armtube, no matter what you can find online, i had a NOS unused sample sealed in the box (not only various used samples). People who think it’s normal may never had more than one sample (i had 3 perfect sample and 1 bad). |
OP.
Do not forget to purchase a 120 to 100 vac step down transformer or you will run the risk of a melt down.
They are plentiful and cheap on eBay.
Good luck and enjoy as I am really happy with mine. |
@chakster
Most are aware of your preferences but since Elliott had already
purchased his table and arm, some of your words
were a definite "buzz kill".
Have yourself a merry Christmas.
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@totem395 So you think it's better not to tell him anything about the obvious problem with the arm counterweight when i see it ?
I'm just trying to help!
We do not celebrate Christmas at all, sorry
But i hope you're well and Mary Christmas
He did not even get the package yet.
Anything purchased on ebay can be returned with shipping compensation from paypal, every buyer on ebay is protected 100%. This tonearm is in junk condition, they are $150 in japan in this condition with broken counterweight. The seller can compensate or accept return or offer partial refund. My advice, actually.
Or it must be fixed by OP, the rubber part must be replaced.
P.S. Finding a perfect sample of UA-7045 is not easy and they're cost much more than the whole turntable he has bought (if the arm is NOS). A perfect used sample of this arm normally goes for $700+ on ebay.
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Mine was a dual outlet model so I could power both my tt-81 and tt71 from it.
it came with a built in cable of about five feet so cannot comment on the almost wallwart style of your first link.
I have mine removed in distance from both the TT and power strip and I hear no hum whatsoever. |
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TT101; TT81; TT-71 text from the above link: 81/71 Very successful LP drives sold as such in Japan and Germany. In other words : the last two markets really alive with high-fidelity... today !
All tagged with the HMV logo (His Master's Voice) and original components of the Laboratory series, these were either sold as drives or as integrated players, complete with Victor's UA tonearms and CL-P plinths.
The motor of both versions is a high torque 12-pole 24-slot DC-brushless but there is no Double Bi-Directional Servo as in the TT-101 topper.
Precise FG detecting section consists of 180 slots FG yoke with a magnetic disc and an FG circuit board with equivalent 180 printed coils for excellent precision of rotation.
The servo is applied on both positive and negative areas for the TT-81, as in the TT-101, but only on positive for the TT-71.
The TT-81 is a 101 sans Double Bi-Directional Servo and with a simplified pitch control system/display ; the functions and features are nevertheless the same : +/- servo, ±6Hz of 440Hz without switching off quartz-lock switch, soft-touch transport keys and electronic braking with reverse-current circuit.
The strobe is included in the servo loop to avoid AC fluctuations from affecting the actual reading.
The TT-71 is an 81 without +/- servo, no pitch control, an even simplified stroboscope circuit and a solenoid-activated braking pad.
Many integrated players were based on these two drives : QL-10 (TT-81), QL-7 (TT-81) or QL-F6 (TT-81 but with Double Bi-Directional Servo added) among others.
As drives or as integrated versions, the TT-81 and TT-71 sold like hotcakes throughout their long 8-year availability.
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I wish we could edit posts like other forums ?? Sure you can edit your post but you do only have a 30 minute window from initial posting to do so. |
The TT-81 is a 101 sans Double Bi-Directional Servo and with a simplified pitch control system/display ; the functions and features are nevertheless the same : +/- servo, ±6Hz of 440Hz without switching off quartz-lock switch, soft-touch transport keys and electronic braking with reverse-current circuit. Not quite correct as it is the TT-71 that has the soft touch transport keys, the TT-81 has a more "normal" button for the transport keys. |
@elliottbnewcombjr
They TVK are wrong/misleading regarding the TT-71
it is not Bi-directional nor coreless.
A lot of what has been said is true the TT-81 is a very good TT.
There in my mind still exists some questions as to its design
similarity to the TT-101 although many statements have been made.
I'll leave it at that since I can't definitely prove it.
