On the same issue ... What would a twenty-dollar gold piece buy you in 1930, and what would a twenty-dollar gold piece buy you today? Here's a classic essay by past Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan written in 1966:
https://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm
Frank |
That’s really a good debate.
the argument of older is better, comes when it’s time to re-furbish.
Circuitry wise, not all new is better, or, that there is not much that is actually new in the world of circuitry.
It’s almost like we are claiming new circuits in the hype end of promoting the new... when all we’ve really got is like going from a brand’s 20 year old scotch to the same brand’s 25 year old scotch.
Except in the case of a circuit refinement, this new refinement can be swamped by other differences in the gear, like parts quality not being up to snuff compared to the older item of the circuit layout, or the intelligence of the designer and maker of the older gear, being superior to the guy/item with the new circuit refinement in hand.
All of this is so complex that it is many times impossible to say that the new is better than the old.
The question becomes attached to the need to re-cap the older item, as capacitors wear. The next is that contacts on switches degrade due to oxidization. The next is that some (not many) transistors get noisier or degrade over time in a noticeable way. Or some oft used (in a lot of older gear) small signal diodes that are prone to failure--but after 40 years, so the diodes can be forgiven.
If we upgrade the older gear in a competent fashion (intelligent capable high audio oriented technician has a hand in it), then there is every reason to believe that the ’right’ choice in older gear can compete with the new.
One of my games it to take older gear and revamp it with crazy levels of parts quality upgrades.
Like taking a NAD 3020 and upgrading the circuity design (to eliminate some of the budget aspects and issues), and the parts quality to something akin to a $6-7-10k integrated (and better!), and then going beyond the current levels of high end chassis isolation, and so on. Ie, some of the mods are not seen even in the $10k integrated. As not everyone has the same level of knowledge or skills, in their builds.
Then I can show the simple and innocent looking NAD 3020 to people and have it fight on even ground with those $5-7-10k integrated. Albeit with low power-- but still.
If it is about the sound quality we enjoy 99% of the time and forget about those few moments of high power use.... then it’s a major win.
I do these sorts of things to show people where all that is extant as new and modern, is not always a form of progress. That we and others can be and are a victim of the projections of ourselves and how we sit within our moments of time - on the stage of life of the now.
Eg, one time I opened up a loudspeaker from the 60’s (one that shall remain nameless!) and found some bracing techniques that exceeded in intelligence, effectiveness and application...all that is in high end audio speakers in 2019 (to my knowledge, which I consider to be fairly extensive). Then the issue where I’m not sure everyone opening up that older speaker would even have what it takes to understand what they were looking at.
That the intellectual heights of thinking in the past ...can be as valuable to the person of today as the thinking of today..where progress can many times be an ignorant egocentric illusion. Scrape any human of today hard enough and you will find the ancient animal of the core reacting as blindly and as as violently as it did 50,000 years ago. Which helps illustrate that the wisdom of the past can be as valuable today as it was back then.
The same goes for the pinnacles of design in audio circuitry and build... from 30-40-60-etc years ago.
Conversely, nor can it ever be that history reveals all - and dictates the future. Brains and open progressive awareness (intelligence and mindfulness) are required in order to be an efficient navigator of the now.
Eg, rebuild lets say (mentioned just cuz I saw one yesterday)... a Pioneer a-27, with some intelligence and capability applied in the rebuild..well..there is no reason it can’t compete on equal ground with today’s $4-5-10k integrated.
But it would have to be a fairly well rounded out skilled tech to make that happen, but it can get +90% of the way there to the modern retail $10k quality range, just from upgrading the unit with basic audiophile technical intelligence.
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ok erik i will give it a try-but i am going over budget a little bit.
1980
Accuphase E202 integrated amp 100 wpc = $600 ?
Thiel CS1 speakers = $1000
Technics SL 1700 Mk2 = $350
Total $1950.00
2019
Belles Aria integrated amp 75wpc = $2300
Spatial M5 Sapphire speakers - $ 2950
Bluesound Node 2i = $550
Total $ 5800 |
I didn't mean to suggest a budget, but sure!
I meant like, say you buy a $5k pair of speakers today, but trying to build a whole system in that budget is not a bad idea either.
Does anyone thing we are buying gear that is equal to, or better than we were in 1980's? That is, at $5k are we getting the same than we were at $1600?
