What are the smallest speakers that are clean and flat down to 20hz?


Also what bass driver or drivers do they use?

Thanks.
128x128mapman

Gotta be the single-panel Maggies, Wolf. But the old 3-panel Tympanis have plenty of bass, and of a very high quality There are people using the two bass panels of Tympanis as woofers, and even as subs!

QUAD ESL’s have even less bass than Maggies, but are not nearly as big.

Conversely, what are the largest speakers with little to no bass? Inquiring minds…
The smallest speaker of which I have personal experience that goes down to 20 Hz would be the Hart Audio Phoenix. It’s spec’d by the manufacturer (David Hart) as –3 dB @ 16.33 Hz. Dimensions are: 36" H x 16" W x 20" D. But each cabinet weighs 94 kg (over 200 lbs.), in part because of the great weight of the Tannoy SuperDual drivers used in the design (Type 2510 10" Dual Concentric and Type 3112 12" LF driver) and in part because the cabinets are made entirely of a fibre-impregnated resin. The bass driver is loaded into a folded horn adapted from the Tannoy GRF. Rated system sensitivity is well over 100 dB. They perform equally well with low-powered tube amps and high-powered solid-state amps. As far as I know, sold only direct from the manufacturer.
The new small bookshelf size Watkins speaker (Bill Watkins invented the dual drive woofer used by Infinity in some of their high end models back in the day) will deliver full power down to 41Hz with flat, clean, and detailed response. This utilizes a 6-1/2" custom damped woofer. More info at www.watkinsstereo.com 

Check out the Neat Audio Iota Plus speaker recently reviewed in Stereophile this month by staffer Ken Micallef. 

However, careful,...... John Atkinson, the magazine's technical guru was disappointed by their " measured performance", and Micallef's enthusiasm for the product is somewhat over the top.  The speaker should do 40Hz cleanly and without boom, according to him.  Good Luck locating a Neat Audio dealer where you can audition them.   

BTW, the speakers are a midget floor stander at 17 inches tall  (on their 1.5 inch spikes). Interesting product,  but not inexpensive   

Some towers actually play audible bass lower than some subs. Most subs will create air turbulence 18-28hz but nothing audible. Vienna beethoven go down pretty low. 25-26hz of very audible bass. I actually sold the sub after I got vienna beethovens. 
Trick Question.
Answer; there are no small speakers flat to 20 hz.
Do I get a star?

Mapman,

In Germany a chap called Matthias has been customising Ohm speakers for some years now and he does an active version of the "5000" series (with John’s approval). In Germany, this is a good idea because their Omnidirectional market is much stronger than anywhere else and the competition prices can take your breath away (German Physic, MBL etc).

Looks like John has fully embraced the idea and is scaling up. ;^)

One implication of the Fletcher-Munson curves is that the ear is quite sensitive to changes in SPL at low frequencies (recall that the curves bunch up in the bass region). Thus a 5 dB change at 40 Hz or so is subjectively comparable to a 10 dB change at 1 kHz. So a small change in SPL makes a disproportionately large change in perceived loudness in the bass region.

The ear’s sensitivity to small changes in SPL in the bass region implies that it’s pretty good at detecting the unnaturally lumpy bass that most rooms impose on speakers. Which in turn implies that we can expect significant subjective improvement from adopting an approach that smoothes out the in-room bass. While I’m an advocate of distributed multisub systems, ime improvements can show up simply from locating the bass sources in a speaker (the woofers and ports) at different distances from the room boundaries as much as is feasible.

As for fairly compact speakers that can do 20 Hz, I once loaned a pair of high-efficiency stand-mount speakers (about 1 cubic foot internal volume) to an equalizer manufacturer for an audio show. He planned to use a subwoofer system as well (not one of mine). The subwoofer crapped out the first day of the show, which would have been a disaster, but this guy was pretty resourceful. You see, my speaker had a large woofer (12") with good excursion (9 mm) and high thermal power handling (900 watts music program). So he used a powerful amp and dialed in a lot of EQ and as I recall he got ballpark 20 Hz bass after all, according to his measurements. Of course this was in a boomy hotel room, which in this case was helpful.  Now I didn't sell the speaker packaged with his equalizer so my example doesn't really count, but it does illustrate one way to get 20 Hz at useful SPL from a fairly small box: Aggressive equalization of a woofer that can handle it. 

