What do audiophiles want from a cable?
hifiman5 286 posts 10-29-2016 4:17pm @geoffkait Might your electrons need testing for ADD/ADHD?? For gods’ sake man organize your electrons. Look at what’s going on at the quantum level here. Is this reality or are all of us really in the Matrix? Thnx for pointing that out as I forgot to mention - you know that electromagnetic wave I mentioned, the one that’s the audio signal? It’s not electrons, it’s photons. ;-) Cheers |
jmcgrogan25,498 posts10-29-2016 10:15pmHello David,Hi John, i’m well thanks. I recently came back from holiday, so I need to do some cleaning up after my break in the next week. I’m aiming to get a basic setup in the next 2 wks & do some solid run in for about 3 wks, before taking up an offer from my Dealer’s room setup consultant to run some room sweeps, get a final setup & spike my speakers. It’s been a helluva year, but i’m now starting to put myself first again! |
Good morning Mr. Kait, Good point. So we should be describing how various signal transmission products handle the electromagnetic wave. I will buy that. Perhaps that is why some of the latest higher-technology cable/powercord/power treatment products have moved in this direction (EM cells (SR) and magnetic enhancement (HF), for example) and away from massive windings of large-gauge conductors long thought to be indicative of a superior conductive interface? Best to you geoffkait, Dave |
hifiman5 285 posts 10-28-2016 7:48pm "My guess is that audiophiles see cables as similar to water hoses, and the goal is to increase the flow and remove the constriction. That’s at odds with reality, since we’re not dealing with electrons flowing into preamps, amps or speakers." I hope the above is a typo! If its not electrons flowing along the cables into our components and speakers then what is it? Little fairies? ............................ sorry to put a damper on the water hose theory of cables but electrons move at a rate of only a few centimeters per minute, in AC circuits they move to and fro, with net zero gain. The audio signal itself, you know, the electromagnetic wave, on the other hand, travels at near light speed. |
I use Jorma Prime and Statement cables in my $200k system which sound natural, smooth/liquid, slightly warm (Prime) to neutral (Statement), harmonically rich & sophisticated. They also have excellent resolution and sound staging without ever sounding analytical or edgy. They nail the midrange. Highly recommended cables! |
"My guess is that audiophiles see cables as similar to water hoses, and the goal is to increase the flow and remove the constriction. That's at odds with reality, since we're not dealing with electrons flowing into preamps, amps or speakers." I hope the above is a typo! If its not electrons flowing along the cables into our components and speakers then what is it? Little fairies? |
My guess is that audiophiles see cables as similar to water hoses, and the goal is to increase the flow and remove the constriction. That's at odds with reality, since we're not dealing with electrons flowing into preamps, amps or speakers. But anything that creates such an illusion can often find a market, and often command amazing markups over cost to produce. |
OP, In response to your original question, I am not going to say whether a cable should make your system warm or cold or clinical anything else. If anything, it should make your system more musical and make you want to listen to more music. I heard a big difference in my system when I changed from my previous speaker cable to the current speaker cables. My system needs all the gain that can be extracted to the last iota. I do not know why, but I GOT this gain in my system and it sounded fabulous. I can explain the FIRST time I experienced a gain - it was because I moved from RCA to XLRs. But the SECOD gain was by simply by changing the loudspeaker cables - and that too surprisingly from bi-wiring to single wire + jumpers. Whatever happened - my system is more musical now than what it was before. I think YOU should listen to the system in which the new cables re introduced. The reviews are just to get you started. There is a 100% chance that you will completely disagree with the reviewers - both professionals and regular users. |
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Assuming all the same level, whether speaker cables or interconnects give bigger difference cannot be answered generally. Of the interconnects, it is usually the very first one that is most important. In my system that's the tonarm cable that goes from the cartridge to the phono stage. But in any case, I believe that speaker cables should be viewed as one element of the amp/speaker cables/speakers unit. On the other hand, the entire cable chain including speaker cables is a unit too. So, I think if you want the highest performance it does get complicated. Except for power cords I try to follow one brand approach but not one model approach. |