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The theory is basically the same but the implementation is much better now. I am not an economist so I don't know enough of inflation (except that it goes higher and higher), but the quality of equipment is "much" better now. Such examples as capacitors, cables, digital technology, DAC's are all superior vs. back in the 1980's.
Is $5000 better than $1600? It depends I think. A $5000 refrigerator today probably does not have the same value as a $1600
refrigerator
back in the 1980's, but a $5000 DAC today is much superior than a $1600 DAC in 1980's.
In general, things that can be outsourced tend to be "cheaper" today. Conversely things that cannot be outsourced, they tend to get more "expensive". For example, a trip to get your car repaired probably costs quite a bit more vs. back in the 1980's.
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I am not an economist so I don’t know enough of inflation (except that it goes higher and higher), but the quality of equipment is "much" better now.
Right. The answer is simple and staring you right in the face every time you open your wallet. But we’re all so conditioned to believe the lie we won’t believe the truth even when clearly explained. Hold my beer and watch this: Printed right on the green bills in there are the words Federal Reserve Note. A note is a loan. You could look it up. Its an IOU. That’s why if you go on-line or to a coin shop and look up our old currency, it used to say things like "payable to the bearer on demand in gold" or silver, or "there exists in the vaults gold..." in other words the paper was a claim on physical money (gold and silver) and the further back you go the more explicit and clear this was. Printed right on the note. As a matter of fact if you go back to 1776 the Constitution defines money as gold and silver coin, and gives congress the authority to regulate its fineness. You don’t regulate the "fineness" of a paper Federal Reserve Note. FRNs you "print" like this: Ctrl+P. Yeah. Because its so far removed from money its not even paper, its digits. On a screen. This becomes relevant real fast when you go look up the price of things like corn. Going back to the 1600’s when the only money was silver and gold coin the price of a bushel of corn was the same all the way from the Pilgrims to the Civil War. Oh there were blips. But DYODD. Look it up. The blips were all brief and mostly due to.... wars. They’d print paper money to pay the troops to fight the wars. Sound familiar? Only now the wars go on forever. Human beings however are really clever. Someone makes something better they make a nice profit. Better, or cheaper. Or both. The profit motive is strong as can be and so someone somewhere is always striving to make a buck by making something cheaper and better. Economists call this productivity. Productivity is always going up. Computers sent it rocketing up crazy fast. Everything should be so much better today no one would even think for a second to ask Eric’s question. It would be so obvious. The reason its not is because we’ve all been deluded into thinking of the USD as a sound basis for measuring over time. Day to day, fine. But over the years? Has it somehow escaped your attention we used to measure dollars in thousands, now its trillions? Going on quadrillions? How on Earth is that a stable measure? Meanwhile, another simple exercise, instead of dollars go look at the price of things in ounces of gold. Or silver. The gallon of gas that used to be a dime STILL IS- IF you sell your SILVER dime for FRNs. The best mens $50 suit STILL IS but only if paid in the same ounce of gold, now $1500 when priced in FRNs. You can do this with all kinds of things. OF COURSE your dollar buys a lot more today. Your DOLLAR. NOT your Federal Reserve Note. |
millercarbon ...