Duke

dealer/manufacturer

Depends on what you want to spend and room size. If it were me after owning the Gamut RS7i (produces clean bass to 22hz) go take a listen to the RS3i monitors if the room is not so huge. These will shock most listeners with their authority and musical accuracy. YMMV but I am serious how good they are.
gwalt
I was impressed with folded horns think I will be getting familiar with some of my own. I was exposed to some low bass I could feel more than I could hear at times, like an invisible donkey kicking you in the chest. Up in the more practical musical hz they slam well and make beautiful coherent bass. If I had the space I would love some giant la scalas with matching folded horn bass' that reach for the ceiling.   
So bass is one of these subjects that never is settled, as most people will hear and FEEL the sound waves. Perceived bass is
all up to the individual listener to make it what it is. I'm very familiar with the Ohm speakers an "Mapman" knows and every time someone tell me they can hear below 20hz with their (insert model)
I laugh because that's kind of saying you can hear a mouse fart...sure you can, but mouse farts are very, very quiet.

As far as bass I'm using a four 18" driver infinite baffle system
that  will shake my house to the point it's scary and it can put out 120db with no effort at 20hz. My large Ohm speakers 4/5000
will comfortably crank out 25 real hertz all day long but anything below that level is negligible in a true sense and still nowhere close to what the sub can do....

peter

Does not quite meet the parameters you posted, but very impressive low frequency extension for speaker type and cabinet size. Smaller footprint then the majority of stand mounts. 

http://www.decware.com/newsite/HORN.html
Scroll down the page for specifications.

No affiliation with Decware


OP,  Demo the Kii 3s for yourself.  All of the blather will fall away and the music will fill the room.
Hey Chris (ct0517) sorry, I just saw your post asking me about Phil Collins. I missed it somehow. Anyway, I’m not that familiar with Phil's playing, though I do know he is, as am I, a lefty. I never got into Genesis (I’m not a fan of Progressive Rock in general) or his solo career, but there is no question he’s a fine player, and singer as well. He has employed drummer Chester Thompson on at least some of his solo LPs, who is himself quite an accomplished player. Their styles are not up my alley, which is that of Roger Hawkins (Muscle Shoals session player), Levon Helm (The Band), Jim Gordon (L.A. session player, Derek & The Dominoes, Traffic), and Buddy Harman (Nashville session player).
Yes, about 40 Hz should do it for most music (unless some crazy person uses real cannon in an overture)

and 3.7 Maggies will do a decent job on 40 Hz or so - and... it you think about how thin they are, maybe they are the smallest...
I’ve been considering adding subs to my second system that uses smaller limited range monitors and Rhythmik subs are the leading contender if I do. I used to use an older M&K 12" sub there that gave up the goat a couple years back.

Not much happening there below 50hz or so currently but what’s there does sound quite lovely these days indeed and my other main system covers the bases that one does not pretty well. its nice actually having two different windows into the music, one with good authorative detailed and articulate bass extension down to at least 30hz or so that one can feel as well as hear, the other just nice and clear and detailed music to hear if not so much feel.

Then there are the headphone options with these as well for yet a different way to listen but that's another story altogether.
Good one (or two ;-) Mark. Very few speaker really play flat to 20Hz cleanly, and the Rythmik F15HP (and it's smaller brother the F12) does so in a small enclosure and at a low price. The best value in high-performance subs!
Perhaps the question should be how to get low frequency that is fast enough to keep up with an 8" or 10" woofer in the main speakers. Not many available. I mean how do you make a large diaphragm move as quickly as a smaller diaphragm. Not easily done. You might move a ton of air with a long throw sub but is it clean or just double like crazy. If you walls start resonate then you are probably doubling. 

I use two Torus Infrasonic Generators. They go down to 20Hz. Two Carbon fiber 18" diaphragms. They have a large heavy core with windings above and below the diaphragm, and work in push pull. Fast like an electro static speaker. No doubling either. These are not your usual long throw drivers with heavy suspension systems that slow things down. These beauties play music. If that matters. 