"...I have tested these things for decades and cables are about the last thing to do (usually); interconnects would come after speaker cables" "FWIW, I have Kimber on my speakers - and I got them at a very large discount - I consider having them bi-amped to be more important" Randy, we learn only two things from all of the posts you have made: 1) You are an objectivist and an extremely slow learner. 2) Your simple single reply to the OP’s question, "What do audiophiles want from a cable?", could have graciously been, "Whatever is most heavily discounted". No insult or disrespect is intended to my friend Ray Kimber nor to his fine cable products. Best to you Randy, Dave |
goldenera, see my long post above, but in brief... 1. are the differences real? - use a double-blind test to see (I've done this with turntables and there are differences for sure) 2. were the differences caused by re-connection or by the cable itself? - again, do a test - the connection might have had some corrosion on it 3. are the differences really improvements? 4. if yes, to all above, then are the improvements cost-effective relative to things that are known to matter greatly (such as speaker freq. response; room treatments; phase delay, etc.) in sum, I have tested these things for decades and cables are about the last thing to do (usually); interconnects would come after speaker cables FWIW, I have Kimber on my speakers - and I got them at a very large discount - I consider having them bi-amped to be more important |
I,like many others on this forum believe that cables should be looked upon as you would any other component in your system. I wish I didn't hear differences in cables because I would have saved a lot of money in the changes i've made and no one wants to have un-necessary expenditures. So this post is for the argumentative naysayers out there. I agree that you haven't heard differences in cables but have you ever asked yourself why you haven't ?? With so many knowledgable posters stating the importance of using the correct cable in their system. Have you ever thought ,what is preventing you from hearing a difference. I'm sure we all have auditioned various components at a dealers showroom and either purchased or had a home audition of the component that we thought was great (we do use this word much to much) only to find this great component doesn't thrill you as it did in the showroom.Now why would that be ? Interaction with the room ? not compatible with your associated equipment or maybe its the cables that was used at the showroom which you refuse to admit might make the difference. So if you are happy with your system,wonderful. I do wonder why you argue that if you don't hear it then nobody can hear it Enjoy |
In fact, you never know how good your active components might be until you give them a great connection. I had no idea that even finely aligned and tuned Nak deck could sound that good until I put the Purist Neptune fluid cable on it. Some say that vintage equipment usually reacts less to cables. Well, I don't have enough experience to voice an opinion, but in my system I would say that the deck, the phono stage and the cd player responded just about equally. But, for already quite warm system Purist's Venustas or of course Dominus, both Luminist Revision, would probably be a better choice overall, though with at least the Venustas you would lose some of the Neptune's incredible soundstage and natural flow. Anyway, now that I got that cable I want even more than before to upgrade the active components it connects, which is unfair to them - they sound better than ever. |
Thanks John, always good to hear your thoughts on cables and gear. You've been a good guide for me(and others I'm sure) in the search for audio satisfaction over the years. It doesn't surprise me that you have used the AZ Absolute cables as well! Lol. I'll do my best to tell you what I think of the AZ Satori after these thick, heavy, meaty bastards burn in. You know, this forum can be a very valuable resource for all types of audio enthusiasts and music lovers. These cable threads always draw a troll or two, but we the people will go on! We will always hurdle the trolls and side step the whiny dribble and angry droppings they leave behind. Sweeeewwwww. |
Hey what did you think of the Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable John?? Hi Adam, I liked the Satori Shotgun cables, a good value cable. Reminds me a bit of the Purist Audio sound, full, warm, musical, great 3-D sound-stage, only less expensive. For my tastes it is a bit too warm though. I prefer the AZ Absolute, still has powerful bass and large sound-stage, but offers a bit more resolution. Let me know what you think of them. Cheers, John |
