A good engineer need only know their technical domain best in order to be the best engineer.
But there is more to delivering good engineered solutions. Its a team sport. In that context, the best engineer is the one that uses their expertise to help deliver high value to the end user. High value and best technical implementation are not necessarily the same thing as we have seen many times over the years in terms of what products succeed and which do not.
Apple is the classic example these days of applying technology effectively over time to meet the most user needs. |
"02-13-15: Mapman
Well, not all engineers are created equal. From what I read Duke is a pretty good one though."
That's definitely a true statement. The first part, anyway. I don't know Duke so I can't really say anything good or bad, about him. I would add to that, by saying the best engineers are the ones who realize products can't be designed in a vacuum, and aren't afraid to use other resources to make a better product. Anyone who tells you how something is going to sound just by looking at a spec sheet is full of it. Those are not the people you want designing your gear. |
"02-13-15: Audiokinesis
Regarding engineers, any piece of audio equipment that sounds good didn't get that way by being poorly engineered."
I agree, but you left out the other half.
Regarding engineers, any piece of audio equipment that sounds bad, didn't get that way by being well engineered.
"Anyway a thread like this is a minefield for a manufacturer, and I've ventured in farther than is wise already."
Not if they make good sounding products. |
ALso good engineers tend to be expensive and most companies cannot afford enough good ones. Hopefully they have at least one or two somewhere..... |
Well, not all engineers are created equal. From what I read Duke is a pretty good one though.
I'm not an acoustic engineeer, but it makes sense to me that larger structures would be needed to effect lower frequencies.
I am a systems/software engineer and have some background in physics. Not that it matters....
With most companies its the marketing folks that determine what the public sees in that the task at hand is to make sales and teh consumers are not engineers.
So lots of nonsense from a technical perspective goes on there all the time. Ive seen it as an engineer working with marketing folks to help them understand how a product really works. What comes out the other end is mostly a function of target audience demographics.
With small companies the engineer may also be the boss and also the marketer wearing different hats at different times. So anything is still possible.
There is a lot of grey with the Wavetouch for sure. In home trials/satisfaction guarantees when honored take most of teh risk out of trying something different at least.
|
No it doesn't wolfman, like I said I work with engineers in manufacturing everyday, the production workers with no degree are the companies best engineers. and if a car is advertised as 300hp and only delivers 150hp isn't that false advertisement? this happened to sony saying their tv was 55inch when in fact it was 54.5 inches. and no I don't think if a system is right for me its right for everyone, some people think my Parasound amp and pre are junk! but I'll never get rid of them. and as far as speakers go I had some B&W 804s and could not stand the sound of them, and there is many who would disagree, to each his own. I'll know next week what wavetouch is like if it sucks I return them! |
Regarding engineers, any piece of audio equipment that sounds good didn't get that way by being poorly engineered.
Marketing and engineering are very different disciplines. Marketing uses emotion(!!!) and engineering uses math (yawn). Anyway, it is quite possible for a speaker to be well engineered but then hyper-hyped by the marketing department. I recall a speaker whose claimed bass extension was an exaggeration by about one octave... but it was still a very well-designed, good-sounding speaker, despite the fantasy claims of the marketing department.
In order to impart directional control of sound waves, a device must be at least 1/4 wavelength long in the dimensions of interest. For example, the baffle step kicks in at the frequency where the edge of the enclosure is 1/4 wavelength away from the center of the woofer to either side, which means the baffle width is 1/2 wavelength. So a horn 2.5" deep will not have effective directional control below 1.3 kHz. Just wanted to put that in the record.
Unfortunately different yardsticks are used by different manufacturers for coming up with their efficiency and bass extension specs... but that would be another can of worms for another day.
Anyway a thread like this is a minefield for a manufacturer, and I've ventured in farther than is wise already.
Duke
dealer/manufacturer/mime in a minefield |
"02-12-15: Unclehub
Stop wasting your $$$ on $10k speakers or ultra expensive equipment! My last system consisted of a Sunfire Theater Grand III - (7) Marantz MA700 Mono blocks - NHT T-6 Evolution Towers and matching center & surrounds - and a Velodyne HGS-15 Servo Sub. I thought I had a decent setup until I redid everything (sold the old system with the house)."
