Going for a Phonostage will potentially have the influence on the System in use, to allow the System to reveal its full potential.
I am in agreement that the suspected improvements to be heard through a addition of a Phon' will be a very positive and impressive experience.
A Curve Ball suggestion as a Phonostage to consider looking at and could prove to be well within your Budget is a Mr Nixie DIGNA.
The DIGNA is a Multi Adjustable MM/MC Design, produced in Germany by a very experienced EE with a history in Designing/Producing State of the Art Recording Equipment for an Established Company.
I have the Original DIGNA with me for nearly four years, as a standard version with the ECC 8100 Tubes, it has proven itself as a very worthy Phon' when demonstrated in Bake Off's against other designs that have a much increased asking price.
It received a very good appraisal from an audience at a Bake of where some of the attendees are prominent in the UK HiFi Industry.
My DIGNA has also undergone a Producer Approved Modifcation to enable the use of other Tubes.
I am using Two E88CC Tubes and in my view and others who have become familiar with the Phon', the use of E88CC's has moved the presentation to a complete new Level.
Under this guise it was on a extended loaned to a Local HiFi Group and this become there go to Phon' for their Pre COVID Bi Monthly Meetings.
The Latest versions of the DIGNA come remain with all the very usable adjustments options, as well as a built in Switch for Selecting Valve Types.
There are a few added ancilliaries as well, such as a Power Supply Upgrade or a DC Filter.
It took a Bespoke Designed and Built Phonostage produced for myself,
to have the DIGNA that I own put in the place of a Second Phonostage.
The DIGNA still impresses, and just recently I purchased a very rare set of Vintage E88CC's for it. |
Very cool xcool! Thanks for the update.
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Hi @truex14. Thanks for reminding me to come back to this post. I've been meaning to do it, but was being lazy.
Anyway, I've decided to go with upgrading the phono stage first. I have auditioned 3 phono stages, and let me share my experience here. The 3 phono stages are PS Audio Stellar, Parasound JC3+, and Herron VTPH-2A:
PS Audio Stellar: This is the least expensive of the 3 phono stages, plus with the trade in of my Vincent PHO 701, it's an incredible deal. The Stellar probably sounds the most "exciting or lively" out of the 3. Very forward sounding. Very quiet background. Decent sound stage and bass. Probably a little more analytical sounding than the other 2.
Parasound JC3+: My first impression of the sound was 'silky smooth'. Also very quiet. Good bass response, with a good punchiness. Not super punchy, but I did like the bass. Great open sound stage. Not as exciting sounding as the Stellar, but more musical and easy to listen to.
Herron VTPH-2A: The Herron is just a tiny bit less quiet than the other 2, but still very quiet. I wonder if it is due to the nature of tube amp never going to be as quiet as solid state. Just my unscientific guess. I would describe the sound as very neutral and natural with a bit of warmth. I feel like I'm listening to the music and not the phono preamp. Maybe not as silky smooth, or as punchy as the JC3+, but does sound more musical. a tad warmer, with better sound stage and details. I'm talking about very small difference here comparing to the JC3+.
At the end, I have decided to keep the Herron. It was a very close call between the Herron and the JC3+. I can easily be just as happy with the JC3+, had I not heard the Herron. The Stellar is not a bad sounding preamp, I can probably live with this also, had I not heard the other 2. In my opinion, all 3 phono stages are very good. In the end, it comes down to personal taste. Now that I've owned the Herron for about 2 months, it continues to sound so natural that I really feel that it has disappeared from my analog pipeline.
I'm very happy with my decision to go with the Herron. I have never heard of the Herron until it was mentioned here. There are not a lot of professional reviews out there, but there is certainly a huge fan base in this forum, to a point that makes this a legendary product. I'm glad I was able to purchase one of the very last VTPH-2A. Keith Herron had mentioned to me that he will no longer build any more of this phono stage. I feel like I'm owning a collectible item.
