Askat, How long before the VRS II comes out and what will the price be? You obviously have inside knowledge about the innerworkings of both the VRS and the Memory player. My question is whether the Memory Player is overpriced because it is the first of its kind sold to the public. My fear has been that you will be able to have this same performance for 20% of the price in a year. Bob |
Maybe 30%, the trickledown theory after the initial dust has settled, someone will definately take the lid off to see what makes them tick.
Computer and Pro-Audio entering the forefront of our highend two-channel systems, I used to laugh at it, not anymore.
The obvious difference between these two units seems to be the initial read and transfer methods from what I gather. |
I'm not sure if this is the same product that Askat is referencing, but according to the VRS site pricing for the Revelation Music Studio starts at $9500 and can go up to $15k. Then if you need or want additional storage add another $1K - $4k.
You can also read more about the VRS here:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/vrs/vrs.html |
However much I applaud the technological advances benefitting musical reproduction, ie in this case 16/44 redbook CD playback. I'm worried that, as is suggested above, the socalled "ace in the hole" is solidly based on software development. And that may mean annual updates/versions, or in other words obsolescence within a very short period of time...and that for something costing >$10K with unacceptable built quality, general user unfriendliness.
Probably some of the reasons why this player hasn't taken off. I'm normally early adaptor, but it's clear to me that this product is far from being ready for the market at large. So I'll content myself in following the various discussions... |
To RX8man, people have taken the lid of as Mr. Perry has said, and no one has been able to duplicate the sound of the Memory Player, and that does include VRS.
As per cost, of course the price of this technology will eventually come down, but what most people don't realize is that what you are really paying for is the two plus years and 1,000s of man hours developing the code employed by the Memory Player.
If you compare the Memory Player to Microsoft's latest attempt to get it right "Vista" then you can get a great perspective. A retail copy of Vista costs about $300.00 when the net cost to produce this product in quantity is probably less than $5.00.00!
What is in a box of software a disc, some printed pamphlets
and a nice looking box. So why $300.00? As I am sure Mr. Gates would tell you it costs millions and millions of dollars to develop the code over many, many years and a ridiculous amount of expensive programming man hours!
Unlike Microsoft both of these companies will sell hundreds of units not millions so the cost for a while will be high to cover, recoup and then to make profit for the designers and principles.
Most audiophiles have no problem spending a lot of money on a pair of cables or other associated hardware, the Memory Player and the VRS both are more than the sum of their respective parts, and should be thought of in that light.
The fact that you can take apart a $32,000.00 pair of Avalon Edilon Diamonds and build your own knock off version for the sum of its parts which would probably cost you less than $6,000.00!
So why doesn't everyone build their own? Obviously it isn't as easy to do, or everyone would be building their own speakers.
As per the difference between the companies just check out the bio difference between the designers.
With Nova Physics you have two of the most respected audiophile engineers in the industry: Mark Porzilli and George Bischoff. Melos had a ten plus year run with great sounding and innovative products and technologies.
Remember the SHA Gold, which was I believe the first audiophile headphone amplifier, then there was the photon coupled volume control developed by Porzilli, then there was the Pipedreams speakers which reinvented the line source array and there were also if I remember the first really high powered triode based tube amplifiers.
VRS looks like they have a snappier website, and probably has a real user interface, but given the engineering backgrounds between the two companies I would bet there would be no contest between them.
|
According to the VRS site Jack Elliano is affiliated with VRS and contributes to circuit designs and research. I have spoken to Jack on a number of occasions and used his equipment and transformers. IMO he is very knowledgeable and I would further say he has a pretty impressive resume in the pro audio and consumer audiophile world. |
If, as most of this forum is saying, the real value in the MP is its' software (the extraction/RUR/error code eliminating software, not the cataloging/GUI stuff) then I would think that Messrs Bischoff and Porzilli could make huge margins (that's what it's all about) and quicker headway by marketing the software only, combined with alliances to hardware/periphery companies. I mean, if it's really revolutionary and rips the cd to the point of elimninating all that is wrong with redbook, most music lovers will pay $300-500 for this, and they'll sell thousands. As a 30 yr veteran of the software industry (sales and mgmt) I marvel at the margins that can be gained by some upfront R&D (already done, evidently) and some cd stamping or downloading production sites. The ongoing R&D can be funded by a minimal upgrade charge and any profit taken from distributing some partner hardware. Then the big guys buy you out and you go sailing. |
"The fact that you can take apart a $32,000.00 pair of Avalon Edilon Diamonds and build your own knock off version for the sum of its parts which would probably cost you less than $6,000.00!"
