I just came across the Zinfandel/Zurich Tonhalle Seventh on SACD from a resale shop. Sonically, this superb. Sorry that this wasn’t on my radar before.
The Paavo Jarvi cycle with his Frankfurt Orchestra on Blu Ray is superb in surround sound. Great performances as well. I disagree with some of the interpretations, particularly the Fourth, but they are always interesting
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Well, I splurged for the Tilson-Thomas set on SFS Media. Should be here in a few weeks (back-ordered on Amazon but got it at a good price). I'll be sure to report out. I have a feeling that when the Minnesota/Vanska completes their Mahler cycle (they still have 3, 8, and 9 to record), it will be offered as a package and I'll def pick that one up, because BIS just seems to be incapable of making anything but a superlative recording.
I love Mahler. I've been to Mahler Fests in Berlin and Amsterdam, and have seen the 8th live nine times in my life (including in LA/Dudamel in May 2019, which blew me away). I'm not a musicologist, so I can't analyze details about how one orchestra plays versus another (except for tempos). Any major orchestra that's been recorded will do a yeoman's job, at least. So, in the end, I try to listen to recordings that are well-recorded. My system (Bryston amp/preamp, Meridian 508.24 CD player, Thiel CS 2.4 speakers) is fairly revealing, and I'm unwilling anymore to listen to shrill, muffled, noisy recordings. I avoid historical recordings because I hate mono and they're usually filled with noise.
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Thanks for resuscitating this thread.
I have both the Bernstein Sony and DG sets. Also the Inbal on Denon. And I downloaded the Maazel NY Philharmonic’s set. I own near complete sets of various other conductors. It’s hard to pick the best sounding set, as SQ various from symphony to symphony.
I love the HDTT hi res masterings of Barbirolli’s 5th and 6th.
The Mahler symphonies in general lend themselves to excellent sounding recordings.
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Anyone interested in reviving this thread?
I have Bernstein’s early 60s cycle recorded with the NY Philharmonic, and remastered by Sony (2009). I also have Bertini/Cologne/EMI and Inbal/Frankfurt/Denon, as well as individual discs (primarily Boulez/DG with 4 different orchestras). The Boulez discs sound really good but I’m looking for a SET with audiophile sound.
I’m aware of the Tilson-Thomas/SFSO set on SFS Media, and the LSO/Gergiev set. Are there any others on SACD? Does anyone have both Tilson-Thomas and Gergiev, and how do they compare? How about Chailly/Concertgebouw? How about Vanska/BIS (which have issued all the symphonies except 3, 8, and 9) ?
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Which are the better recordings from the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra: the Bernard Haitink cycle, the recordings with Mariss Jansons, or the new recordings with Daniele Gatti?
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Here's a real sleeper recommendation for no. 4.
On the shelf I have Bernstein, Fischer, Maazel, Mengelberg, Salonen, and Szell, but I always return to Franz Welser-Most. In particular, Felicity Lott floats the soprano part in the fourth movement more beautifully/ethereally than any other recording I've heard.
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@rvpiano, I will list the symphonies in order with my preferred conductor. NSP = no strong preference. 3 (Haitink), ,1(Abaddo), 6(Bernstein), 4(Solti), 2 (NSP), 5(Jansons), 8(Wit), 9(NSP), Das Lied(Zinman), 7(Zinman), 10(Zinman).
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Also, the Gergiev/LSO cycle may not be the absolute best, but it is one of the most consistently good Mahler cycles right now. |
I would recommend Bernard Haitink & the RCO for Mahler 7 & 9, and the Philharmonia with Lorin Maazel for Mahler 5. I’ve noticed that in some of the Philharmonia’s more recent recordings there is an increased presence in the lower winds and brass. This particularly shines through in the fourth movement of Berlioz’s Symphonie Fantastique with Esa-Pekka Salonen.
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Brownsfan,
Just curious,
What are your favorites? |
I have the Jansons 5. I am not a fan of 5, and don't listen much. The Jansons is my favorite of those I own. It is a beautiful recording and adequate performance I suppose, but take that with a grain of salt since 5 is near the bottom of my Mahler list. I bought it based on a favorable review, but I don't recall who reviewed it.
