VAC preamps - too expensive?

@jumia I'm sure there is a Denon amp with a feature-packed remote that will more than meet your needs at a fraction of the cost of a VAC.  I'm so glad that VAC didn't needlessly place additional wiring and circuitry into my amp that could only degrade (not enhance) sound quality.  Criticizing VAC for a lack of robust features on it's remote is like criticizing haiku for its brevity.

Absurd. They did extra wiring for a special ht bypass button on front.

they can do it with no sq impact.  
No one is asking for input on remote.

they profit more.  
I would pay extra for a working input button on remote.

Dropping gems like "absurd" and "they profit more", it sounds like you are just here to complain about not being in the target market of VAC, rather than seriously considering a VAC preamp. Have you even heard one before? VAC specifically made a decision years ago to start catering more to ultra high-end purist 2ch enthusiasts, rather than compete with the deluge of cheaper / budget Chinese-made tube amps. Yes that left some customers behind with the new lines. But they still service their old products, going back many years now, as much as possible. 

There used to be a user here mdavid0 or something who would drop controversial titles like this just to stir it up.

Yet they ventured into ht. So anyone use it for ht?

ht users want an exquisite tube preamp that has input changing capability on a remote.  Vac almost got there.

I have had the VAC Master with phono pre for about 3 weeks now. Holy Moly!!  To me it is worth every penny, and then some.  The sound is almost palpable and with texture.  I cannot use if for background music while I do something else anymore, because inevitably I end up in the listening chair intoxicated with the new sounds from albums I have had forever.The lack of inputs on the remote is not a problem for me because I mostly listen to vinyl and occasionally a cd.  I have to get up to load the disc or place the lp anyhow.  I would never ever believed that any preamp could make such a huge improvement.  Just get it!!

Well, seems its a nice preamp worth owning.

however, i called today and wanted to get a sales quote on Master and to my horror they increased price by $3k a few weeks ago,  same item.   shameon me for waiting.  Now its at $25k and was also told it may take 5 mnths to receive.  

They are hand built to order.  I didn't have such a long wait, though.  No shame for waiting, just bad luck is all.  In my estimate, still worth it.

The Master’s retail without phono was $27 / 28K, so is it now $30K MSRP? I mean, I knew inflation was coming so I went on a buying spree this spring, including my Master. I think it took maybe 10 weeks max from order to delivery in early May...

If you have a high-end turntable, the VAC onboard phonos are a work of art and well worth it. The only reason I didn’t add one to my Master is because I already had their Renaissance SE phono, which is the same circuit & parts. But the Master’s phono is a real masterpiece, with all hand P2P wiring (the loaner I had for a while had it).

Did you buy it??



jumia OP188 postsWell, seems its a nice preamp worth owning.

however, i called today and wanted to get a sales quote on Master and to my horror they increased price by $3k a few weeks ago,  same item.   shameon me for waiting.  Now its at $25k and was also told it may take 5 mnths to receive.  

If you have a high-end turntable, the VAC onboard phonos are a work of art and well worth it.

I completely agree. My Phi Beta has a very similar phono circuit, maybe even the same one, if executed, I’d imagine, at a somewhat lower level than the Master. It has 6 x 12AX7 with Lundahls. Mine is 2 x LOMC, and I had Brent upgrade the transformer on one to the Statement version, along with installing screw terminals for both so I can slide in nude Vishays of any value for unlimited loading options. It is superb. I might even prefer this phono stage to my Allnic H3000, which is no slouch.

@wrm57
The phono stages are what kept me coming back to VAC. The 6-tube MM stage is ridiculously good. The Master’s version (and the Ren SE) is tweaked and has exotic parts, but any version of their 6-tube phono is solid 24K gold for our vinyl. Even the scaled-down 3-tube phono is shockingly good. Incidentally I have a friend who’s looking to pickup a Phi Beta w/ phono, apparently they are superb.

I have a lot of cartridges in my collection, and it’s always refreshing to hear how the VAC phono lets almost any ~$2K MC cartridge transcend to the next level. I mean, it’s still best with my best cartridge (Blue Lace Diamond), but it’s crazy how much it boosts the Benzes/Shelters/Ortofons. There’s no "diminishing returns" with their phono stages - they’re well worth every penny. I putzed around with Herron / Rogue Ares / etc for a bit, and the VAC phonos cost more (even as add-ons) but they really truly BLOW AWAY those other phono stages. And now the Master line stage perfectly matches their phono’s beauty.