Audio Doctor-
The tweeters cost $2600. each. Pretty tuff to build knock offs for less $6K.
If anyone would like to try ripper software that rips to RAM like the MP, download audiograbber, it's free. Mahalo to
Mr.Porzilli for the tip. |
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Askat, I did not say that the first VRS system I heard was in 2003. Then I heard a new version, a much better version in 2005, what has taken so long? I don't mean to be argumentative here, and I would love to hear a comparison of the two.
How would you know if one of the MP people picked his brain before the MP came out when the VRS is not yet out either? |
Audiooracle, you make assumptions that you cannot back up! How can you include the VRS in this topic when you have not heard the VRS up close and you have not even heard the VRS Revelation II or better yet, have you heard the Revelation at all? You know nothing about me except what our website says. You say the VRS cannot duplicate what the MP sounds like, how do you know.
Vincent R Sanders
VRS Audio Systems |
Lets get together and do a shootout. How do you know what I may or may not have heard or what my friends may or may not have heard?
Your product and the Memory Player are more alike than different, how come you you don't rebut, these "we can do it ourselves guys" which is the major part of contention in these posts, you have half the guys who are naysayers who don't believe in the product, and the other half think they can cobble together an exact clone for no money what is your opinion?
|
I asked you the question, have you heard the Revelation? Your friends can say anything, what have your ears heard as you made the statement, not them. If you would like to do a shootout then arrange it. I am in Las Vegas and I have a partner that lives in the S.F. Bay area as well. I would like to see an exact clone for no money of the MP or the VRS. The proof is in the listening! There is alot more to hard drive based systems than people think. I have heard the same thing 4 years ago when we first started. The Audio Asylum made the same claims,but no one would take my challenge. |
Vince, since both players will be at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, how about doing it there in a big enough room where many of us could hear? |
I think that there is tremendous interest in both systems, and in music servers in general. I find it frustrating that there is a lot of breast-beating, but no actual players to demo, either in our systems or at dealers. I'm interested in hearing both, as well as the Wavelength Audio DACS. Please guys, set up a dealer network so that we can demo your products, as well as reassure us that you'll be in business for longer than a couple of years.
David Shapiro |
The head-to-head at RMAF would be great for customers. It would be nice if Empirical Audio and others would participate. Steve?... |
I don't know if this would be possible, but we could ask. I will be in N.Y within a month so it may be possible to do a shootout then. But lets do it this way, instead of making the units just transports, let them go head to head as the transport and dac. All the post that I have seen thus far only uses the MP as a transport. This is my last post on this subject. If you would like to speak more on this subject, my phone number is listed on our website. Until NY, have fun listening. |
I'd say that sounds more than fair and reasonable, he's even coming to New York, couldn't get any closer.
Agree, Steve Nugent should check this out too, he's the other genius wizard with computer based music.
Getting these guys together would be great. |
It would be great for those who could attend. How about the RMAF? |
Vinlorjazz,
I happen to be in San francisco right now on a trip. Would it be possible to arrange an audition of your equipment in the next few days? Bob Aranyi |
"Tokyo, Japan, June 27, 2007—Asahi Kasei EMD today launched the AK4397, a 32-bit 192kHz high performance audio DAC for professional audio equipment and top-of-the-line consumer DVD/DVD-Audio/SACD player, AV receiver and digital mixer product applications. The AK4397 is the newest line-up of our Audio4proTM product range.
The new 32-bit digital operation block provides a fully 32-bit processing for the audio interface, perfect linear phase digital filter and delta-sigma modulator. It allows high accuracy D/A conversion of 32-bit audio signal generated by high accuracy processor such as 32-bit DSP.
Innovative design techniques include a symmetrical layout for the left-right switched capacitor DAC and fully separated analog power routing to avoid any degradation by cross talk and common impedance. Additionally, own unique switched capacitor DAC with excellent anti-jitter performance, circuit design to suppress the jitter generated internally, dedicated power supply pin for clock circuit result in unprecedented sound quality.
The AK4397 further provides a dedicated input port for direct stream digital (DSD) data input, sampling rate from 30kHz to 216kHz, fully differential analog outputs, digital attenuator, de-emphasis filters, soft mute and zero detection functions. The performance is THD+N of -103dB and S/N of 120dB. The operating voltage is 5V.