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@mahler123, I agree with your impression. He’s not much of a Mahlerian. It sounds restrained and never really peaks.
I’ve been listening on Qobuz, most recently #6 which I would call dull.
Superior quality recordings on the RCO label. I need to have a listen to other recordings in their catalogue.
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lowrider
I really respect Jansons (R.I.P.) as a builder and maintaner of terrific Orchestras, namely the Concertgebouw and the Bavarians. However I don’t care for his Mahler. Sonically, agreed, wonderful stuff. My issues is that he reminds me of a dog walker that needs to arrive at a destination but is delayed by his dog sniffing everything along the path. He tends to beautify the micro moments and loses the structure. His Bruckner is a bigger mess for that reason
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Has Mariss Jansons with the RCO been mentioned? I’m listening to the #2 live recording and the sonics are excellent. Not the most powerful rendition, but every detail by the Concertgebouw is heard with no harshness and with plenty of air and space defining the soundstage. The instruments and venue are well mic’d and provide 3 dimensional sound.
In hires it’s a most enjoyable experience.
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More Budapest...I auditioned the Sixth. It’s Andante-Scherzo, which I don’t like but can correct with a touch of the remote. And there is some great playing here, particularly strings in the Alma theme and elsewhere. However, I am starting to concur with Mayor Adam..they sound like they don’t have the cahones to complete with the big boys in this, Mahler’s most ferocious conception. They are a relatively small band at around seventy players, and I think that they should have augmented themselves to compete with the likes of Chicago, Berlin, Vienna, etc
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Yeah, their Fourth is a keeper. Started listening to their Sixth today but haven’t formed an opinion yet |
@mahler123 Yes I did mean the Budapest band I find they are very light with the symphony which Mahler implied through Bruno Walter and the soprano they chose is suitably childlike in the last movement instead of the gargantuan warblers that some past conductors have chosen.
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Jim 204
I assume that you mean Ivan Fischer and Budapest. I like their Fourthand I’ve been comparing it with the Blu Ray of Ivan Fischer leading the Concertgebouw. They are very similar
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@mahler123If you are not impressed by Fischer's Mahler No 1 why don't you try his No 4 as this one is at the moment my favourite but stream it before you buy it as I hate to see people left with a CD that they now have as a coaster. |
I had ordered Fisher/Budapest M1 and I have to concur with the naysayers here. It’s nicely played but in a ridiculously crowded field it doesn’t offer much that is new. |
I am listening to the Blomstedt Ninth on Qobuz now so it must be available?
Just finished III; so far it’s excellent |
I never heard any Blomstedt Mahler; I just assumed it wasn’t in his repertoire |
I really like a version of the Mahler 9th conducted by Blomstedt but it is not comercially available as I recorded it form a BBC Radio 3 broadcast and to me it is devine with all I ever want from a Mahler symphony , it has wonderful dynamics , extreme pathos and a vulnerabillity you can only get from Mahler and it is conducted by a man who the audience and orchestra love.
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In Russia, Richter recorded on some rickety pianos in the boondocks. Yet, the genius shines through..
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I would like to jump into this Mahler pool.
My favorite M, 5th sonically is Barbirolli on EMI. Incredible detail yet warmth.
Another wonderful sounding 5th is the HDTT gold disc mastering of the 1963 RCA recording of Leinsdorf with the BSO. I think Ivan Fischer's recording of the 3rd is sonically and musically superb. Bernstein’s rendering of the 7th with the NY Phil sounds incredible to my ears and it’s my favorite interpretation.
A sleeper is Kiril Kondrashin’s performance of the 9th which I discovered many years ago on an Angel LP. It is now available from HDTT in a somewhat bright sounding but detailed recording. Again, my favorite version. Other favorites sound-wise and interpretatively are Currentzis in the 6th, Szell and Maazel in the 4th and Solti in the 8th. I also admire the work of Roth.