On the turntable side, I have recently decided to purchase the Mofi Ultradeck with the Master Tracker MM cartridge. So far I'm very happy with it. It sounds very open and detail. More quiet than the Project Classic. Definitely an improvement. One thing I really don't like about the Project is the tonearm. it is very finicky. Every time I lower or raise the tonearm, it never goes straight up or down. It always drift to outer edge of the LP. I wonder if it is related to the Anti-skating mechanism. I tried different settings and it still behaves the same. Anyway, I haven't even tried the Mofi with my Hana ML cartridge yet. I think the Master Tracker is doing a pretty good job.
Anyone here owns a Mofi Ultradeck? I would like to hear your experience also.
Hope this helps. Thanks everyone for their suggestions and opinions. I have purchased a few components here based on the information I found in this forum. Thanks again. |
Opinions are like?......
If you can go audition turntables and phono stages rather then listening to the opinions of armchair critics.
You came to the right place for opinions and the wrong place for validation. |
I'm curious as to what direction you went. Also, I'm wondering why there is no mention of speakers in this thread.
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I read that direct drive turntable tends to be noisy because of the motor directly driving the platter. You’d better try to detect anything like that, why don’t you just find someone or some place to spin some records on top class DD turntable? I have 6 of them in my listening room and I have no idea what those people are talking about, because they are (direct drive TTs) absolutely quiet in my system. There are also reviews that shun detachable head shells. Use both types of tonearms, if you think you can use one cartridge forever then you don’t need a headshell, but if you have many cartridges you need removable headshell. Believe me, a cartridge alone (or your phono stage) is what you have to think about, not additional connection via headshell or direct connection to a cartridge. The difference is so small, I bet you can’t detect it in a blind test. |
Direct Drive TT can suffer from "cogging" where electric servo motor is applying force on-off-on etc. to spin platter but this was mainly a issue for cheaper model DD's and had been virtually eliminated in reference vintage DD's this is not a issue in current designs. Servo motors "hunting and pecking" for correct speed can and will introduce noise but this is up for debate as to what effect it has on overall sound. Any TT whether it is belt or thread driven, idler wheel, rim drive or DD has some kind of issue it is trying overcome to spin it's platter at a consistent 33.3 RPM, pick you poison.
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Thanks @avanti1960 . There are quite a few recommendation of the Technics turntable. I love the detachable head shell and speed control. The first turntable I ever got in the late 70's was a Pioneer with similar design: direct drive, detachable head shell, and speed control.
I read that direct drive turntable tends to be noisy because of the motor directly driving the platter. There are also reviews that shun detachable head shells. How has your experience been in regards to motor noise on the Technics?
Thanks. |
Technics 1200GR. You won’t believe how much better your system will sound.
Next would be phono preamp. The sweet spot of the preamp world is the Lehmann Black Cube SE II, clean, dynamic and a huge upgrade from your Vincent.
Outboard linear power supply on the Lehmann is something you do not get elsewhere at the price.
These are not "boutique" picks by any means but are reliable, practical solid sonic performers- if sound is what you are after. |
+1 for a PolyTable Signature and just important Merrill's motor drive system is one of a handful of affordable TT I would consider switching to from my vintage TT but with tonearm added to the mix it is just shy of 5k.
OP if your Classic turntable is the newer design with aluminum sub platter and good speed control variances keep it if not move up to a TT that is quieter with better speed control.
From left field, any TT that is AC motor controlled can use a Long Dog Audio Quartz TT power supply I am truly amazed that it would make that big of a difference.
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Having to mount the cartridge on another turntable would stop some of you from upgrading the turntable? |
The Lamm 2.1 deluxe phnostage is considered by many to be the very very best so start there (used) and then get your turntable. |
I would 2nd (or N-nd) the idea to upgrade phono stage first. I think both the Pro-Ject and the Vincent (a SS stage with a tube buffer) seem like they’re not quite up to the level of your Hana ML. But upgrading the phono stage first would allow you to enjoy significant benefits immediately without even having to re-mount and adjust the Hana all over again.