The AK4397 is available in a 44-pin LQFP package. Function and software compatibility with the industry standard AK4396 24-bit Audio DAC means a simple upgrade path for AK4396-based systems. For a demo of its high quality sound, the AK4397 evaluation boards and samples are available now. To obtain more information, contact Asahi Kasei EMD Corporation, Audio & Video Business Operation, Nishi-Shinjuku 1-23-7, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 160-0023, Japan." |
I want to point out that both Vincent and his partner both contacted me about auditioning their player. Unfortunately, I had a sudden change of plans was not able to audition this noteworthy piece of gear. I hope to go the Rocky Mountain Audiofest in October to hear it then. Bob |
Well, now you all know it, the AK4397 is, to my knowledge, the first 32 bit DAC ever, incorporating unique and patented technologies. I was honored to evaluate it at various development stages, including the latest finalized one. It is a "true miracle", IMO!
Needless to say, the AK4397 will be used in all flagship APL Hi-Fi digital products the moment it becomes available.
Since I know that AK4397 was very recently finalized and, at this time, only samples are available, I was very curious to find out what is the "mystery 32 bit DAC" claimed to be in the MP ever since it was introduced? I was just not aware that such thing exists besides the brand new, and until recently, "top secret" AK4397.
Regards,
Alex |
You may be using the same DAC! The Memory Player's DAC is still in development and is not shipping at this time, maybe they had designed it with this chip in mind and had a preproduction sample, just like you.
I will find out from George.
I find it rather interesting that Kana made this post about the 32bit DAC suddenly being here and then APLhifi came in to to say they are using it, when you first questioned how could Nova Physics be using a 32bit dac when they don't exist, well clearly they do.
Does Kana work for you? Your attacks on the Memory Player and this sudden shift to promote your product is rude.
Alex I don't care how expensive or magnificent your products are, Optical playback is inferior and can not no matter what compensate for the ECC related problems and recreated data that optical playback generates.
The entire industry will be adopting over time a hard drive based playback model it is superior, it is jitter free, and it makes cataloging music easy.
Why don't you move to the future and create your own version of the memory player? If you are so smart to beat Mark Porzilli, the man who at age 12 was designing technology for Baush and Lomb, then prove it, for your edification here is a bit about Mark:
Mark Porzilli, a former child prodigy, was able to wire simple circuits and draw schematics at age 5. He completed a masters level education in Physics, Quantum Mechanics and Chemistry at age 14, after winning a national competition to miniaturize electronic circuitry for Bausch & Lomb at age 12. That same year, he designed biofeedback electronics for several New Jersey hospitals, and
entered two state science fairs, winning first place in both. A scholar of religious philosophy and a prolific artist/
By strange coincidence, new designs in LASER seems to be a 'family tradition'. Anthony Porzilli, Mark's father, was the chief electronics technician under Lucio Vallese at ITT Laboratories during his pioneering work on the Ruby Laser, in the early 1960s. He
recalls the extremely precise polishing of "barrels" of rubies, until a single frequency of light ONLY could pass through them!
Mark designed all of Melos Audio's solid state and vacuum tube
products with George Bischoff from 1979-1999. He is also the
designer of the original, award winning Pipedreams Loudspeakers.
He is the designer of the new Scaena Line Source Loudspeakers
as well.
In its 20 year history, Melos Audio garnered over 200 rave reviews
from 30 countries, on six continents. Melos won Stereophile's
"Product of the Year" for its legendary SHA-1 Headphone
Amplifier and "Editor's Choice" in The Absolute Sound. The
original Pipedreams won TAS' "Golden Ear" too.
Mr. Porzilli and Mr. Bischoff are true pioneers in the field and have a proven track record of producing excellent products and creating great sound. Melos was a company that was booming in the 90's and was lauded by many magazines for their great sound and engineering prowess.
Why digress, because a company is as only as good as the people behind it and these two men are both gentleman with knowledge and talent.
You are only focusing in on the DAC side of the equation, a DAC can only perform with the data it is given 32bit or 24bit is almost immaterial when you are dealing with ECC corrupted data you are over before you've begun.
The Memory Player as wells as the VDS are the first audiophile products to address this new model. Wake up fellow audiophiles Memory Playback is vastly superior to optical reading it is that simple and yes it is that much better!
, |
"Does Kana work for you?"
Audiooracle aka the Audio Doctor-
Very funny. You're the only shill in this thread.
I don't sell, don't own and don't plan to own any Aplhifi
gear.