I must admit I’m somewhat puzzled by the seeming preoccupation on this thread with the quality of the orchestras. I would think it’s the interpretation that matters most. When I’m listening to a pianist, I’m not overly concerned about the character of his instrument. Most of the orchestras discussed here are at or near world class.
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I'll add to my previous comments that the Boulez recordings are among the best in sound quality I have heard from DG.
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I very much like Boulez’s Mahler interpretations. I find them more intimate and less grand than my favorite conductors; eg, Bernstein, Abbado. It's a different take on Mahler.
The VPO recordings have the best SQ in the cycle probably due to the sonics of the wonderful Musikveiren and the recording techniques used.
Not quite audiophile, but worth having a listen.
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Although I can't say who has produced the best cycle because there are so many variables I have to agree with @schubert that every one of Fischer's efforts with the Budapest Orchestra is superb in sound and playing but there are many individual symphonies that I just couldn't let go. So for me the jury is out but I still love Fischer's efforts.
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I mentioned in my first post in this thread that I hadn’t sampled to many of the newer Mahler recordings as was therefore interested in some suggestions. The Budapest cycle is the relative new comer for me, along with the other Fisher brother. I have the Boulez/Cleveland Seventh, but haven’t played it in a dogs age. Maybe time for a spin. Abbado/Lucerne or Chicago or or MTT are the other Sevenths that I reach for. |
My choices have to do with vinyl being my primary source, but I guess they date me as well 😕
On original vinyl the Mehta #3 has no rivals sonically, although as a performance the Bernstein (both the CBS and DGG recordings) may be superior.
I forgot to mention Das Lied von der Erde, but here Klemperer on HMV Angel has my preference (yep, another oldie). As for #10 (Cooke version), I like the Rattle on EMI, but I'll admit that I haven't heard any other performances.
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Re:Budapest. I didn’t say they’re terrible. Just way way overrated.
Good choices above from both of you. The Mehta LAP Mahler 3 for me is a bit polite. Very well done played but the recording itself strikes me as being from just a bit too far away. It looks like the preferences for both of you skew to older recordings perhaps hints at your generation. My preference skews towards many of the newer recordings from the big 5 plus LA with notable exceptions for Chicago and LA from the mid 20th.
I have many of these on vinyl as well (not the most recent ones of course which aren’t on vinyl)
It seems both of you like the Bernstein #7. An excellent performer, but I never felt the brass in the NYP from that era up to the task of the very brass-heavy 7. I’d recommend the Cleveland (Boulez - 1996) recording. It’s simply stunning.
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@edgewear
Of course no one is restricted to just one cycle, and not every conductor has an equal affinity for each piece. So here goes.
#1 Horenstein/LSO
#2 Abbado/Chicago
#3-Bernstein/NYP first recording. Abbado/Lucerne
#4-Szell
#5-Honeck/Pittsburgh or Walter/NYP (mono)
#6-Karajan/BPO. #7 Bernstein/NY Phil (Sony)
#8 Solti
#9 Karel Ancerl/Czech PO
Das Lied-Reiner or Walter (stereo)
#10. Without getting into the question of which edition—Dausgaard/Seattle
I like your choices, all of which I have in my collection, except the Mehta (had it on vinyl but sold off my analog rig a few years ago).
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Why stick to one conductor and one orchestra? You can compile your own favorite cycle.
Here’s mine:
#1: Bruno Walter / Columbia Symphony (columbia USA)
#2: Otto Klemperer / Philharmonia Orchestra (emi/columbia UK)
#3: Zubin Mehta / LAPO (decca)
#4: Georg Szell / Cleveland Orchestra (columbia UK)
#5: John Barbirolli / New Philharmonia Orchestra (hmv)
#6: Georg Solti / Chicago Symphony (decca)
#7: Leonard Bernstein / NYPO (DGG)
#8: Georg Solti / Chicago Symphony (decca)
#9: Bruno Walter / Columbia Symphony (columbia USA)
This is almost exclusively based on the original vinyl issues (except the Bernstein 7th), but I’m sure these performances are all available on cd or SACD. Don’t know about the quality of the digital transfers, but the sound quality on vinyl is mostly excellent (exceptional in the case of the Mehta 3rd).