I would suggest experimentation with external SUTs (being very careful in choice of interconnects, which must be short and low capacitance), if occasion allows - I’m actually not a huge fan of the Lundahl amorphous core MC SUTs, and I have a SUT collection that I find preferable to them (matched per cartridge). I can see that some would consider the crystalline/detailed sound of the Lundahls to match perfectly with the warm/lush VAC MM, but then some like me like to double down on that warm/lushness and just wallow in its delights lol. EAR MC-3 or MC-4 and and Bob’s Devices Sky SUTs are warm and lush in the midrange but also very dynamic and exciting.

I have a sneaking suspicion the Alps RK27 potentiometer was my main complaint about the Renaissance V preamp - they just don’t sound very good - which of course is fully rectified in the Master with its badass custom-motorized RK50.

@mulveling I'm totally onboard with SUTs, although I can't use them with with my Phi Beta because it came with dual MC, no MM. This was the personal preamp of Jay Kaufman of Audio Revelation, and he ordered it that way. No matter, really, because I have the Allnic H3000 in the same system and it has two MM inputs (plus two MC). My rig has 5 tonerarms active, which is absurd but big fun, and I use several stand-alone SUT (including Bob's) sometimes. Allnic has its own built-in SUTs, too, which compete well to my ears with my stand-alones. So for me, without the opportunity to directly compare separate SUTs in the VAC, whatever minor failings Lundahls might present are lost in the excellence of its overall presentation and sound. And I just adore the unlimited loading options. It's weird how tiny changes in resistor values can have an audible impact.

So is streaming via VAC worthwhile? Seems vinyl is very popular, albeit using a VAC phonostage. So if solely streaming does using a VAC make sense?

@jumia
I am not good to answer that; vinyl is the only source in my main system! But, I can't see how it wouldn't help streaming too. It's such a beautiful sounding line stage now that it's settled in my system (and tube-rolled to Amperex Holland 7308!), perhaps even exceeding how strongly I feel about their phono stages. 

People who want to feel like they're hearing perfect measurements & specs need not apply here - it's simply a gorgeous sounding component. 

Seems not a good fit if only using it for streaming.  Vinyl a better fit.

I’ve decided to buy a dog and send my kid to college.  

I run all digital for now, and the VAC does an incredible job with it. 
Good decisions @jumia.

Vac aint digital. Very confusing comment.

vac dont have input on remote. How awful? How du u deal with this?

@kmmd obviously meant that he runs all digital sources through his VAC. It really wasn’t a confusing comment unless you choose to label it as such.

Ok, thanks.
but remote not doing inputs has gotta be annoying.  
Not many use this in home theatre system my guess.

@jumia, VAC is definitely not for you. The remote doesn’t have an on/off button, doesn’t have a mute on/off button, doesn’t have an input change button or an HT bypass button. That’s up to 4 times you have to get up to change things for HT. Good thing my Apple Watch 6 keeps track of the number of steps and stands I do just to use the VAC. Use of the VAC puts my Hydrow to shame.

I suspect a tiny fraction of a % of VAC's customers use their preamps in a HT setting.  VAC is 2-channel territory all the way.  

VAC is arrogant and overpriced.  HT users matter.  

For some reason I find it oddly comforting to know even an inanimate object like a preamp can be arrogant. Good to know.

Why is VAC arrogant? Every company has to define its target customer base and cater to its needs. I'm sure, like every other company, they perform market analysis and identify the segments they want to target. If they see a sizable market for HT users, I'm sure they will offer extra features. Quite clearly, their core customer base could care less about HT. Trying to please everyone all the time is a recipe for bankruptcy on steroids.

I, for one, hope that 2-channel designs stay as far as possible from HT. 

op is trolling

no energy for the trolls please

miller, didn't you know, the arrogance of the maker of hifi gear, or its owner, enters through the ht bypass jack of any unit

that is why arrogant audiophiles stick with 2 channel only... 😁😁😁😁

op is frustrated with quest for for great sound/functionality in an overpriced market.

Highend stereo preamp manufs could careless about ht users and its a losing strategy. Dealers are sooooo frustrated with functionality limitations.

the world is changing and is demanding easier integration of stereo and ht systems. Its not that hard.
Stand up for change. Make more money!! See the light.

