When one plunks down $10,000 $50,000 and more for a speaker you’re paying for awesome sound, perhaps an elegant or outlandish style, some prestige ... but what makes the price what it is?
Are the materials in a $95,000 set of speakers really that expensive? Or are you paying a designer who has determined he can make more by selling a few at a really high price as compared to a lot at a low price?
And at what point do you stop using price as a gauge to the quality? Would you be surprised to see $30,000 speakers "outperform" $150,000 speakers?
To vander off topic (get it, vander instead of wander ), while I admire and appreciate the thoughtfulness put into the Vandersteen 1ci's and other vandersteen models, the sweet spot is too small (something like a square foot). You move a little bit, or there is more than one person listening, or there is a slight mis-measurement and the benefits are lost.
Jim, I hear that from folks, but honestly, it's much larger than a foot or so. Everyone on the couch in my house enjoys them greatly. Like many great speakers, the sweet spot is smaller than others. There are always tradeoffs with any speaker build. Richard has chosen the best sound he can give you in it's price range, but that means that it won't be a sweet spot for the whole room. I find most speakers with large sweet spots to be unfocused a bit with no true sweet spot if you would. Again, this is a general thought as I think through my recent auditions. I know that recently at an event for the 7s, the sweet spot was very large. Larger than I remember it being for the mk 1's. I also think that the Niagara 7000 made part of that difference as we all felt the sound stage was larger and more realistic than usual. I try to always take the time to maximize the room acoustics when I'm able to. After that I do take the time to dial in my speakers. I've always had a sweet spot for two if you would, but the rest of the room never seems to suffer at all. I'm the only one who ever listens critically and even then, I enjoy the music so much with the Vandersteens, that I won't have a problem with the sweet spot, but that's just me. Most audiophiles I speak with Jim, seem to listen alone when it's critical time. It's going to be a personal thing of course, but honestly, for the price if you want a special sounding speaker, the Vandy's will give the critical listener a great sound and that's why he has and continues to be the sales leader in these price categories.
Not saying you are wrong, but its' one of the trade offs and none of us who have them for long periods of time seem to have that problem. :)
Hi ctsooner, actually I bought a pair of Vandersteen 1ci's about a month ago. I bought demos (with full warranty) and believe I received very good value.
I'm still getting to know them and am second guessing myself.
Congrats Jim. What I've noticed in the years with all good speakers are that they won't wow you necessarily, but give them time to get to know them. Often times it's what they don't do rather than what they the opposite. Just like some stores turn up the brightness on their TV's to wow you in the store, may speakers are made to sound more exciting in a store do they show up better in demo's, but in the long run the best choice is often the one that you listen to and enjoy and you get to know them better and better during the journey. At first when I went from my Proac towers to the Vandersteen Treo's, I noticed a difference for the better, but I wasn't blown away. The longer I listened, the more I realized that I was reaching for all my recordings and not just the best recorded ones. I also was listening on average an extra couple or hours a day on days I was able to. I started to really heard the layering difference. Kind of like when I started to learn about wines in my 20's. It wasn't until I was told what to look for or taste that I really understood the huge but subtle differences in wines and cost. The detail retrieval is real on the Vandersteen speakers, where on some of the competing speakers in the 1's range, it's just tipped up on top and distortion. Too many folks hear that and think it's a 'cleaner' speaker or more open when in fact it's not. Just isn't so. That goes for expensive high end speakers also. Vandersteen puts tweeters on the backs for the 5 and 7 I believe, but no one I know uses them. They keep them on off all the time. I asked Richard about this and he said that in order for him to be competitive in the market, he decided to include them as some folks feel that makes the speaker better as it has more ambiance. It really doesn't. It's just more waves that aren't needed in the room.
The more folks I speak with about Vandersteen in the industry, the more I realize that they privately own them for their personal listening. Some of the largest names in audio use them for personal use when they get other stuff for free or high reduced rates. They are often purchase and torn apart to try and recreate what he's done and it's been like that since he broke onto the scene with the 2's back in the early 80's.