That makes complete sense. If something works well for you, then it has to work for everyone. |
It's 50 percent on Nordast cables and 75 percent on Demo cables. Still a 3k pair os speaker cables that cost 1500 is very high!! Speaker cost 10k and dealer gets it for 5k or so. That is a huge markup. |
His name is "jug" head. He has a Master plan at work here I think. 👏👏👏 |
"Engineers are educated idiots", you say after having your digital alarm clock wake you up, took a shower off the public water works, took the freeway system to work in your Mercedes, walked up to your 15th floor office, booted up your computer, logged onto the internet, and posted how engineers are idiots. Self-righteous much?
"Why bash something I've never heard", well
- Why complain about the car marketed as having 300hp that only delivers 150, unless you've driven it
- Why complain about that bologna sandwich that they told you was prime rib, until you've eaten it
Does that connect the dots well enough for you? |
Zd542
'Even if they don't, you can upgrade her with the money you saved on the speakers."
I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at this, what a great comment. |
Yeah Wolfman I'm a wavetouch agent from the Iowa chapter. another thing about an engineer and the design of a speaker is this, what else is an engineers job besides design for a company? cost savings, how do we cut corners and save money for maximum profit. so physics becomes money, and science becomes money. |
"02-12-15: Jughead
Wavetouch will make my wife's breast bigger? sweet I'm in!"
Even if they don't, you can upgrade her with the money you saved on the speakers. |
"02-11-15: Nyaudio98
News flash to the brilliant ones who don't get it, do you know the markup from dealer to retailer is sometimes 70 percent..so you audophiles who want to spend 10k on a speaker that cost the retailer 4-5k..go right ahead!!! Or, look for a conmpany that doesn't have those margins and actually puts more into the speakers then that!!!!! "
No offence, but you don't know what you are talking about. If there's one fundamental rule in business, its this: You never, under any circumstances, tell anyone what you pay for something. Its just not done. Even a half ass business person knows that one. If someone tells you what they pay for something, they're lying. So, unless you've signed a dealer agreement, you can't know what you are talking about. |
Also look at the Spendor D7. They have some great reviews. |
Wavetouch will make my wife's breast bigger? sweet I'm in! something that is built and designed by an engineer means nothing to me, I work with engineers everyday. and most of them are just educated idiots! I don't think anyone is trying to divert attention away from the speaker, I just would like to know why you would bash something you've never heard? |
Stop wasting your $$$ on $10k speakers or ultra expensive equipment! My last system consisted of a Sunfire Theater Grand III - (7) Marantz MA700 Mono blocks - NHT T-6 Evolution Towers and matching center & surrounds - and a Velodyne HGS-15 Servo Sub. I thought I had a decent setup until I redid everything (sold the old system with the house).
In the new house I went with a Pioneer SC-85 Atmos receiver ($1600) - EMP TEK R55Ti towers matching center & surrounds ($1700) and the HSU VFT 15H MK2 ($1006) - this new (at 1/4 the $$$) simply BLOWS away my old system. The EMP TEK towers image and soundstage is unbelievable - I actually had to get up to see if the center channel was on! These speakers literally disappear. As far as the sub goes - there is no comparison - the HSU blows the Velodyne out of the water. I'm hearing music/movies like I've never hear before!
I won't even get into cables - makes me sick to my stomach to think what I spent on cables for the old system (including a $700 balanced cable for the sub)! Today I'm using 'regular' Cable Matters for all the speakers and a $50 RCA to the sub. The funny part - is the room hasn't even been completed and I'm getting far superior sound with 'regular' equipment. |
Jh,
"This is by far the best speaker buying experience I've ever had!"