@jjss49 
I get kinda the same vibe - it's a weird thread where OP complains about VAC pricing & features, then pretends to contemplate buying one, then goes back to complaining lol. Yes, we get that OP wishes it had remote input switching - I prefer not to pay for that. Sure we wish it magically cost under $10K, but that's not feasible with its material quality, craftsmanship, service/support, and being made in USA. 

VAC customers buy it for the purity of sound. Period. We believe Kevin is a voicing genius. I'm still surprised it even has an HT bypass. Half of my comments on audiophiles' high-end 2ch systems are "get that TV out of there" lol

VAC has a big button on front of VAC for ht bypass. Why?  No one else does this, yet they arent interested in ht users.

very strange.  Why dont you want input selection functionality? Is it all about SQ?  Maybe family wants convenience of not dealing with a very complex rack of components all the time, they are lazy like most of us.

You should buy something else instead of whining.

If that is not apparent to you it is to me.

vac makes great gear, has for decades, kevin hayes is a brilliant designer, a perfectionist (and a very nice, stand up person too) - i still own a set of his 4-chassis pa90c amps, which was one of the very small handful of original tip-top rated amps by harry pearson at the outset of the absolute sound ... that amp put the kevin and his company on the map, and the rest is history

vac prices are very high (always been), but there is clearly a market, of well heeled aficianados who value the outstanding performance, looks, engineering and build quality, and are willing to pay for it

if the price is too high for you, don’t complain and make a stink, just buy something cheaper, that fits your budget and sensibilities -- no shortage of very good performing tube gear out there priced at more ’affordable’ levels - rogue, quicksilver, primaluna, jolida, raven, dsachs and so on...

’why are porsches and mclarens soooo damned expensive, folks who make them are just arrogant jerks... i hate them...’ 😠😠😠

I have owned my VAC Cla 1 MK II for 20 years. Back then I believed to get to the end game faster, so I did. I pick it up this week after getting it upgraded to Mk III status so I am now set for the rest of my lifetime for a pre amp. I also have the VAC Renaissance 70/70 Mk II amp which I will be dropping off to them in January 2023 to get upgraded to Mk IIII status. And that will be all I need for the rest of my lifetime. I may be venturing into getting some very nice 300 B tubes for it next. Got my eye on some PSVANE ACME 300 B’s. I have to get out of my chair to change the volume on each of the volume pots, one for each channel. I don’t mind. Funny, same goes for all the vinyl enthusiast, each time they swap an LP, it’s really no big deal right? Most of my digital front end is now current and replaced with current designs in the past year as well as new speakers. I am engaged with my system each time I see those tubes glow, I just stare at them as the music flows, sounds wonderful to me still after all these years. VAC makes solid stuff and stand behind it after decades.

Aside from all the coloration VAC does it's a nice preamp.

They need to modernize their functionality.  They have a home theater knob on the front of the box and yet the remote can't control input selection.  I believe volume can be controlled by the Remote.

I think they're losing a lot of business unfortunately maybe they don't care.

Aside from all the coloration VAC does it's a nice preamp.

They need to modernize their functionality.  They have a home theater knob on the front of the box and yet the remote can't control input selection.  I believe volume can be controlled by the Remote.

Could you better describe that "coloration" from your listening experience, or are you just echoing someone else's opinion here?

This thread keeps going, somehow. You're not in the target market for a Master: an upscale, analog purist, hand-wired 2ch audio preamp with no digital control chips or volume and absolutely minimal relay switching (just the Mute control). I'm in their target market; I bought one. I actually DON'T want a Master with "modernized" features - that's not what core VAC is all about.

A far better match for your use case is an Audio Research Reference 6 or 6SE - these too are wonderful units, and I also own a 6. But here too you complained about "too many tubes". The 6H30 is long lived and ultra reliable. The single 6550 should be replaced every 1000 hours. This is minimal maintenance IMO. 

The Master has only 2 tubes because it uses Lundahl input and output transformers to handle the I/O loading. You either need to look for other tube designs using that approach (which is relatively rare), or (more likely) pivot to SS preamps. 

I'm looking at the Conrad Johnson Gat2 which provides all the functionality you need inside a home theater.

Their internal design is simplified as well.

 

@jumia-

It seems like you’re always steering back to home theater and that’s cool if you’re into that. I have a lot of friends who love music but want their system to do both. Why not try out these products-

https://www.trinnov.com/en/products/altitude-sup-16-sup/

https://www.genelec.com/home-theatres

This stuff will serve you well

 

 

“They need to modernize their functionality. They have a home theater knob on the front of the box and yet the remote can’t control input selection. I believe volume can be controlled by the Remote.”