Good tube phono stages (a real one, not just a tube-buffer built in) show up on the used market often, and they’re a HELL of a lot easier to ship safely than a turntable.
As for Classic-to-Concept I’m not sure that would be just a "lateral move" (I’ll take a Concept over Classic any day), though you should avoid the Clearaudio magnetic bearing arms (go for Satisfy or Tracer at least), and ideally I think you should strive for a bigger upgrade step like the Performance DC in that line. |
Don't overlook the Ayre P5-XE phono pre it's dead silent and will make your Lp's sound spectacular. It should be available in the. $1600 range used, a truly great preformer. |
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Hmm...tough call. The Vincent phono has received a lot of praise, especially for the price. Your TT may be the "weakest" link. Getting a new phono stage would be easier though, since you wouldn't have to remount your cartridge. Try the PS Audio with their 30-day audition period and find out if it makes a big enough difference. Also in your budget are models from Modwright, Tavish Audio Design and the Gold Note PH-10.
For turntables, the Well Tempered Simplex MKII. Amadeus MKII, and some EAT TT models are also within you budget and are well reviewed. Good luck!
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@elliottbnewcombjr I too like having options and being able to change things out and understand that better isn't always "better". I love my Technics SL 1200 MK2 because I can easily swap out cartridges and change the sound. It has a lot of the KAB mods and sounds very nice. I recently picked up a pair of Klipsch Quartet speakers. They are not even close to being as "good" as some of the other speakers I own, but they are the most "fun" speakers and do really shine with vocals and acoustic guitars in ways that the others don't. |
big_greg4
you are right, upgrade that TT. I felt enough people already said that. I write about function, features, flexibility, future options, think long, often not specific recommendations. I know I’m confusing sometimes, seemingly off track, I ask you to remember, I often think of others following a discussion with their own half-related questions, not always specific to OP. If/when I had only 1 tonearm, I want a changeable headshell. Alternate MM with changeable stylus, not to mention, having the option of a true Mono cartridge. Multiple arms let you have alternates ready to go in an instant. That’s a wonderful thing. New TT, I would choose Direct Drive, Quartz, that fits two arms, start with one with a changeable headshell. 2nd arm, now or later, can be non-removable. Alternate cartridge(s) aligned, ready to go with a few adjustments; change to a Mono cartridge if like me you play many Mono LP’s. Having a MM option for LP’s that are keepers but not sonically deserving of the best cartridge, why wear out your non-replaceable MC? That’s why I went from 2 to 3 arms, MC, MM, Mono. And, my MM Shure/SAS is very good as a preferable alternate to my MC for certain types of well engineered content. And, the Shure/SAS’s brush is best for warps. I was just lucky, bit by bit, how mine came together with help here. And pretty clever I might add, squeezing the 3rd arm on my 2 arm plinth! .................................. I thought I would just toss in: "Challenge Your Assumptions". My finally trying MC as example. I know Hana is MC, and highly respected, I am saying, happy, but looking for a change in sound, perhaps an ALTERNATE cartridge ALSO. .................................... Better is Better, again you are right, yet Change doesn’t always have to be ’Better’. My JSE Infinite Slope Model 2’s were the most measurably accurate speakers I have owned, heard em at a show, wanted them for years, got em, loved them for many years. But I missed these horns. I haven’t measured, but I presume less measurably accurate (less better?). I gave the JSE’s to my son. I missed my Tube Amps, was using McIntosh SS MC2250 with JSE’s. These horns let me easily use my 30 wpc tube amps (a bit small for the JSE’s). Tubes less measurably accurate, less better? LP has lower S/N than Digital; R2R tape has ’even less better’ S/N, and yet, here, everyone chooses tubes over SS; LP over CD; R2R Tape over LP. R2R, my noisiest source, is without doubt the best sounding content I have. Least better is best!!! |
I would spend money on phono stage. Herron would be a good choice. If you are looking for used, it may not be easy to find one. Allnic H1202 would be an alternative. There are a few available for sale now.