I can all but guarantee when mated with the quality gear you have mentioned, you will be rewarded with one of the most holographic and mesmerizing audio experiences you've had (regardless of price, yes I said it). I'm not saying they are the best speakers I've heard, but they have qualities of immediacy, openness, naturalness, clarity, layering few possess. As you know I've had the latest generation G2's for a few months now and have owned several speakers in the $5-10k range. Most stereophile class A rated... Artemis eos full range, some JMR's,KEF's, Thiels and some others a bit out of the ordinary that were never reviewed, some true outliers.
The current Wavetouch speakers, when integrated properly into a system/environment and optimized, the room will absolutely be filled with natural dimensionality and convincing PRESENCE and VANISH. Obviously short of Full extension and room loading dependent the current Wavetouch loudspeakers' drivers and parts synergy IS THAT GOOD.
Thanks for enduring more nauseating praise.
Stay pumped... and use those 40 days. I don't know how many hours of play your speakers will be delivered with, mine took a good 300 to totally relax, and become effortless...When a speaker is delivering the goods it makes your whole body totally relax as well. No edge, nothing to draw attention to itself, leaving you in the moment.
Cheers |
which company uses the best parts, tweeters and drivers and capacitors..makes there sound so fullfilling on many fronts?? Wilson..nah..u fill in da blanks |
|
I think you've got the right attitude, Jughead. Keep right on truckin'... |
"Please don't do that. You don't speak for us, and you cannot assume we all agree with your judgement of an AudiogoN member.
Regards,
Metralla (System | Answers | This Thread)"
You're right. I shouldn't have said that. I didn't think before I hit the enter key. It's no excuse, but that's what happened. |
News flash to the brilliant ones who don't get it, do you know the markup from dealer to retailer is sometimes 70 percent..so you audophiles who want to spend 10k on a speaker that cost the retailer 4-5k..go right ahead!!! Or, look for a conmpany that doesn't have those margins and actually puts more into the speakers then that!!!!! |
This is by far the best speaker buying experience I've ever had! I did look into the pmc but their terms and condition section was like a selling my soul contract. if the wavetouch isn't my thing I would like to hear Wolfman's stiff breeze if they would offer a 40 day in home trial. |
PMC are also fantantic speakers, well worth a look. |
02-11-15: Zd542 writes: To the rest of us, its clear that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Please don't do that. You don't speak for us, and you cannot assume we all agree with your judgement of an AudiogoN member. Regards, |
Zd542,
Good to know about ProAc. I look forward to AXPONA to hear speakers in the $10k range.
Anyone has opinions on the Spendor D7? The reviews are all good, but not seen them come up in discussions on these forums. |
I'm sensing that some Wavetouch agents are attempting to divert us from the issue at hand which is their fabricated claims.
Someone please explain the obsession with Vapor, I assume you mean Vapor Audio? I've ran in the same circles with Pete for many years, and he can rub people the wrong way. Is that what this is about? Or is it just an attempt to again, avoid the issue at hand?
I am not here to sell you anything. Desire to leave my chosen field, which is quite lucrative, is nonexistent. I build speakers on weekends and am quite good at it, because speakers are very very simple machines dominated by easily understood sceintific principles. Those of you who are befuddled by science buy into fabricated grandiose claims, and are the reason why audiofools are perceived the way they are. Anybody who's able to tie their own shoes could self-educate to the point where making a smart decision about speakers is simple. So why do you not begin that simple journey? Instead opting to just throw money at the problem and see what sticks.
An entry level understanding would teach you that there is no way around the physics of our Universe, there is no free lunch. And the bogus claims would immediately be identified as such. As mentioned above PMC, ATC, ProAc, those are all speakers designed and built by engineers who understand the laws of our Universe and apply them appropriately. But I suppose they're just not exciting enough for some because they don't promise 20 more years of life expectancy and for your wifes breasts to double in cup size.
Now who will I be accused of being next? Whatever it takes to divert attention from the obviousness of my text. |
"02-11-15: Milpai
Lets vaporize this whole thread!!!
How else does a $10k question turn into a Vapor discussion."
The OP was considering Vapor and this is where the discussion led.
"I was hoping to hear about PMC, Spendor, ATC, Proacs, etc."