Wow tostado, a piano tuner! Man, that takes a real good ear and lots of training. I worked with one pianist who wasn’t much of a player (he grew up in the era of the British Prog Bands, hence couldn’t play rhythmically to save his life) but was a competent tuner, which is what he ended up doing as a career. Surprisingly, a lot of real good guitarists had a hard time tuning before the invention of the electronic tuner. They would get each individual string close, but chords would still sound sour. The only guy I played with (R.I.P.) who was great at tuning a guitar had perfect pitch, and playing with him spoiled me for most others. Pianos, with two strings per key and many more keys than the six strings of a standard guitar, are much, much harder to tune. Twelve-string guitars are notoriously impossible to keep tuned for very long, especially the thin-necked Rickenbackers. Jim McGuinn was always out of tune on live Byrds shows!

But yeah, real low frequencies don’t sound like a "note" being played. And a lot of criticism of subwoofers sounding fat, bloated, slow, etc., is more the result of "room boom" (dimension-related resonances/standing waves), the very low frequencies the sub(s)are playing exciting the room modes/nodes that aren’t excited without the sub(s). One of the benefits of dipole woofers and subs is that they excite fewer of those room dimensions (the length not the width, if firing down the length of the room), the result being less room boom. Harry Pearson long preferred the bass panels of the Magneplanar Tympani loudspeakers (a dipole, of course) for their very taut, lean bass and midbass, in preference to omnipole dynamic cone woofers in enclosures. Some fanatics still use the Tympani panels as woofers/subs, and GR Research in conjunction with Rythmik Audio offers an Open Baffle/Dipole sub that uses a pair of 12" woofers mounted in an "H-frame". State-of-the-Art bass!

I used to think that there are no stupid questions; just stupid answers.
After reading this topic I have changed my mind:

                STUPID QUESTIONS DO EXISTS !!!
I didn't have time to read all the posts, so I don't know if the conversation evolved into something else. But to answer the original post, the Genesis 500's delivered some of the best bass I've ever had in my listening room. They looked like a Watt/Puppy, and they were about the same size. I'm assuming you are looking for a small floor standing speaker, and not a stand mount.
bdp, a 5-string electric bass will go a fourth (possibly a fifth) lower than 42 (E)--down to B or A (27.5), about the same as a standard piano.

From having recently tuned a piano I can tell you that it's really hard to discern precise frequencies down in that range.
^With those dispersion characteristics, and everything else; is the ideal surround sound speaker?
Impressive on paper.   Next we need a stereophile write up with measurements.  Has anyone heard Kii 3?
from the manual

http://www.kii.audio/phocadownload/Kii_THREE_manual_online_EN.pdf

Technical Specifications:
Compact DSP controlled monitor speaker
4x 6.5” woofer, 1x5” midrange, 1” waveguided tweeter, all individually driven
Amplification: 6x250W full-custom Ncore
Active Wave Focusing crossover filter
Frequency response: 20Hz to 25kHz +/- 0.5dB
Phase response: minimum (best possible time coherence).
Long term SPL(*): 105dB
Short term SPL(*): 110dB
Peak SPL: 115dB
Controlled Directivity: 4.8dB (80Hz - 1kHz, slowly rising thereafter)
Size: 20x40x40cm, 8”x16”x16” (WxHxD)
Weight: 15kg (33lbs)
Inputs: Analogue, AES/EBU
Selectable correction for free-standing, near wall or in corner
^interesting yes, but if I'm missing something please point it out to me; where are the specs, measurements, tolerances? Without which, I don't think they can qualify. 
Kii is interesting in that it takes a unique approach

Head/earphones don't count.
Interesting design the Kii Three

A review here - pdf download available in English.

http://kiiaudio.com/en/press.html

I found the "StudioMagazin" review a good read over coffee this morning.
from the review.

The Kii Three was designed to provide extremely deep bass from a relatively small and surprisingly lightweight cabinet. An additional objective was to create dispersion characteristics equalling those of a flush mount monitor, notwithstanding the relatively narrow baffle. The smaller the loudspeaker front, the earlier (higher in frequency) the speakers dispersion will become omnidirectional – an unwelcome property in loudspeakers that studio planners go to great lengths to avoid.

Room acoustics issues appear predominantly at low frequencies and when trying to achieve precise stereo imaging. While the latter can be optimized by comparatively simple measures, taming the low frequencies takes a much larger effort (see also our special edition Room Acoustics and Studio Design, June 2016). This is where the Kii Three comes in, creating a consistent cardioid sound field all the way down to just short of 50Hz, then gradually becoming omnidirectional below this point. With the Speaker placed close to a wall and thus at an acoustically benign boundary distance, the resulting level increase below 50Hz can easily be treated in a compensation filter.