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I think that you are being hard on the Budapest Festival Orchestra. I am not claiming that it can equal Chicago or Vienna , etc.,for lung power, and I thought I made that pretty clear. What they have done, however, remarkably well, is create a MittelEuropa type of sound, that may have been what the finest Orchestras that weren’t Berlin or Vienna may have sounded like in Mahler’s day (and let’s not forget that GM worked quite a bit in the Hungarian Capital).
If you wish to limit your listening to “how the very top Orchestras perform these works” be my guest. To imply that the Budapest is some kind of semi pro outfit that is out of their depth, however, is engaging in hyperbole. I agree that the Fisher /Budapest Ninth isn’t competitive, as a performance with the very best, nor have I heard any Mahler recording by them that displaces any of my favorites.
This isn’t because the Budapest cycle is bad, but because the bar is so incredibly high. Look how many Mahler recordings are out there! Most of the greatest Conductors of the last 50 years are represented, along with quite a few “Who?” What the Channel Classic recordings, are, however, are the most realistic reproduction of how the actual Orchestra sounds that I am personally familiar with. They represent a fine Orchestra faithfully reproduced. The performances are at worst passable.
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Sorry, hit the wrong button above.
I am not just an audiophile. Most of my favorite recordings, of Mahler or any other Composer, would not win audiophile awards. However, this is an audiophile site, and I would like to get feedback on what people think are the best sounding recordings. I post in a few Classical Music sites, where audiophiles are routinely ridiculed as we are elsewhere. So here I would like to indulge my love of sound and not be censored for it.
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@mahler123 that’s just the point with Budapest. They are a fine orchestra but really not at the same level as an orchestra like Chicago. While interpretation is a part, at some point it’s closer to a professional sport and some teams just have more talented players. Perhaps I am showing my hand, but as a player in professional orchestras, I find Budapest’s playing quite dull.
As for that recording of Mahler 3 with CSO. I’m assuming you’re talking about the Resound release? That’s actually my favorite recording of the work. Maybe the “recording” sounds a bit dry, but the sound is there. The opening with the horns is intense and bright, with great attack. The posthorn (cornet is this case) solo in the 3rd Mvt is as wonderful as it’s ever been performed. The strings and winds throughout play with emotion that comes through on every note. Really my only criticism is the trombone solo in the 1st being a bit too herky jerky, having heard it performed in Philadelphia by the wonderful Nitzan Haroz.
I offer another example where most orchestras including Budapest just can’t match the top orchestras. Mahler 9. It is such a wonderful work, but must be treated with care. Budapest plays the notes on the page, but that’s not enough. In contrast, the more recent recording of Dudamel and Los Angeles is divine. It’s hard to put your finger on it, but it feels like they play every phrase just a bit longer than the page says, giving it this sweet, flowing character. Everything is rounded, and this brings a connectedness not found in other recordings.
Like I said, if you’re just listening to a recording for how closely it matches the live performance, you’re an audiophile. I get it. When it comes to orchestra I care about that too, but I care far more about the performance. I want to hear how the very top musicians perform these works. The conductor is but one person. The manager, for sure, but an otherwise much less talented team is not going to perform a miracle. |
Regarding Fisher and Budapest, I heard them in concert here this year on tour. Their Channel Classics recordings strike me as being faithful at capturing their sonority. They have a lean, finely chiseled sound. Their woodwinds have great character. The brass is finely tuned. The CSO brass would undoubtedly blow them halfway to Milwaukee if they had a shootout, but the Budapesters aren’t trying to win a testosterone war. The Orchestra that they remind me the most of is the Czech Philharmonic, but the Budapest has a bit more heft in the strings. |
Regarding Haitink/CSO, I live in Chicago and was present at some of the concerts from which the aforementioned recordings were made. My favorite Haitink/CSO Mahler concert was the First, and for some reason I never acquired the recording that was issued, because I don’t think it could match the experience of that night.
