upgrade question regarding DAC and streamer

Wow, that is a really challenging question... complex. 

I have owned Sonus Faber Olympica for many years, I upgraded to Sonus Faber Amati Traditional a few years ago. 

After some thought. I would recommend spending some time planning where you want  your system to go, then slowly replacing one component at a time. 

Imaging is the result of your whole system. The heart of your system is the preamp. Your streamer isn’t too bad... so it really does not make sense to replace that until you have the permanent "core system sound". That would come from your preamp, amp, and speakers. Then you would upgrade your front end. 

Your speakers can support the sound you want... and be a bit forgiving and musical. Good that you chose those first. 

The first thing you want to do is to identify your target sound. One way of looking at different sound types...1)  highly detailed / analytical / a bit dry... but holographic... Burmeister, Luxman, on this side, 2) Middle of the road, MacIntosh... warm, bassy, but lacking in detail (important for imaging), and 3) highly musical, natural sounding, for instance, Audio Rearch, Conrad Johnson. 

Outstanding imaging can easily come from any, but the first and last are the most easily achieved. It is critical at your stage to decide where you want to go. Be very careful with treble... excessive treble gives the impression of great detail and imaging... but can be fatiguing or lack musicality... by having an attenuated midrange. Midrange is the key to the emotional connection with music. 

I recommend a lot of auditioning to determine what camp your tastes are in. The first component would be recommend searching for would be a great preamp... consider used to get as high up the audio chain you can get. I favor Audio Research and Conrad Johnson. Then amp... then finally DAC and then streamer. 

If I was doing this, it could easily take a couple years to slowly choose and upgrade all the components. But when done, you will have an incredible system. 

In between auditioning (consider travel)  different systems, try mix in some real acoustic music... symphony, small jazz group, and/ or individual instruments. Calibrating yourself with real music will be really advantageous in the long run. 

If you are interested, my systems are shown under my userID. 

Since you have a good relationship with your dealer I’d think they would let you demo some streamers/DACs in your system and then you’ll know.  Personally I’m not a fan of combo units and would keep these things separate, but that’s me.  Beyond that, I agree with @ghdprentice that for imaging/soundstage I’d look to the preamp and then the amp first.  Your streamer with the LPS is on the level of the Innuos Zen, which is pretty solid and would again point me toward the pre/amp first.  That’s not to say a better streamer and DAC won’t make significant improvements because they certainly can, but again a demo would go a long way toward seeing if that’s the right thing to address given what you’re looking for.  I’ve not been a McIntosh fan in the past because I found their sound overly warm/lush and veiled in the treble/upper mids although they seem to have shifted their sound profile toward more detail include the treble/upper mids.  Still, if I’m looking for a more expanded 3D soundstage McIntosh is not where I’d go, and something like ARC and some others would offer more improvement there I’d think.  One thing I’d very strongly consider is a tube preamp if going to a tube amp is a bit too much.  Just some thoughts FWIW, and best of luck.

If you have only one source you may want to consider 

1. Best dac you can afford that has excellent preamp built in

2. A very good stereo amplifier

IMO your MA8950 is almost as much of a bottleneck as its built in DAC if you are looking for greater precision and focus. MSB has option for streamer and has a decent built in preamp from what I read. It should be in a right direction 

Wonderfully complex question and you’re sure to receive lots of opinions. I recently upgraded from a McIntosh C52 preamp which uses the same DAC as you are currently using. You are wise to consider upgrading because I know now that the Mac DAC was very limiting. My path led me to a Roon Nucleus+ with upgraded power supply and network filter, quality USB feeding an Allnic D-10000 DAC. Well, at the upper end of your budget, this solution seems like endgame. The tube DAC is OTL (read about it if you are unfamiliar). It produces an analog-like sound that even discerning vinyl only friends find impressive. It is forgiving with poorly recorded 90s digital music yet brings the most out of well recorded music. I absolutely love it.

I would follow all the advice you are getting with these guys, I have been going round and round for a couple weeks on a streamer that fits my listening tastes and what’s fits in my system. All the advice from this forum made me read, audition, talk a lot  with the wife, friends and finally decided on the Nagra streamer. It’s easy to use, no fluff and stuff, I don’t need art work looking back at me from a distance, I have my iPad, a Ethernet cable, a RCA cable and a electric plug in and you are done. It’s small, high quality, easy to integrate into your system and you are not paying for a dac you don’t need, in my case. All the streaming services are built in..

I have Revel be228 dr8ven by orchard audio starkrimson ultra with a quad artera pre. I am using zen mini IV with lpsu and denefrips Pontus 2...I tried other days and the Denefrips opened the soundstage up and gave me the resolution I wanted. Ladder dac definately did the trick. 

There's a thousand great DACs out there that would fit you're needs.  You ask a thousand audiophile for recommendations, you get a thousand different answers, then you're right back to square one, LOL!!!  Happy listening.

I have Revel be228 dr8ven by orchard audio starkrimson ultra with a quad artera pre. I am using zen mini IV with lpsu and denefrips Pontus 2...I tried other dacs and the Denefrips opened the soundstage up and gave me the resolution I wanted. Ladder dac definately did the trick. 