That was truly excellent. Thank you for posting it. The term "dollar" is a term of measurement, not unlike the terms "pint" "quart" or "gallon." So, when we ask someone how much they want for a certain product, and the response is: "ten dollars," the retort should be: "ten 'dollars' of what?" Americans used to know that "ten 'dollars' of what?" ... meant ten "dollars" worth of either gold or silver. The hidden secret is that with precious metals as a basis for money, it is impossible to build a welfare state. In order to create an additional "dollar" under a metal system, another "dollar's" worth of metal must be dug out of the ground. That applies the worth of labor to the "dollar." Under a fiat (paper) money system, the government can print at will to support all kinds of nefarious things ... like unending political wars for example. The benefit of a fiat money system is that it empowers those in control at the present time. The ultimate price of a fiat money system is huge debts that must be paid by future generations. At the present time, the national debt stands at 23 trillion dollars, and the unfunded liabilities stand at over 200 trillion dollars. Gold/silver is the currency of free men. Paper is the money of economic slaves. Here's a good start for anyone interested in the subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Ron-Paul-Money-Book-Congressman/dp/B000M0R36M
Frank |
Anyone who reads Ron Paul will be shocked to discover the crotchety old geezer has a deep well grounded knowledge of our constitutional republic and monetary system. Turns out there’s a reason they make him look on TV like a yammering old crank- he’s talking point blank about tyranny and liberty and how they institute the one while making us think we’ve got the other. The Federal Reserve Bank is neither federal (its privately owned) nor holds any reserves (its all paper certificates) and isn’t even a bank but a clever way of bailing out banks. It was the third US central bank, the first two having failed so disastrously no one would have supported another. But we were tricked into it. The fascinating story is told: https://www.chinhnghia.com/The-Creature-from-Jekyll-Island-by-G.-Edward-Griffin.pdfEdwin Vieira is a constitutional scholar and attorney who has argued AND WON cases before the Supreme Court. His magnum opus on money- https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Eight-Disabilities-Constitution-Foundation/dp/0967175917These are the anti-dotes to the brainwashing we call education, so effective I came out of college with a business degree and knew all about stocks and bonds and yet somehow mysteriously never a word about silver and gold. A whole four year degree built around the uses of money without ever a word about what money actually is. Now I know why. With sound money, money with actual intrinsic value that cannot be created from nothing, all the power is with the people. We would find better and more efficient uses, everything would be cheaper and better and more, and questions like Eric asked, the answers self-evident. As it is we still manage to have improvements with technologies like Synergistic and Tekton use, a whole bunch of things that never even existed 50 years ago and make music sound better than ever. B&O developed a moving iron cartridge, Soundsmith developed it to perform light years better. And the only reason its Hyperion is $8k instead of $80 is our bogus unit of measure. |
Based on how much we have deviated from discussion of audio, I must conclude that I am correct in all of the points below: - Class D is the only high end audio amplifier topology left.
- Power cables don't matter
- Speaker driver counts should be a prime number.
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A silver dime is worth about a bit less than $1.50 (90% silver and 10% copper). Silver is trading in the range of $13 - $15 an ounce. And yes, things were a lot more affordable 40 - 50 years ago! Though wages were comparably lower. |
How many here remember when gasoline was .27 a gallon? |
- How many here remember when gasoline was .27 a gallon?
I do for sure. I had the car ... a 1949 Mercury coupe. Saturday night I, and three buddies would each chip in twenty-five cents apiece and buy four gallons of gas. That was enough for us to cruise Sunset and Hollywood Boulevards and cruise Tiny Naylor's drive-in for the weekend. :-) That was a completely different world from today, guys. Frank |
The title of the thread is: What is $5,000 worth today, and is it better than 1,600 in the 80's? Dozen relevant posts on precisely that topic later Eric says:
Based on how much we have deviated from discussion of audio
Does the OP even know what he OP'd? Synergistic Research CTS speaker cable came out in 2004, +/- a year or so. It cost about $7k back then. It used Active Shielding. Today 15 years later Synergistic Atmosphere Level 4 runs about $5k. It doesn't need Active Shielding. It can be grounded, but even without it still easily outperforms CTS. For less money. Even before accounting for the depreciation in the value of the money, its pretty clear you can get more for your audio dollar today. Not everything is the same. I been saying for years Synergistic is ahead of the game. But they are far from alone. You do still have to search, study, filter, and keep your focus on the job at hand. If you go all scatter brained forgetting what's going on, that's another story altogether. |
For what it’s worth my speakers are Quad ESL-57s fully rebuilt by Wayne Pickard in Florida. While not going much below 40 hz and being rather directional, they have a nuanced presence and, for me, transparency I haven’t heard elsewhere. Though I am on the periphery in Vermont. But Trying out a Pass INT-25 (way out for me) it was like having Ella Fitzgerald and Louie Armstrong in my living room last night. My wife came in and sat down smiling and tapping her toes.