Once you upgrade phono stage, sooner or later you might feel your turntable is a weak link. (Hana ML and Herron/Allnic are at different leagues compared to your turntable). Then you can worry about upgrading the turntable. |
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. There are very good comments from both sides. Now I have some homework to do. Will post back if I do make a change. Thanks again! |
@elliottbnewcombjr This isn't meant as a putdown, but I'm having a hard time making sense of your dialogue about switching from a MM to MC cart since the OP has a nice MC cart already.
Getting a better turntable is the thing that is most likely to result in better sound quality in terms of more detail, better imaging, soundstaging, timing, etc. or to your point, more of the music getting through. You're correct that changing the cart or the phono stage may result in a more noticeable difference in sonic character, but that's not always the same as an improvement.
Different can be good. Better is usually better. |
The table you have is capable, and the cartridge is quite good.
I think you're going to have to spend north of 4k to get a significant improvement over your current table. Below that, and you're just trading one design compromise for another.
Go for the phono preamp at this point. |
New table for sure. VPI is usually the most mentioned in that price range, but I personally prefer the aesthetics of the Clearaudio Concept w/ Satisfy tonearm.
I would make look at the various online retailers (MusicDirect, HiFi Heaven, Upscale Audio etc.) or local stores and find a good deal on an open box special.
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big_greg OP said: "Just going through some upgrade fever I guess". OP says happy with the Hana. OK, but we can still suggest ideas. I was very happy with my MM Shure/SAS cartridge, then after much resistance, and encouragement here, I tried a MC, via SUT to existing beloved tube phono. Sure GLAD I had my resistance broken! I still use my old Shure on a separate arm. My MC choice was based on both wider channel separation and tighter center balance than the Shure. It’s imaging is why I prefer it. IOW, a different cartridge, as an addition to the Hana, will give the largest audible difference. IMO, a better TT/ARM is essentially ’to do less’ i.e. less vibration, less speed variation, better transmission of groove/stylus down the wire. While ’advisable’ an audible improvement detected, the system sound will be essentially the same. I never saw or heard OP’s Vincent or a Jolida, I looked online, both very versatile, quickie search decent reviews, within OP’s budget, seemed to me just keep the Vincent. Any phono stage change really needs return option, their sound in ____ system is not easily predictable. this looks interesting, MM and MC phono, but no returns https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CARVER-C-1-Sonic-Holography-Preamplifier-w-BOX-Paperwork-NEAR-MINT-... |
Dear @millercarbon : "
vs pure tubey magic... "
certainly you have a wide " imagination " because that " magic " just does not exist and never existed. Can you prove it its existence with true repétitive facts?
R. |
Get the Technics 1200GR.
If getting a phono stage first:
I like really like my Project phono box RS $1700 with outboard self-charging battery power supply. Has XLR outs, is very quiet and detail rich. It is dual mono...settings for both channels and can load capacitance down to 100. Also has 3 gain settings.
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Dear friends: Who of you that are against the OP TT own or owned that same combination:
Pro-ject Classic Turntable
- Hana ML cartridge ? ? ?
Then if you owned then share your first hand experiences with the OP and if not why diminished it in that hard way ! ! ? ?
R.
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So, just a bug to change something, I suggest you try a different cartridge. Of the three items the OP mentioned, he said he's happy with the cartridge. Besides that, it's by far the best component he has in his analog chain. Even if he found something better, it's not going to be anywhere near its full potential on the entry level turntable he owns. The Jolida JD9 is a noisy entry level phono stage that is not very well built. It's a decent entry into the world of tubes, and reasonably priced. I haven't heard the OP's phono stage, but owned a Vincent integrated and the build quality and sonics were much better than the Jolida products I have owned (JD9, JD9 MKII, Fusion preamp). A sideways move at best, more than likely a downgrade. |
You have a well balanced analog set up. Where do you think the weak link is? Not hearing the set up an educated guess would be upgrade the phono preamp. |
Table first. Sure a better phono will 'reveal' what the table is doing but it's harder to know what it is 'not doing'.