Feel free to email me about your thoughts and system. I just like seeing folks happy with their purchases and listening. Pete.
YOUR EGO.. when audiophiles are willing to shell out a hundred thousand dollars + for an audio speaker I remember the words " If you build it they will come" from a Costner movie and so true is the rational behind mega buck speakers that sound greaty, but arne t any better than one costing half the price. Audio gear is the same. There was a website.. " Whats inside" that showed the inside of audio components and I was amazed to see a $60,000. phone stage with one transformer and a circuit board with a few caps. The inside box was 70% empty.. The Buyers feed the market as to whats made. If no one buys a super priced speaker.. no one will make it. Companies will have their flagship speaker but dont look to sell tons of them at over $100k . I wish the stereo reviewers would do shoot outs. I challenge Wilson Audio Alexandra XLS at over $100k+ to go up against Legacy Audio V $50k and have a panel of judges determine which speaker sounds better. Its a matter of each individuals taste in sound but i bet dollars to donuts the sound is not 3 x's the price better. Subjective.. you bet.. A rip off.. for those that can t afford it..lol. Thats why I thank God for Audiogon as it puts the costlier gear that I could never afford, at my reach years down the road when I could potentially buy it used at 60% off retail. Now does that $150 K speaker sound the same at $60k ? It sounds better..lol.
Not at the $150K level as an owner but have heard wilson and legacy at shows in the past years.. This is my second Audiogon profile as my original one was deleted due to snoopy x wife. Does that answer your question siddh? Do you have any actual experience siddh?
Ive had 20 year old $2500 B&W 801's with new upgraded crossovers built by Solen sound better than a lot of $10k speakers that ive heard in dealers showrooms, Totem, Dynaudio, to name a few. My monet stayed in my pocket when I was shopping around for potential new speakers and to see whats out there. Revel Ultima Salon were the only ones that sounded better at $20k to my ears.
Ego? yes, for some. Most of my audio friends who can afford a speaker over 30k let's say, do it because they fall in love with the sound. They can afford them without even noticing the debit in their accounts. Audiophiles are of two groups usually. One group collects gear.....some collect as much as they can and they keep sites like this going. Others love their gear, but love the music more. That's one of the few statements any of can make in audio that isn't really subjective. Just ask any dealer who's been around for over 30 years and they'll say the same thing.
As for 'what's in the box', we have discussed that at length in this thread. Too many avenues to discuss about that from scale of economy to R&D to cabinet build/finish to quality of the components in there to most importantly drivers and their implementation.
Derrick, I do disagree with you about being able to listen at a show and then make any real subjective thoughts. Show conditions usually stink at best. The rooms alone are usually terrible, then you have so many in a room. Any speaker will only sound it's best in the sweet spot and it's nearly impossible to sit in that sweet spot. I don't think many will argue with that, but many who love the shows still will say I'm wrong. To each their own.
Many of us have been fortunate to go listen at friends houses as well as top dealers, to many of the speakers in the market over 50k up to 250k. The other major part of the equation is the system as a whole. Some speakers must have specific amps to sound their best as well as cable etc... I loved a Tidal system I listened to that probably cost north of 400k when it was all said and done. Man did it sound awesome. It really did, but it didn't sound better to me than a system I love that costs less than half of that. Even half is still 200k. For some they laugh at this thread or get upset that folks even question why they'd pay so much for audio. Why do they own an Bugatti or other esoteric auto? Why does their house cost so much? Why do they......its' because they can and because they can, it allows smaller companies to make a nice profit and filter down the tech to speakers in the lower price ranges that most of us play in. I thank the manufacturers and the fellow audiophiles for helping us all out. In the end, we are all winners. How cool is that?
I totally agree with you on the audio show set ups. The best scenario would be in your home listening to any high cost speaker. Audio shows are a great way for the masses to hear, (although crappy room set up as you stated) and see the high end products. Synergy ( equipment and room ) is the key to getting the most out of your speakers and system. I think the point is the sound perceived per dollar spent on speakers. As you stated the sound of the speaker in your example did not sound any better than the sound of the half priced speaker. We all have systems based on our means and wants. Should I inherit $50 million dollars, you bet Id be auditioning the high performance speakers out there, still that $200k speaker may not sound any better than a $100k speaker, my new found wealthy Ego allows me to try it thus fueling the demand for manufacturers to create such things of beauty. Cheers my friend.