I've had a few pairs of ProAc and thought they were excellent. You can do far worse. |
Lets vaporize this whole thread!!!
How else does a $10k question turn into a Vapor discussion. Seriously folks, let get back to the original topic. I was hoping to hear about PMC, Spendor, ATC, Proacs, etc. |
When I was looking for postings on Vapor either here or other sites I saw a lot of drama. The "Wolf" likes birch ply because that is what Vapor uses. Pretty clear who "wolf" is and I would not touch the company with a ten foot pole. Go to Audio Circle and look up Dragon_vibe's DELETED posts.
"ALARMING" It would be a very stupid idea to part with your money! It makes sense why they were deleted. |
I hope Wavetouch proves the critics wrong.
I looked at the website. I think there is a good deal of analogy directed at the layperson applied there to describe what they are trying to do. It kinda works to describe what teh advertised benefit is but of course is lacking in technical detail as is the case with many product websites targeting the average person and not just engineers that might be able to sort through things.
I'll give it credit for being unique. Can it deliver particularly in the value category? We'll see. It seems to use some good components as mentioned and I would expect it to be more directional than otherwise, which is a somewhat unique design goal and is the jist of what they are trying to do I think. Kinda taking things in the opposite direction from teh norm than omnidirectional speakers. There could be unique benefit with that if done even moderately well that might help justify the cost for what seems to be an undersized product for teh cost otherwise on teh grand scale of things. Time will tell. Jughead perhaps even sooner. I see the glass maybe to be more half full than half empty with this product. At least its something a little different. We'll see soon I suspect if its the deal deal or just another passing gimmick.
|
Jughead did you look at the Nola KO speakers? |
"So who am I? I'm the fly in the ointment, that small but irritating voice that won't go away when manufacturers trot out bogus claims and outright lies. I'm here to set the record straight, and choose the cover of anonymity for purpose of my righteous mission."
And once again, all talk.
"First off, the outlandish claims could easily be proven with a simple calibrated response measurement. Something any speaker manufacturer worth their salt should be doing anyway. So why hasn't that been shown? Simple, it would show convincingly that the claims are bogus. And second, the entire concept is nothing but an ill conceived straw man. "
Its always easy with the mouth. Why don't you show us then since your so smart and obviously know better? You talk but you can't back anything up. To the rest of us, its clear that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Otherwise, you would be able to do the "simple" stuff that you claim to be able to do, but clearly can't. I wouldn't trust you to build a speaker, but if I was a politician, I may let you write my speeches. |
For me 25K would probably mean mbl all the way, hey!
Maybe if I hit the lottery but not likely. As much as I love the good sounds of music, I don't know if I could justify 25K worth of speaker. Maybe in teh great room of some mansion that I will never own. |
|
Even though I have no common sense I cant wait to hear these speakers. and mouthwrench #1 and #2 make me want to hear them that much more. the anticipation is killing me! |
LOL..genius postings I see, you guys should worry about other things then if Vapor is posting or not..idiotic. I'd love to meet you girls are Expona... |
"WT used to be Mihorn, and were selling those so called horns/cones for a while before they made their speakers, to be stuck to any possible monitors. These cannot be just plastered onto a speaker without proper design."
How can you make comments like this on a speaker that you've never heard?
"For people who bought WT, and are happy with it, great, to each his own. But for others "use" common sense."
So for the people that bought WT and are happy with them, you can't count that as using common sense? And you claim to know what common sense is?
You're just like the other one. All talk that you can't back up because you have no experience. Mouthwrench #2. |
Amusing, but not completely unexpected, those without ability to make comments of merit would resort to personal attacks and blindly throw darts in effort to uncover my identity. So who am I? I'm the fly in the ointment, that small but irritating voice that won't go away when manufacturers trot out bogus claims and outright lies. I'm here to set the record straight, and choose the cover of anonymity for purpose of my righteous mission.