I agree with others in this thread that stated this is a complex question and that sound quality, especially staging, imaging, and timbre (most important to me) is affected by system component synergy more so than an individual component.  To me, upgrading a system is a process.  I will outline the process I use.  

1. Establish your perception of the sound of live, acoustic musical performances, both large venue orchestral compositions and small venue chamber music, ensemble jazz, and rock).  Large venue rock and jazz is not a good benchmark due to the engineering challenges faced in large venues and variability in sound quality at different seating positions.  Note instrument timbre, imaging, image density, staging, macro and micro dynamics, and how the sound blooms from leading edge to harmonic decay.  
2. Listen to well recorded music, comparing your perception of how live acoustic music sounds and noting differences you which to focus on for improvements.   
3. Research trade journals for equipment in you budget where the author publishes the equipment excels in sound quality attribute you have identified as an opportunity for improvement. 
4. Find a good dealer that will let you do an in-store head to head evaluation or better, an in home evaluation, and with a good return policy (with or without a restocking fee.  Validate the published review and determine if there is a high benefit/cost ratio.  

Responding directly to your question, changing your digital front end can make an improvement in staging and imaging, but you need to be more specific in defining the improvement you wish to make.  The attributes of staging include, without limitation; width, depth, presentation (forward or back stage) image focus, image size, image density, ambient bloom in the spaces between performers, ambient bloom into the venue.  I will give you my impressions of some DACs you are considering.  Remember, my impressions are based on my perception and my ears, so it is a subjective opinion.  Your current Innuos DAC has exceptional staging and width, and good focus at its price point.  Is presents a more backstage presentation  that is light in density and airy.  The DCS Lina will be an improvement in all sound quality attributes but will still be a further back presentation, light in density and airy.  It will reproduce excellent between instrument and hall ambience and harmonic decay.  The MSB is my favorite of the three that will have a up front presentation with dense and palpable images, as well as the between instrument and hall ambience.  Others to consider include the Mola Mola Tambaqui, which to my ears is the timbre, dynamics, and soundstage champ, except for between instrument ambience retrieval where the DCS and MSB are better.  The MM has an up front presentation (not to the liking of some but to my preference) with excellent width, depth, and focus.  The ARC DAC9 excels at bloom (best of the bunch), ambient information retrieval, palpable image density, and stage width and depth.  Each of these exceptional products have a distinctive sound pallet, so you need to read information on them and audition to determine which you like.  The Nagra is pricy but also an exceptional DAC for the same reasons noted for the ARC.  
 

Improving your amplification will also help.  Others have mentioned ARC and CJ tube designs, and Burmester (which I personally do not find dry but rather sweet and highly musical).  Others to consider Audio Note (my favorite but above my means) and Gamut.  All have their own sound pallet so in repeating myself, research, audition, and choose what brings you emotionally closer to the musical composition and performance.  The only right or wrong is determined by your own ears.  Good luck.  

@jrdavisphd     I think others have given good advice--your streamer is not likely to be the problem. 

I would want to know what you're seeking when you say "imaging."  More pinpoint focus, perhaps?  I don't think real, live music sounds like that, but some audiophiles want that anyway.  Are the images your system produces larger or smaller than the real instruments?  Answers to those questions might yield more useful directions.

I think speakers and the room contribute a lot to imaging.  I'm not familiar with your speakers.  If your room is too reflective or asymmetrical, that can screw up imaging and require room treatments or different speakers for improvement.

OP

 As one of the posters had posted the Pre-amp seems to play a significant Role.

you have done quite well for the room treatment and that is the most important part for the imaging you are going for. The dcs Lina and streamer combo is very good

You will hear the changes distinctively. 

Your speaker is top notch and so is your amp. if you think/hear your speaker amp combo is working with good synergy, then an external pre-amp may help improve it. OR you may then spring for a complete separate. Then at that time, I would recommend the gryphon family. I heard it in separate occasions, and I have to say, it is a level of its own

good luck

Very thoughtful and well posed question.  Very nice system--the system detail in your ask really helps.  Myself and all my friends in the hobby with systems at this level are all using separate DACs and streamers.  I would advise the same and not get a combo unit. 

Your DAC is a weak link so I would start there.  Get the best DAC you can and use the onboard clock.  The improved clocking will greatly enhance your imaging. The next step would be to upgrade your streamer which will improve the imaging further.  Good luck and cheers.  