A mix of old and new, but so satisfying. Smiles and goosebumps. What a pleasure. |
Given the advances in audio tech, I would be surprised if you had to spend much more than $2000 to equal the 1980 $1600 system. Not necessarily in size and number of components but for sound quality. The caveat is that if your into vinyl it’s another story as decent turntables have gotten a lot pricier. As far as the gold bug discussion, it’s conspiracy theory. The values of gold and silver have no relationship to their utility. If the world economies all collapsed a box of .22 shells or a can of soup would be worth more than an ounce of gold. It’s almost as arbitrary as paper currency and harder to carry around. Currencies don’t have intrinsic value and gold or silver don’t really have much either. They are a method of exchanging what I can do for what someone else or a group of people can do without having to negotiate a complex series of barters every time I need a screw, a banana, or a bag of beans. Controlling the money supply with excavators is just as nonsensical as controlling it with server farms "mining" for make believe coins that only exist in computers. I have heard just about every moral ill of the modern world blamed on fiat currency. MEGO. |
“Based on how much we have deviated from discussion of audio, I must conclude that I am correct in all of the points below: - Class D is the only high end audio amplifier topology left.
- Power cables don’t matter
- Speaker driver counts should be a prime number”.
Erik...hate to break it you but all of above can only be taken as your opinions not facts. How did you go from what is worth $5k today to above conclusions? IME, - All Class D amps I’ve listened and compared so far still sound dry and unmusical. The only exception would be GaN Tube Class D based amps. For you to conclude Class D as only high end amplifier topology is clearly driven by your methodology of price to performance ratio. A class D amp made from off the shelf parts is hardly qualifies as ‘high end topology’. Let’s give credit where it’s due, they are best suited for Home Theater applications only. - Power cables as well as signal cables in any two channel audio system matters. I don’t want to start another war on this subject. So whatever floats your boat, a lamp cord from Home Depot or a DIY cable from parts connexion ...let’s leave it at that. - Speaker driver counts, again there are no absolutes here. It all depends on speaker design. I have used speakers with multiple drivers as well as single driver. It just comes down to personal preferences and one’s budget. |
Thank you rwortman. I could not have said it better.
millercarbon, the only reason wars last longer is because we have become more concerned about "innocent" bystanders. In WWII we just blew up everything. |
You said it rwortman, tin foil hat fiat currency nonsense is about as rational as putting magic mats in your breaker box for electric conservation or better sound stage or some such lunacy. |
And yes, in general equipment is much better today than it was in 1980 and collecting music is way better including vinyl. I also think in general mastering has improved. So, overall we are in much better shape and I think get more value for what we spend until you get to the "luxury audio"
stuff. I don't even wish I had the money. Most of it I would not buy if I did. |
Equipment is all about fun. Infinity ... |
1980 -- $1,600.00 vs 2019 -- $5,000.00.
What I would've bought then vs What I would buy today?
1984 System....
. Vandersteen 2C Speaker System -- $650.00
. Yamaha A-1000 Integrated Amplifier (120 WPC @ 8 Ohms) -- $600.00
. Technics SL-1800 MkII Turntable -- $380.00
Price: $1,630.00 + Phono Cartridge (About $2,000.00 Total (1984))
2019 System (Today)*....
. Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Speaker System -- $1,600.00 (Pre Owned)
. Cambridge Audio AZUR 851A Integrated Amplifier/DAC (120 WPC @ 8 Ohms/200 WPC @ 4 Ohms) -- $1,500.00
. PS Audio GCPH Phono Preamplifier -- $500.00 (Used)
. Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (Black) -- $600.00
. Nagaoka PM-200 Phono Cartridge -- $400.00
. BlueSound NODE 2i Music Streamer -- $550.00
* = If I had the money....
Price: $5,150.00 + Digital, Interconnect, and Speaker Cables (About $6,500.00 Total (2019))
--Charles-- |
That would depend on the gear in question.
How much I enjoyed the make up of the gear in question plays a huge in it all.
The feature set, and the sound quality of it also play an important part.
If I paid about $1,600.00 to about $2,500.00 for an amplifier back in 1984, it was probably a SOTA piece back then (or pretty damn close to it), and enjoyed the performance and the sound quality of it back then, then about 35-40 years later, then more than likely, it’s going to have some sentimental value to me, and that being the case, I’m more than likely going to have it redone and recapped, that many years later, though I will still enjoy it immensely, it will no longer be considered SOTA.
If liked a piece of gear which I paid WAY MUCH less than that, then even though I may or may not keep it. How sentimental it is to me is going to be a factor as well.
More than likely, I may eventually either part ways with it and give it away?
Or I may decide to keep it, but I will either put it in a secondary system, or I may put it in retirement all to and just use it occasionally then.
It won’t be a full time piece anymore, that’s for sure.
—Charles—
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