Turbulence? You'll have to do better than that. First off, the outlandish claims could easily be proven with a simple calibrated response measurement. Something any speaker manufacturer worth their salt should be doing anyway. So why hasn't that been shown? Simple, it would show convincingly that the claims are bogus. And second, the entire concept is nothing but an ill conceived straw man. Set up the boogieman of turbulence, then knock him down with your saw'd in half port tubes. Except, there is no problem of turbulence, there is no air movement. To imply there is shows a complete lack of understanding of the mechanisms at play. Sound waves are not mass, no fluid is displaced, all they care about is density of the medium they're passing through, and air in this system is non-compressible so constant. The whole argument is implausible, but could be proven quite simply if it had merit ... which it doesn't.
And there are other BIG problems with the smoke stacks. Long areas of constant cross section which will make it act as a Helmholtz resonantor, and have easily measurable resonances (distortion) of their own. And the fact that the physical dimensions of the woofer pipe would limit it from having any effect below (I'm guessing) 500hz.
The drivers Wavetouch use are just fine, good in fact. I've used the SB Woofer and believe it's one of the better mid-bass drivers in it's price range. It is NOT however under any circumstance capable of 94db sensitivity. The Dayton AMT tweeter is also pretty decent, and putting it in a Birch cabinet is admirable. Wavetouch would be better off without those dopey horns, and making non-fabricated claims about the performance. Because that speaker, assuming the crossover is proper, could stand on it's out at $2000 without the aura of BS surrounding it. |
Vapor might have some cosmetic issues, every company mentioned has some issues. We are in this for great sound, one thing does stand out. The amount of money spent on speakers at Vapor per the cost is amazing for the consumer. i just did some work and found out there is one speaker company who's mark up is close to 70 percent. That means you are paying 5k for a speaker that cost the retailer 2k. If we think that these markups is giving us good value, then so be it. I'm sure you can find other companies similiar. But audiophiles who have been to the shows have said that Vapor blew them away with the performance. If you are looking for a speaker that has a great finish and such, maybe you should buy furniture or a painting. If I went for Vapor, i'd go with a great speaker in a very plain finish and have them to listen to and not for the so called nice finish. I'll use this anology, ou can go get your brakes done and a tuneup for your car at the dealer and spend alot or go to a local person and spend less then half. If you want to buy into the bs that is out there and pay the huge markups, then so be it. I'd rather pay my money for excellent sound and value. I purchased the LSA statements and they are good, but the vapor stiff breeze blew it away. I won't do the speakers from a big company again. |
"02-10-15: Vortrex
Zd542 he is making his own speakers... this is Vapor posting under a fake name. They have been caught doing this before (have the screenshots to prove it)."
He must be pretty desperate for business to come here and argue like a little kid. Mines better!! Not its not my speakers are better!! lol. Well Jughead, it looks like you have some good instincts. |
Time will always tell. Or in this case Jughead as well once he gets his I hope. |
Wolfman, do you offer a 40 day in home with your speakers? |
Guys,
Vapour or not, there were interesting facts brought into the discussion. Too bad there are no speaker manufacturers "actively" participating in this discussion. Someone needs to take a chill pill ;)
As far as I can see, the WT design looks absolutely strange, there is a square or a rectangular tweeter which is clamed to be acoutically couple to a round horn?
WT used to be Mihorn, and were selling those so called horns/cones for a while before they made their speakers, to be stuck to any possible monitors. These cannot be just plastered onto a speaker without proper design. I've not heard WT, not am I interested.
For people who bought WT, and are happy with it, great, to each his own. But for others "use" common sense. |
Zd542 he is making his own speakers... this is Vapor posting under a fake name. They have been caught doing this before (have the screenshots to prove it). |
Onemanwolfpack,
"From now on, expect me to poke my head in whenever I see bogus claims.
Onemanwolfpack (Answers | This Thread)"
That's a good idea. Maybe you didn't see my other post. Why don't we start off by looking at this bogus claim.