No, the volume from a HT processor/preamp can’t be controlled by the VAC. That is why it is a “BYPASS” to allow the front Main channel volume to be controlled (along with all the surround/center/atmos channels) by the processor. As for input selection on the VAC remote, there are good reasons not to have it.  Give Kevin a call to ask.

Trinnov it's a nice unit but very few people you 16 channels. If you're only using seven or eight channels which is quite a bit, this unit would seem wasteful.

Not sure all the excess bodes well for good sound.

Would be nice if Home theater processors became to chassis with the hopes of improving sound.  
 

But I spoke about like in Conrad Johnson gat2 vs vac which fall short for home theater use due to functionality limitation by not having a remote select inputs.

@audioguy85 

I never understood all the hype behind that Border Patrol DAC. Perhaps it was a system synergy thing at the time but it left me completely unimpressed. 

 

Trinnov it’s a nice unit but very few people you 16 channels. If you’re only using seven or eight channels which is quite a bit, this unit would seem wasteful.

Not sure all the excess bodes well for good sound.

Would be nice if Home theater processors became to chassis with the hopes of improving sound.

This is exactly why Theta Digital sells 4 and 6-channel DAC cards. You can go for their Xtreme or less pricey Premium cards. The Casablanca is fully upgradeable, and you don’t have to buy the latest version V. Mine started as a III HD and is now a IVa. I can upgrade to a V whenever, but I don’t feel the need to do so at this point.

 

Btw, when did you start this thread? Hmm, still no tubed pre? Yeah, just stick with an HT pre/pro with a good remote and you’re done.

Btw, when did you start this thread? Hmm, still no tubed pre? Yeah, just stick with an HT pre/pro with a good remote and you’re done

Initial post June 2021. 
Agree with your suggestion. The VAC preamplifier isn’t for him it clearly seems by now. People who buy the VAC unquestionably understand what it is and more importantly, what they want.

Charles

I have a long history of buying gear I "can't afford" ,   if I had VAC kind of $$$ I would definitely consider them.   

I always stretch my budget, I would rather save for a year or two and buy something that is over the top.   Worst thing is buyers remorse, you avoid that to some extent when you make a smart, thought out purchase.    

Buy once, cry once....

I had the chance to meet Kevin Hayes today when I visited their shop in Sarasota. I also spoke with  his tech Brent who built my amp and serviced my pre amp, quite nice fellows. Very personable to me. We talked about tubes, my gear and the fact that Kevin still to this day has a Renaissance amp in his personal system at home. He showed it to me. He showed me some old proto type amp chassis, it was fun. I had them upgrade my pre amp and will visit again in January to drop off my Amp for upgrade. He was very enthusiastic about the Mk IIIs upgrade that I plan for my Renaissance 70/70 map. So am I!

@fthompson251 

I had them upgrade my pre amp and will visit again in January to drop off my Amp for upgrade. 

What type of upgrades did they do for your preamp? 

@three_easy_payments

 

The Pre amp went from Mk II to Mk III, so it is like new now. The Amp is @ Mk II and will be Mk III Signature. Both units will be like new and I have had them both for over 20 years, they are very well built.  In this version in it's day it was a $22,000.00 amp. 

@fthompson251 

That's great and I'm sure you're enjoying.  I was curious whether there were upgrades available for my Ren Mk V.  I suspect not but I shot VAC an email.

Surely OP is enjoying his new tube preamp by now, right?

@fthompson251 Cool, the Renaissance III preamp is sweet. I especially liked its phono stage. It was very well built, with a hand wired line stage, and I vastly prefer its aesthetic over the Renaissance V. I have a friend who still pines over the 300B Renaissance power amps and tells me how great they were. But the new Master 300 amps are just stunning; they simply blow me and my 200iQ’s away 😲

But the remote doesn’t offer input selection capability so this is inappropriate for home theater use.

It’s very sad because I wanted to buy it but the family would be hard sell since the remote can’t change the inputs on it and also because it probably would be located in a separate adjoining room with the other gear.

But this company is indifferent to this modification and doesn’t wanna come into the modern age for whatever reason

 

 

Anyone changed the fuse in the Master preamp (same as others?)? Does the tray come all the way out? If not, does the fuse insert from the bottom? I changed it a couple of months ago, probably before I put it in my cabinet, but am not succeeding now and don't want to use more force until I know more. Thanks,