All this complex signal processing costs the user dearly – not financially, but by introducing a latency of 90 milliseconds which would disqualify the Kii Three for any kind of real time work in the control room. To avoid this, the monitor can be set to a low latency mode by pushing a button marked “P/R“ on the back panel, reducing the latency to only a handful of DSP samples plus the DAC latency for a total value in the one millisecond range. The low latency mode replaces the highly complex low frequency filters by simplified algorithms, leaving the sonic properties of the monitor basically unchanged. The only tradeoff is reduced precision at low frequencies, but at a very reasonable magnitude with only small impact on aural evaluation.



I still maintain that this is a silly exercise for several reasons:
  • LF extension without distortion figures is kind-of meaningless
  • Most sounds below ~32Hz are from environmental noise rather than music
  • Room size and in-room response is a huge factor. It’s one thing to achieve flat response to 20Hz in a closet or Honda Civic vs. a 5,000 cu. ft. listening room
  • We have not very clearly defined "speaker". For example, the DuNu DN2000J is a lot smaller than the Triton II+ and are fairly flat down to 5Hz with low distortion. It can do this because the "room size" is only a few cubic mm.
His question stated "smallest" that plays to 20 Hz.

I’ll grant you that 48" is a tall speaker...it also has some depth but it is a narrow speaker.

Lets have some fun here: Name me a pair of speakers (no subs allowed) that play to 20 Hz that are smaller than Triton Two+. Bonus if they go to 16.

We'll use area (LxWxH) as the "smallest" deciding factor.
Triton 2 at 48 inch tall is getting rather large for a "small speaker". I am sure most here could list hundreds of full range speakers of that size.

Of course there is always the *quality* of the bass to be considered. It's not simply a question of frequency response.
Goldenear Triton Two+.  Plays flat to 16 Hz.  Smallest speaker I've seen that goes that low.  Two powered oval drivers and 4 passive radiators I believe.
I asked for the smallest that could do it. Nothing impossible about that since some clearly can and do just a matter of how small that can be.

shadornes Barefoot recommendation was a good shot.   On paper clearly  a lot of bang in a smaller package if not quite able to hit the 20hz mark.  
My take is that Noble100 (Tim)  is the "smartest man in the village" with educated insight.  I look to see more of his posts.  If the penchant of the OP is excellent bass response in a small speaker, I will offer two alternatives:  Joseph Audio Pulsars or Dynaudio C1 speakers... pretty flat down to the low 40 hz realm.  I recall hearing the Pulsars at an audio show driven by a Rogers tube amp (!) and the bass response from these stand mount speakers was astounding, with gut-wrenching bass response.  Ditto for Dyn's.  The JA Pearls go down to 25 hz, but are +$20K and are hulkingly large speakers.

As Tim cogently informs us, your goals of having smallish speakers with the bass response that is your goal defies the laws of physics.  I personally would not need a subwoofer for the Pulsars or C1's in a modestly-sized room as I am a lover of sublime mid-range response, but the addition of one or two REL subs to a pair of fine stand mount speakers will fulfill your needs very nicely, but still get you response only to the mid 30s hz.   I use a REL T-7 with my Spatial Audio M4 Holograms and it rounds out the LF response extremely well.  

Bdp24 (Eric)

So ......as a drummer..... what is your opinion of Phil Collins? 
had to ask !  

Cheers Chris

The lowest frequencies produced by almost all musical instruments are not as low as commonly believed. For instance, whilst 28Hz was above stated as being produced by an upright bass, that instrument's lowest note---the E string played "open", is actually located at 42Hz. The 4-string electric bass (often incorrectly called a bass guitar, even by John Atkinson, who should know better) produces that same note and frequency as it's lowest.

There are a few instruments which produce frequencies lower than 42Hz, including pipe organ, grand piano, and contra bassoon. Some recordings made in very large spaces---cathedrals, concert halls---contain the very low frequencies those rooms support. The ability to reproduce those very low frequency "room sounds" is one of the benefits of good subwoofers. A good recording of a pipe organ played in a cathedral will contain the "shuddering" sound that combination produces. It is an enormous, massive, thrilling sound!