What exactly is PRaT???

@tunehead Provides the only realistic answer. Dirk and Lerxst approved.

I do not see his post.

@audition__audio And subjectivity is just stupid when it comes to music, right?

Dancing is very important to people who play music with a beat. I think that people who don't dance, or who never did dance, don't really understand the beat... I know musicians who don't and never did dance, and they have difficulty communicating.

Robert Harley’s book Complete Guide to High end audio page 56 Prat means Pace Rhythm and Timing.according to Harley How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it. And if you find yourself wanting to dance the component probably has it.

The book also mentioned Rhythm and pace are more important in rock , jazz, blues , pop , and other form of music than in classical.

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  You and I are clearly on different planets when it comes to sound.  If you don’t understand what imaging and 3D soundstage are then you have compromised hearing and/or a compromised system not capable of producing it.  I’m guessing you have your Klipsch or Bose speakers stapled to the wall to not understand imaging or soundstage.  But, I don’t get PRaT so that’s maybe my hearing deficiency.  To each his own I guess, and that’s what makes the audio world go ’round.  

Oh, I think we're probably more on the same page than not.  I didn't say I don't *understand* 3D imaging or soundstage.  I asked for definitions.  Those definitions would have to include the word "illusion," which is what they are, illusions.  But they are definitely real phenomena.  By the same token, I believe that certain equipment affects our perception of pace, timing and rhythm in a way that is also an illusion, but is also a genuine phenomenon.

@dogearedaudio Yeah, I agree timing, pace, and rhythm, whatever that is is important and significant, but I just don’t get or sense it. When you can “see” the three dimensional images of musicians performing in a 3D space I get that. That they’re somehow behind the beat, no, I don’t get that cause the music was recorded the way it was recorded. I just don’t get what a “slow” system sounds like. But I know Linn can’t make speakers I like because they sound like shite and nasally and I can hear it 10 yards out the door. They might do PRaT but they don’t do tone or soudstaging in any realm IMHO. ,

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that we’re arguing over PRaT. 

Look if you can’t grok what PRaT is then maybe consider your room and how it’s messing up what you think is the sound of your amazing system. 

Speakers from Joseph Audio, Magico, Audio Physic, Vandersteen, Totem, Marten, Thiel, get imaging and soundstage.  Simple in your face speakers like JBL or Klipsch speakers, not so much.  They are in your face and can’t capture the beauty and Grace of better recordings.  They do what they do.  They’re in your face hit you with slam speakers and good on them for what they do.  But they’re just rock n roll speakers for head bangers cause that’s what they do and they’re limited and can’t do the finer points of music.  They just can’t.  They ain’t built that way, and that’s ok for people who want that “sound.” 

Perhaps it should be "Pulse, Rhythm and Timing." I have often wondered whether musical timing is governed however subtly by the heart rate of the musician which must vary according to the demands the music is making on the performer and the demands the performer is making on the music. The heart can be likened to a metronome residing in the chest, and its interaction with music making could be creating a very subtle poly-rhythm in the musical performance that sometimes urges the musician into altered and sublime states that are both familiar and novel at the same time and which strike the listeners the same way.

Effect of Music On the Cardiovacular System

@soix

Paul McGowan: "What is PRaT and do the British do it Better?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGgMpX3XII

FWIW, he says, regarding pace, rhythm and timing, "I think it’s one of those things that, if you haven’t ever experienced them, it’s hard to describe". He asserts that, although PRaT is not a top priority for him, he's found it can and does vary, depending upon the gear used.

This is my experience as well, although I’m in no way suggesting I’m in a remotely similar category when it comes to experience/knowledge as P. M.

To me, it’s best described as a "propulsive quality" that cannot be defined solely in terms of BPM. Scientifically, this sounds ridiculous but for some of us, at least, it’s palpable. Perhaps there’s an as-yet-unexplored physiological aspect to this that comes into play.

PRaT, propulsion and speed overlap so much as to render a venn diagram a fuzzy circle. Can't have one without the other two (to some degree) if you want realism. It's part of the completion of the illusion of realism. 

Until my present system, I never quite got there. I've said before that it must be partially due to serendipity as it all came together so quickly and so convincingly. People I've had over all had the same reaction: "this is one fast system". One even said it twice in the space of a minute with a shocked look on his face. 

It wasn't until my present system that I caught myself swinging my foot or leg for long periods of time and not getting fatigued by it. The body motions and the tempo of the music were as one, varying as the timing changed. I was bemused by it and yet enjoyed it to no end. Maybe it's why I just stopped looking for anything else, and find myself, at times, bemused by some of the responses on these threads. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@bolong

There’s a long-standing discussion in the classical world concerning famous conductors who "slowed down" as they aged, some rather drastically, and whether this was related to cardiovascular health. Otto Klemperer was a notable example. In his younger years he adopted brisk tempos and a rather fierce attack, and but in old age his recordings took on a stately (some would say sluggish) and monolithic character.  

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis. Music, stand-up comedy, the stage, film, writing--success in these crafts is largely defined by these three simple but discrete elements.

@dogearedaudio +1. Alec Guinness, Anthony Hopkins IMHO made you want to listen to them and convincing because of the way they used Prat to express their lines.

How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it.

@jayctoy You don’t listen to it like detail imaging etc. You feel it.

Didn't someone say music is comprised of 2 things, rhythm and melody?

Some get it,

Some don't,

All the best,
Nonoise

"this is one fast system".

@nonoise  care to share what it is?

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?  

@cdc , Sure, I've mentioned it before so it's not like it's some secret. 

My integrated is the Technics SU-G700M2 with the matching  SL-G700 SACD player. My speakers are the Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors w/matching stands. My cabling consists of Darwin Audio speaker cables and interconnects and the power cords are a mix of TWL and Zu Audio with a Audioquest Niagara 1200 power and conditioner/surge protector. I also use IsoAcoustic Oreas under the integrated and SACD player and I have an old Marantz ST6000 tuner that is now quite satisfying to listen to thanks to the aforementioned. 

As usual, YMMV but for me, I'm quite content until I win the lottery and dig deeper for the bigger Atalante 5 speakers to use in a bigger, dedicated place. Hope that helps to point the way or at least give an idea of what can work.

All the best,
Nonoise

PRaT...a newish ’buzz’ acronym to kick about ’n argue about.... ;)

I'm annoyed....deal...:(

....the Kimmel version has some serious bass... 

...theme for the next 4+ years. Yes

@soix 

"Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?"

You already asked me that and I answered you.