randy-11, Audiodom already has enough audio cheapskates. Amen dlcockrum. Love it r andy-11 comes from a long line of internet trolls. His father and grandfather were internet trolls. In fact randy-11 is the 5th generation of internet trolls in his family.@jmcgrogan2 , this family is reproducing at an alarming rate and Randy must be like 6-7 years old. He's a young troll, he's got many years of trolling ahead. Hey, speaking of trolling, I'm going to Fontana Lake to catch some smallmouth. I'll return to this madness on Monday, I'm sure I can't resist. Hey what did you think of the Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cable John?? I'm very interested to hear your and anyone else's impressions of Satori as I just picked up a pair! |
Years from now, you will re-read your posts and regret. No he won't Dave. I know folks like randy-11, who derive such pleasure in life by bringing irritation to others. The more aggravated you get, the more enjoyment they get out of life. They are the pebble in the sandal of life. randy-11 comes from a long line of internet trolls. His father and grandfather were internet trolls. In fact randy-11 is the 5th generation of internet trolls in his family. One day randy-11 hopes to pass these well learned skills down to his children and grandchildren. randy-11, I know you are but what am I? Great argument dude, thanks for stopping by. Don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you on the way out. |
randy-11, Audiodom already has enough audio cheapskates. Your points of view have been more than thoroughly exhausted by droves of others before you. Those of us that have been around more than 10 minutes have read and heard it all. You are posting such things all over Audiogon. Give it a rest. Years from now, you will re-read your posts and regret. Best to you randy-11, Dave |
Randy11 wrote, For example, you see a couple of people above making bold claims, but they cannot back it up with ANY real listening tests. Post the methodology in your own double-blind tests. Or just tell us what volume of JAES or other engineering or scientific journal the test appeared in. gosh, you mean audio Journals, AES, JAES or whoever, actually think there are audible differences among cables? WOW, they’ve really gotten progressive. |
"If you ...won't consider the importance of the cables that transmit the audio signal from component to component I guess you don't experience a difference with the quality of tires that connect your car to the road." The above is a really bad analogy and suggests that the poster is ignorant of both audio engineering and mechanical engineering But it is wrong in a more fundamental sense as well. It isn't that some "won't consider" it is that in science the affirmative has the burden of proof. For example, you see a couple of people above making bold claims, but they cannot back it up with ANY real listening tests. Post the methodology in your own double-blind tests. Or just tell us what volume of JAES or other engineering or scientific journal the test appeared in. Also, show where you disconnected and reconnected existing cables to eliminate the effects of removing any corrosion on those connections from your experiment. Last, we would need to see that any real differences are, in fact, improvements and not simply the result of confirmation bias. |
There are many 'audiophiles' who can't hear well. Some of them know it but won't say it in public, some don't know. There are also people who can't afford good stuff including cables, so some of them will devalue what is valuable but out of reach not to get upset too much. Then there are imbeciles, plain and simple, undeveloped folks. Whatever it is, arguing would serve no purpose. Those in the know know that cables make big difference, and great cables are always expensive. And they have the right to be. |
If you're an engaged audiophile and have experimented with your system to explore possible improvements to the sound and have not at least investigated the cable issue you may be missing out. Sad. As several have correctly posted here, there are very cost effective high performing brands as there are the more expensive spreads. Do what fits your audio budget. If you are a cable denier and won't consider the importance of the cables that transmit the audio signal from component to component I guess you don't experience a difference with the quality of tires that connect your car to the road. Really?? |
In my opinions cables are an essential ingredient in the thrill of realism in music reproduction. My cables including pcs, now represent at least half of the cost of my system. I really don't know where I might further improve my sound, but after the last four years, I cannot say where to try something new. And I should say that at my age I really hope I don't find one. On double blind listening tastes, I have multiple times participated in them and think they are a complete waste of time as the mind is engaged in a completely different task during them than when we are relaxed and enjoying music. Psychologists using 30 second same or different judgments are wasting their time. It is an invalid measure. |