I was a bit disappointed with the recording of the Third, which as I foreshadowed above, dulled the memory of a fine evening in the Hall. To me the sound of the recording is a bit dry in places, and not consistent with my aural memory of the evening. Curiously I don’t feel that way about the Haitink/CSO Sixth, but otoh the Sixth doesn’t really play to Haitink’s strengths (his Amsterdam recording is relatively blah, but his Amsterdam cycle on BluRay is a sonic treat). |
I think we are spoiled for choice in Mahler. The greatest Orchestras —in no particular order, the Berliner Philharmoniker (the fashionable way to refer to that ensemble), Vienna Philharmonic, Bavarian Radio Symphony, Amsterdam Concertgebouw, Chicago Symphony)—have all recorded multiple Mahler cycles. The Cleveland, London Symphony, Philharmonia have all had significant Mahler recorded histories. The New York Philharmonic cycles with Bernstein (I am more familiar with the sixties cycle) and the London Philharmonic live recordings with Tennstedt represent two cycles with excellent ensembles /Conductor combos with particular Mahler affinities.
As I alluded to in my first post, lately there has been an explosion of Mahler recordings, many with Orchestras that perhaps aren’t thought of conventionally as ready for prime time. Witness Fisher brother #2 and his hardworking Dusseldorfers. I haven’t heard many of these although the reviews are excellent. |
@mayoradamwest , @schubert
The Fisher/Mahler are certainly audiophile quality recordings, and maybe that's one of the reasons for my enthusiastic response to them. I do think Fisher has a good grasp of Mahler from what I've heard. But since there's no compilation of the cycle, I'm exploring the symphonies one at a time.
It's a joy hearing symphonic music recorded with great care using proper microphone placement.
I think it's Grammaphone who lists the Budapest as a world class orchestra, currently rated at number 9.
To add to other's comments, I agree that Haitink/Chicago is top-class Mahler.
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The Fisher recordings are great if you haven’t heard a top tier orchestra play Mahler. It’s more an “audiophile” recording than great performances. As for a recent recording there are so many excellent ones from Los Angeles, Philadelphia, New York, Chicago, Berlin, and Concertgebouw. |
@mahler123. Agree on the Gergiev LSO sonics. Since the thread started I've picked up 3 and 6 Haitink/Chicago. Great sonics, decent performances, especially the 3rd. I have high standards on the third, having heard Welser-Most at Severance Hall in Cleveland live. Otherworldly. |
@schubert . Len, I picked up the Fisher 4. Struck me as good but not great. Still like Solti on 4 though it is not great sonically. What would you say are Fishers best Mahler efforts. The next time you miss on a recommendation will be the first. |
@schubert , I'm listening to the Fisher via Qobuz. Really an excellent reading of Mahler. And the sound is outstanding; very well mic'd with ambience of the hall.
Thanks for the recommendation. Possibly the best I've heard in years.
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I haven’t heard Gergiev in Mahler, but I really dislike the sonics on all of the LSO Live recordings with which I am familiar. There is only so much that can be done with that Dead Concert Hall, the Garbage Can. Let’s hope that Simon Rattle succeeds in getting a new Hall built.
I really like the Berlioz that I have heard from Xavier Roth with his period group.
Tennstedt Mahler is something that I have never quite developed a love for. I do have his Fourth, with Lucia Popp as the soloist, but while I’ve had some people praise his live performances to the skies, for me he sounds sternly Teutonic without the leavening Irony or sufficient Viennese Gemutlich. |
Valery Gergiev's Mahler cycle with the London Symphony is available in a 10 SACD box. LSO - 0730. Live performances! I have it! |
I really enjoyed listening to the
Tennstedt/LPO on Qobuz. It's a very limited selection, so I think I'll go for the cycle that's available on Amazon.
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For fans of the Fischer cycle, try the live recordings of Tennstedt with London Philarmonic — in many instances, simply breathtaking!
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An excellent series so far is Francois Xavier-Roth on Harmonia Mundi, sonics and performance.
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