About listening at shows.... one tip that I go by now is I go through the hallways first. If the music sounds good outside, then and only then do I bother to go in.
It sounds really weird, but this was a tip I had learned before, and was confirmed by an acoustician from ASC at one show. If a room is well treated, it's going to sound good inside and out. You can tell outside the room how well a room is going to sound.
Of course, if you are on the "never acoustical treatment" camp this tip won't work for you and you don't care about what I was listening to in the first place, but for those on the other team, I suggest nest time you go to a show, pay attention and see what you think.
One thing I also realized is that there are a lot of audiophiles who are perfectly happy to listen past the rooms, while I'm usually not. There are usually only a handful of rooms I can even tolerate to be in. So, depending on your listening style this tip may help you.
Why do some people have the need to convince everyone that their brand of speakers are the best for everyone? People have to listen for themselves and decide which speakers they like best. There are many different brands of speakers that sound great and offer good value, not just one or two.
Why do people have to dis speakers they can't afford? Yes the law of diminishing returns applies to speakers, but some people have listened to a lot of speakers and decided they like the sound of $100k speakers best and they can afford them. Why does that bother some people so much?
I am glad that there are many different speakers to choose from at any price point and see this as a positive not a negative.
I am also happy that there are people who are willing to pay the big bucks for the absolute best because this is still a free country where you can buy whatever the hell you can afford, and these people fund much of the research that goes into making my $5,000 speakers sound so good.
So, don't let anyone tell you which speakers you should like. Listen and decide for yourself and allow others to do the same, even if the speakers they like are unaffordable to you.
Your emotions cause you to buy speakers, not your oscilloscope. Buy what you like, but always keep an ear out for what else you might like, and different types of emotional engagements.
It’s like baseball. Stats are fun, but it’s the game that keeps you in your seat during the overtime innings. :)
Also, I'm sorry but I'm not convinced the goal should be to spend the most. Anyone can spend $300 to get a great bottle of wine. I think the best audiophile and music lovers need to be looking for that $20 dollar bottle of wine that is just as good. :)
No Offense intended derrickengineer. I have heard some expensive speakers in optimal rooms with very pricey ancillary electronics and front ends. They produced some of the closest to live reproductions I have heard. A Wilson speaker with master tape front-end. Genesis Ones playing acoustic guitar...very real presentation. Vandersteen 7's...incredible air, depth of staging, delineation, and musical. Tidal...don't recall which model, with all Tidal electronics and digital front end...kept me totally absorbed. Polymer Audio did some spectacular things at Axpona. The larger YG Acoustics, to my taste and ears, bettered their smaller models. Kaiser Kawero were extremely enjoyable...great throughout the frequency range. Occasionally, the expensive Magicos performed well. I have never heard the MBL's sound musical and involving..but only heard at shows I would very much wish to hear the large Avalons and Evolution Acoustics.
My understanding is each of these speakers have achieved this level of performance by utilizing expensive components; in the drivers and crossovers, plus the density of the cabinet and internal wiring. To reach the depths of lower bass, extension in the upper frequencies, and the delicious, seductive mid-range,; my experiences are from these high-end, high-priced products.
My issue with your statement, derrickengineer, is as with all respondents who make blanket generalizations about a product without actual encounters. Not very practical or objective.
I own $20000 B&W speakers. At audio show, the speakers I felt obviously better than mine were all a lot more than $20000. I think price does matter somehow.
if you have a BIG BANK ACCOUNT you can fool yourself into
believing that the speakers you plan on buying ........ say 150,000 bucks but you also seen & listened to a set that you didnt know that they were only 2,000 but can anyone honestly say that the set at 150,000 are 148,000 TIMES BETTER than the set at 2,000 .......... i say " Bollocks "
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