I have a Macintosh MA 8950 paired with Dynaudio Heritage Special speakers. I owned a BlueSound Node 2i streaming Tidal into the Mac DAC, the DA2 module. After a few years, I was looking to upgrade in search of better sound, decided the weak link was my streamer so I bought the Innuos Pulse, retails around 3200. When I added that piece, I didn’t hear an immediate improvement instead I thought things sounded less integrated (for lack of a better way to describe it). I then auditioned the Aurender N200 and liked it very much but wasn’t prepared to spend $6000 for it.  Also, some research told me that the DA2 module DAC in the Macintosh might now be the “weak link’”. I started auditioning external DACs, the Lab12 and the SPL, average between the two is about 3k.  Each of these DACs made it clear that better sound stage, separation, depth, nuance could be obtained through a different DAC. Then my dealer got the Hegel D50 DAC into the store (4,900). I took that home, auditioned it and found it to be better than the other two DACs that I had tried.  I bought that DAC.  My system sounds great.  What I said to my dealer after this process is….You don’t know what you don’t know until you know it. That is the revelation that I had improving these pieces in my system.  I always thought the Macintosh/BlueSound sounded great and was skeptical that I could improve it at all but knowing my streamer was $600, I thought spending more money would make an improvement. So in the end, $8k later, my system sounds great.  I hope this helps in some way, just from someone who owns the same McIntosh amplifier. 

I would consider a Grimm MU2 as a DAC and streamer combo that has spectacular imaging. As a bonus you get a really good analog preamp with line level input. 

When you put your shortlist together put this on it, you wont regret it even if its not your final choice. It will be an eye opener https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-x1.html

Why would a better preamp improve sound?

@jrdavisphd You are getting some really good advice and everyone has consistent themes.  In my own journey cycling through gear, what I've found through trial and error that aligned with advice dealers and other audiophiles have provided.  Speakers make the biggest difference when you chasing a certain sound, that's followed by the amp / room treatment as the room treatment is basically an extension of the speakers.  Speaker placement is also key.  The Pre Amp is next in line, followed by the source.  Now, this assumes that when you get to the source, you have a decent source, a solid vinyl rig, CD player or streaming set up, they don't have to be world class or crazy expensive.  If you haven't already, I'd try different sources, vinyl or CD, if you get more of the sound you are chasing with those sources, you have proof of concept that the rest of your gear can deliver that sound you are chasing, will confirm that if you tweak your streaming set up you'll be rewarded.  I'd then see if a dealer would let you trial an app, pre separate set up along with a streamer / DAC.  Sounds like a big ask but I've had a dealer provide me those.  You could then experiment, drop the pre into your existing set up, using your Mac as the Amp and DAC, then try using the pre and a separate DAC.  This will allow you to see what makes the most difference with your speakers, room which is already your anchor.  Synergy between your speakers and Amp. are key and then through the rest of the gear.  Think of it like a car, your speakers are your chassis, drivetrain, suspension and the amp is your engine.  If those components aren't paired well together, nothing else will be quite right.  The Pre is like your transmission, if that's not aligned with the engine, chassis, drivetrain the car won't really reach its potential.  In streaming, if you have a solid streamer, you already do, a DAC will have a bigger impact on sound but in your system the streamer / DAC is what would take the rest of your gear from good to very good to great, in your case more likely from very good to great.  The DAC would be like swapping a set of serviceable tires to high performance, if the rest of the car is set up to take advantage of the high performance tires, the change in performance will be noticeable.  If you then switched fuel from 93 octane to racing fuel, if the car is set up to benefit from the change, you'll notice a difference, that's a streamer in this case.  In all this though, if you have the chassis / drivetrain of a truck, a Turbo Charged engine designed for speed but not for torque or towing and a transmission designed for a family sedan, won't really matter what tires or fuel you use, if you have the chassis, drivetrain, transmission all aligned, a decent set of tires and 87 octane will still give you a heck of a thrill, better tires and racing fuel will give you that little extra that takes you from very good to great. 

A good preamp is critical and is often called the heart of the system for a reason, so do nor underestimate its importance.  It is especially critical when it comes to things like imaging, soundstage, and tonality.

Let me also recommend Robert Harley's book: The Complete Guide to High End Audio. It lays out the principles of putting together a great system, what each component contributes, terminology etc. It is a must read for folks upgrading their systems.

Good friend of mine had DCS Bartok (not Apex).  We did a dac shootout on his system with my Goldnote DS10, with optional external power supply.  He preferred his Bartok, but I preferred my Goldnote - thought it sounded fuller, more organic.  And it cost one-third the Bartok.  So I’d recommend listening, and actual a/b comparisons.  Just because you have a $15k budget doesn’t mean you have to spend $15k.

Thank you all for your very helpful information!

I'm in a similar position, with a McIntosh C2700 preamp, currently using its DA2 DAC but am looking for a more musical/emotionally engaging experience.  I borrowed an MSB Discrete DAC from my local dealer for a couple of days and had a rather interesting experience - when I connected the Discrete DAC to balanced inputs on my C2700 I wasn't terribly impressed, feeling that it wasn't notably more enjoyable than the DA2.  What got interesting is when I connected the Discrete directly to my power amp.  It was a completely different experience and had the sound I was seeking - very open, and completely engaging.  One of those experiences where I wanted to keep listening to more and more songs.

The downside is that the Discrete (as well as the Premier above it in the MSB lineup) doesn't have an option for an analog input.  I no longer have a turntable but I do have a surround processor (McIntosh MX123) that I feed the front left and right channels to the C2700 in Passthru for watching video.  So for me this would mean a completely separate setup and getting a couple other speakers to connect to the home theater setup.