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totem395, you are correct, this is the proper link for TT81 and TT71,
http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html
the TT101 page
http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-101.html
there are specific differences between 101, 81, and 71, which, after it gets going, or method of braking, really doesn't effect playing. the oil/spring/damping solutions seem to vary a spec also. .......................... as for the pre-packaged units, I gather: QL-10 and QL-F6 both had the TT101 motor, the QL-7 had the TT71 motor. Some mention of QL-F6 also having .... deck construction of those ...... QL-F6
http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-QL-F6.html
i'm glad lewm and others led me to finding more about these. |
chakster
you have a lot of beautiful toys, congrats, and thanks for the help. If the arm is a disaster, and I like the TT81 (and two arm wide deck/dust cover), perhaps two new arms. 60 day return, so cost of postage back is the extent of risk at the moment. |
mijostyn
thanks for sharing your experiences and advice |
noromance
thanks for your help. as far as anti-skating, I find it to be a vital component of alignment/imaging/successful involvement. The UA-7082 arm is effective 282mm, 11-1/8", so the arc and skate is different than a true 12". After verifying stylus tracking weight (1.25g now), I match the arm's toy anti-skate indicator to start, then listen, test records, use McIntosh MODE switch to move things side to side, walking back and forth as it is manual thus not the listening position. Then I have my Chase RLC-1 Remote Line Controller with it's Remote Balance from listening position to help refine anti-skate. It's worth the careful work. Then, for imbalanced engineering of occasional LPs, I use the Chase for active balance adjustment from the listening position. I have found a slight balance adjustment can make a very large difference, things just 'open up', various players now located/heard, now that specific track becomes more involving. I find this LP is a big help refining anti-aliasing listening. Have the CD, listen for imaging of the 3 players, then the LP. Note: they don't all 3 play on every track, gotta read the notes for each track.
https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Trio-Paco-Meola-McLaughlin/dp/B07DQ32189/ref=tmm_vnl_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
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elliott
A note, the TT-101 has an input voltage change block accessed
once the cage is removed. Perhaps the same is true for the TT-81
and a step down may not be needed.
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I am fairly sure that neither the tt81 or 71 have the input voltage change block.
A step down is likely required and cheap insurance.
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@elliottnewcombjr Anti skating is a bigger deal with short arms. There is a general consensus that 12"+ arms do not require it. |
voltage block?
I'll be taking it apart,, that's for sure, see if any mice lurk within, and, below where I will be putting the 9" arm eventually.
I will let everyone know for sure about any internal voltage change block. I probably will order the small 100w 100v wall wart, have it ready, keep or return if not needed, or if it hums/makes something else hum.
........................
anti-skate - long arm
I get the point about long arm/less anti-skating, but whatever arm I use, I will check and get it floating properly, even if it needs just a speck! |
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Totem
i just examined my tt-71 and there is no voltage block for changing voltage input.
i would be very sure there is not on the tt-81 either but as I am playing albums on it right now not going to get checked for a while.
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uber
If you do open it up pls post your findings.
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Sounds like a job for Christmas Day after all presents opened and everyone is now bored.
Stay tuned,it’s a heavy beast to move in that plinth.
The 71 was out of the playing arena which is why I could check it easily |
Free shipping, it won't be here until 1st or 2nd week of Jan.
I'll take photos of the mice within, how do I post them here?
I've been reading about using faucet washers or O rings to repair the counterweight sagging rubber. I'll figure something out.
What do you think of $350. for an UA-7045 arm (probably also sagging rubber). |
That's a fair price for a UA-7045 arm and yes likely to show some sag on the rubber.
From my experience unless the arm has never been used then they are ALL going to have some small degree of sag in that area.
The 7045 on my 71 has slightly more sag than the 7082 on the 81 but I have not worried about it one single jot.
And unless you are an absolute perfectionist for every detail I would just dial it in when you get it and see what you think rather than worry about a slight amount of sag.
I was also considering setting up a second arm for mono but not sure yet if I want to or need to start off down that rabbit hole!
Good luck and again congratulations on your purchase of what I am sure you will come to agree is a fabulous vintage DD table!
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Thanks, Like a camera purchase, I'm basking in the glow of decision.
It's better beat my cheapo Audio Technica AT120 with Shure 97xe which I get very involving results from. |
Chakster, I owe you a slight apology: The OP did ask about the Victor tonearm, so far as I can tell.
As to the rubber grommet on the UA tonearms, I will accept your statement that the CW starts out level with the arm wand, because I never owned an NOS one, but I still maintain that a few degrees of "sag" is not catastrophic, and there are reasons to believe it is even advisable, as the sag (a few degrees but perceptible) puts the center of mass of the CW in the same plane as the surface of the LP. Many modern tonearm designs (like your and my beloved Reed tonearms and like my Triplanar) do this deliberately, as it minimizes the change in VTF that occurs as the cartridge tracks a warped LP. Further, the grommet decouples the CW from the arm wand with the pivot in between, which is beneficial also. The later versions of the Triplanar also deliberately decouple the CW using a flexible joint, albeit a stiffer one than the one on the UA tonearms. We’ve had this discussion at least half a dozen times.
If Victor designers really thought it was imperative to have the CW sit in a straight line with the arm wand, do you think they would have incorporated that flexible grommet, which inevitably permits sag, in the first place? I don’t. So, the photo you showed of the tonearm that is to be purchased by the OP looks perfectly OK to me. The sag is minimal, and I wouldn’t touch it. Elliot, my advice is leave it alone. Enjoy.
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