I've never had the pleasure of meeting Alex, never talked
with him on the phone or sent him a PM. I have posted on his forum.
"The Memory Player's DAC is still in development and is not shipping at this time."
Will they have one at RMAF? Will it have all the latest
upgrades? |
Oracle,
Thanks for sharing Mark Porzilli's impressive bio. Can I send my Melos preamp to him for repairs? If the prodigous power of invention was of itself sufficient, then Edison would have convinced the power utilities to adopt a DC power grid & RCA would have survived to enjoy the fruits of it's impressive R&D. I hope Nova Physics survives long enough witness the CDP revolution.
BTW, Alex's post sounds more like applause than self-promotion. |
I find it rather interesting that Kana made this post about the 32bit DAC suddenly being here and then APLhifi came in to to say they are using it, when you first questioned how could Nova Physics be using a 32bit dac when they don't exist, well clearly they do. Alex said they don't exist because they were not commercially available and the chip was, at the time, unannounced. It's possible that Nova Physics also has samples to play with, but Alex was correct in saying what he did. And don't be in such a hurry to drink the ECC and hard-drive Kool-Aid. |
>Your attacks on the Memory Player and this sudden shift to promote your product is rude.<
Incredible.
The biggest self promoter in these threads accusing somebody else of shilling.
It doesn't get any better than this. |
FWIW, I didn't take Alex's post as anything but a proof statement that 32 bit DAC's were not available up until this announcement! he never said he was using them, he said he had tested a couple of samples, and that when it is finally released he WILL be using them. He finds it hard to believe that with the scarcity of this in-development chip (available only for samples, etc.) that the MP DAC would already be based on it. Nothing shill about it.
You guys need to relax..... |
They weren't talking about Alex. Read. |
Okay, maybe I was being a bit hard on Alex but he has the one questioning how Nova Physics could be using a 32bit dac, in the first place.
Then shortly after he questioned how they could be using one, Kana chimes in with the announcement that low and behold 32bit dacs are available and then Alex comes in with with the fact that he too is going to be using this new chipset, it looks like first an attack on Nova Physics credibility and then as a PSA for APL hifi.
Personally I have never heard Nova Physics DAC nor APL's.
I would love to do a shootout in the DAC department.
All I can say is that I am using the Memory Player and the sound quality is a revelation and it crushes optical playback.
|
07-14-07: Askat1988
They weren't talking about Alex. Read. ?? Uh, yes they were. And AudioOracle's apology/explanation followed. Please don't just jump in this thread and state "read"! It comes off way too self-righteous, and I know you didn't mean it to be. I agree that a shoot-out would be a great thing; not necessarily to humiliate anybody or any product, just to show the strengths of each of the products being questioned. Comparing top notch gear like the APL NWO 2.5, the MP player and the VRS system could really take this redbook revolution to the next level! Hell, maybe even a network player/Pace-car/I2S DAC too. Y'all can come to my house....I'll have all the free beer we'd need. |
Kana813 is not affiliated with nor does he own any of our products. I am the sole retail outlet for APl Hi Fi at this stage. I just wanted to clear up any misunderstanding regarding his imput on this thread. Brent Rainwater APL HI Fi . |
So correct me if I'm wrong here. Everyone knows that hard drives can fail and degrade over time. But does a CD ? Isn't optical storage way more stable over time? |
Yes hard drives can fail, that is why there will be redundant external storage with the Memory Player.
Yes optical storage is pretty durable but scratched discs, miss filled discs, and lost discs will be a thing of the past which is a good thing.
However, valid your point is we are all moving away from owning content in its native form.
With Fios, Satellite TV, and other such services high speed down loads of content is the future. CD sales will eventually be as quaint a concept as spinning music via an LP. Just try to find a good record or cd store, Tower is a shinning testament to that future.
Don't get me wrong I love my albums and cd's but this future is inevitable. The wholesale adoption of the Ipod proves my case. Our children will grow up in a future without software in a hard format, the handwriting is on the wall.
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"With Fios, Satellite TV, and other such services high speed down loads of content is the future."
Audiooracle-
If this is the future, how is the MP's "ace in the hole"
featue, RUR, going to be of any benefit?
|
Kana you are right on that one. The Memory Player was envisioned for the person who already has thousands of CDs.