"02-09-15: Zd542
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? "
I'll ask again. If you're so good, where's your designs? There's people who talk, and people that do. The only tool you have is a mouth wrench. |
I find the "turbulence" argument unsatisfactory. |
Ok, I see lots of folks here are striking out here on the 'what-the-heck-are-we-even-looking-at' element of the Wavetouch technology and how it may relate to maker claims, hype, what have you. Having lived with the GT's now since June I'm sure I've had the advantage over you guys of being able to audition them under controlled enough conditions. When you do that you realize right away that something about the technology is in fact uniquely special, but it still may be a trick identifying from there exactly how they do what they do. Only recently I think I've begun to confidently get a handle on what I suspect is at work.
I know the diagrams on his website look pretty confusing, or pretty confused, if that's your take. But, if you look at his descriptions you can begin to tell that all he's really describing in the area immediately in front of each driver (say, the first 6-8" out or possibly a little farther) is the phenomenon of air turbulence. This is what you want to focus on. It is really the key to unlocking everything about the design. Yes, the numbers do at first appear to be too good to be true. But, if you can wrap your mind around this one phenomenon he is trying to describe, then the numbers do in fact add up very well, indeed. But, it will help a great deal with your understanding if you do your best to visualize in 3D what is really going on with turbulence. Think of turbulence as wave cancellation, which it is, but it just may not be as orderly or symmetrical as we may typically think of it in regard to, say, the front-to-back wave cancellation of a bass driver on an open baffle. Turbulence in this case is responsible for degrading the integrity of the newly launched sound wave from the driver. In every speaker design. Normally the turbulence is caused by the very act of the diaphragm launching the waveform...creation and destruction at the same moment. The more turbulence the more degradation of the waveform and therefore of the sound quality in all sonic categories. This is the problem that the Mihorns solve. It isn't that the GT's are creating sensitivity where there was none before. It's that the Mihorns are allowing very much more of the Inherent sensitivity of each driver to pass through them minus that level of degradation. IOW, the inherent sensitivity is being preserved. So, no, the laws of physics have neither been broken nor reinvented. The Iron Law is still very much in effect. The only things that have been removed from the equation are these purely physical (not electro-mechanical) losses that traditionally we have always had to put up with. It may not be so easy to grasp this from the numbers because we are so accustomed to seeing the rules, like the Iron Law, dictate less impressive performance compromises for cabinets of this size, but overcoming turbulence in this way can evidently be quite the game changer. Realize that the implication is that essentially our traditional measurements of driver or speaker sensitivity can now be thought of, in a rather real sense, as 'skewed' in light of this new information. Make no mistake, this is by definition altogether something new in the world. To my knowledge nothing like it has ever been done before. This is a genuinely innovative approach and I believe (at whatever point it begins to happen) that other companies and other audiophiles or reviewers are going to be talking about this technology...and probably for a long time to come.
But, this effect of smoothing out the airflow so that it both speeds up (apparently) the wave launch into the room while allowing those waves to be more intact and coherent upon reaching the lp, is evidently a significantly large one, large enough to do a number of things here all at once. Note that the radically improved Efficiency (not sensitivity) of this speaker system, the noticeably improved sound quality (again, waveforms that are more stable, accelerated and more coherent which in turn is improving the sound quality across the board) and the bass extension and dynamics in such a small cabinet (and yes, BTW, I can in fact confirm for you that the rolloff point for the GT is between 40-45Hz and no higher) are actually all directly related to each other...! It may be a bit of a Rubik's cube to think of it that way, but that appears to me to be what Alex has done. The entire design and all the innovation that goes with it hinges on the successful amelioration of the problem of air turbulence in front of the drivers. And there are no noticeable drawbacks with the sound to speak of, with the Mihorns installed.
If you've been to the website, you've probably seen the videos there of the GT's that have been set up and are playing outdoors. This is not to demonstrate that GT's make swell poolside speakers, but that they can do something pretty remarkable - they can actually sound pretty decent in a nearly anechoic environment. This is where perhaps every other design will fall flat on its face. It is the Mihorn's ability to deliver a fully fleshed out, fast, clean, dynamic, coherent, direct sound that is what is being displayed here.
Whether or not the GT's are your cuppa is up to you, of course, but I'm just outlaying here what I think may be going on with them. |