Down loadable music in most cases is already corrupted, so buy your CD's now or forever hold your piece!
|
There are many small recording companies that are getting ready to start putting full rez files online. You already have Music Giants and Linn Records doing it. Also don't forget High Definition Tape Transfers. We are truely entering into a world with no more limitations when it comes to music playback. I have been waiting on this for so long! |
As of 2005 Accustic Arts of Germany claimed the first 32bit/384khz oversampling DAC and they now are claiming 66 bit technology.So what is all the fuss over bit count- it's the sound stupid. I don't sell Memory Players- but the MP with DAC is the best digital I have heard and by a long shot- exceeding my former personal references- dCS and EMM labs and by a significant margin, and just last week besting a local high-end dealers personal home 43K Zanden Transport/DAC combo. |
Audio_tweakers,
Have you heard the Accustic Arts Dac Mk IV? if so, what is it about the MP (and what DAC was connected) that beat it? Thx
Ted |
Ted,
I have the same exact question. Bob |
At HE2007 the Memory Player in combination with the Scaena arrays had the rare combination of treble sweetness with fine detail & extension, and dynamic authority on top of dead-calm relaxation. Less rolled off than Zanden, and less agressive than DCS and most of the other uber-players. Unfortunately I couldn't maneuver myself into the sweet spot, which was occupied for far too long by a very large man gesticulating like some wild Ahab about the demo sounding like "Copland on acid." Must have sounded very good indeed in the captain's chair. |
I will reiterate this question one more time:
Why, oh why, doesn't ANYONE who has heard the MP player ever tell what the DAC was and what the other electronics were. I've never in my life heard someone talk about a transport like this, while sluffing off the DAC it was connected to. You wouldn;t do that for a table-arm-cartridge discussion ("The Avid blew the Nottingham away....oh yeah, it had $10k worth of arm and cartridge, the other had the stock Audio Technica stuff") The only evidience I have of a documented MP-DAC combo was Clement Perry's obvious MP-to-Behold DAC and associated equipment, which is not the best or most relevant scenario (in that the Behold boxes each costs greater than $50k). What the heck was the MP feeding at CES, at HE2007, etc? Why is this so tough? |
There was Behold amplification with the Memory Player & the Scaenas at HE2007. Unfortunately I didn't understand at that time that the Memory Player was a transport only. |
At CES 2007 Scaena used the Memory Player with it's own internal tubed output DAC directly into a Gamut D200 driving the towers of our Scaena Model 1.4. We had planned to use the more expensive and exquisite sounding ASR Emitter Exclusive II but shipping company misdelivery caused a frantic search to borrow a brand new D200. At the 2007 Stereophile HE Show in May we used the Memory Player as a transport only sending a digital signal into the excellent Behold amp. At RMAF in October we will use the MP again with it's internal DAC directly into the ASR Emitter Exclusive II with our Model 3.2- assuming shipping company co-operation. |
Scaena! and DGarretson,
Thanks. Soooo, the MP player DAC is indeed completed and has been evaluated/listened to? I guess I thought it was still in planning/development stages. Has anyone gotten a handle on what the DAC compares with (i.e does it hold up to the Behold and other DACs it's been wed to)? I'm just trying to understand what part of this reported sonic revelation is the MP transport/software and what part is the internal DAC or the very hi-end DACs it's been seen with. |
I'd like knowing if it sounds better with its built-in Dac or a very good external Dac and how effective or necessary is an excellent digtal interconnect. |
Scaena1- according to a NP dealer Audiooracle:
"The Memory Player's DAC is still in development and is not shipping at this time"
Is the MP w/DAC you've demo'd a one of a kind prototype?
Does it use the new AK4397 32 bit DAC? |
Maybe my post wasn't clear. The DAC's design has been finished for some time, what is stopping shipment has been chassis issues.
Originally the DAC was planned to be internal and now the DAC is going to reside in a similar box which goes under the transport. This will allow for more hard drive space in the Transport for redundant storage.
As per the 32bit chip set I will have to find out, but I loved what Audio Tweekers said, how many bits you are using in processing is really immaterial, it is how the device sounds is what matters.
|
Sorry but Audiooracle is mistaken. Scaena used the MP with tubed output DAC at CES. It was a pre-production prototype to the extent that the production models would have different (better cosmetics), have some software improvements that make library titling and extraction easier, and thankfully remote control of volume. The DAC circuitry is in ONE BOX. I am awiting my own personal MP with 32 bit DAC as the first run of tubed output 32 bit DAC MP's has sold out. Scaena Loudspeakers will demo our speakers with this MP with DAC at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Room 2032- Tower Level 2. Please stop in if you attend. |