TT (new or vintage) at or over $2k is around where it starts to get serious...
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I misread and thought you already have the Clearaudio Concept. That Pro-ject table should definitely be the first thing to go. |
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I would keep the Basic and cartridge then move to a better phono stage for the detail, like a Whest or Graham Slee or any of the ones mentioned above. Depends on your lp collection and how far you intend to go. If my lp collection was big i would go for the better tt/arm combo with same cartridge for start. Still you can sell yours at a reasonable price or trade and with your added budget you could have both.
G |
Get rid of this Pro-Ject Classic toy as soon as possible. |
The turntable is the foundation of your analog chain. The Concept is a nice entry level table. I had one, but didn't keep it long. It was way too sensitive to footfalls in my listening space. While it may be better on more solid footing, that points to a basic weakness of the table, that it isn't well isolated.
Generally speaking, a well engineered turntable with a good tonearm and good isolation with a modest phono stage and cartridge will sound better than a higher end phono stage or cartridge and a modest turntable.
If the turntable and tonearm don't allow the cartridge to perform at its best, the signal that the cartridge sends to the phono stage isn't going to be improved by a better phono stage.
My advice is start with the table, then get a better phono stage. You have a very nice cartridge. |
Replace the Vincent with a more refined phono stage. One that is even more adjustable for gain, loading, etc with a quieter noise floor and not so rolled off. The Vincent is beautiful and lush, it is not particularly detailed. Your table and cart are great. (Former Vincent owner here who loved it till I heard one in the same price range that had much more detail) |
The pro-ject tube box ds2 is no slouch $999, and worth every penny. Infinite choice in adjustments, load impedance on the fly, up to 65 db gain, capacitance adjustments, subsonic filter, can run two turntables, tubed, combo of jfet/tube on the mc section. A duel mono designed for max channel separation. Available with wood sides to match your classic turntable wood choice! Read this review! https://www.hifinews.com/content/pro-ject-tube-box-ds2-phono-preamplifierI own a tube box ds2 with eucalyptus wood side panels, it is beautiful. The sound is glorious, tubey magic. So, in my stable are the previously mentioned tavish the classic, the pro-ject tube box ds2, and the musical fidelity lx lps. All are terrific examples of great design in their respective price range...I’m keeping all three. You are not going to hear much difference by getting rid of your classic turntable, unless you spend somewhere in the 5k and higher range. By getting a clearaudio or what have you...is a lateral move in my opinion. The main difference you would be hearing in a lateral move such as the clearaudio, Rega, technics, etc....is speed differences. For example the Rega is known to run a bit fast, giving the impression of a more dynamic/energetic sound. When you move up the ladder to a 5k or higher TT such as a Linn Sondek, well then you are playing with the big boys, but you will have an empty wallet. I would max out your classic with the phono preamp upgrade. You are already there with the excellent Hana. The guru Michael Fremer gave high praise to the classic sb...similar to your classic... https://www.analogplanet.com/content/pro-ject-classic-sb-superpack-turntable-%E2%80%9Cbrains%E2%80%9..
In fact, there is not a Bad review to be read about either the classic or the classic sb. |
+1 for the Herron VTPH-2A. I absolutely love this phono stage. I did A TON of research prior to purchasing and couldn’t be happier. Call Keith Herron. I did. Super nice guy. He even called me back to troubleshoot a used unit I did not purchase from him after inquiring about buying a new one from him. This is a no brainer if you can afford it. Also, I have the Hana SL with the Clearaudio Concept table hooked up to the Herron. It’s magic. GL!
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Find a dealer where you can demo the alternatives before you buy.
My preference would be to improve the turntable first, as you'll get out what you put in at the front end. But check that out for yourself.
You don't say where you are but in Europe it's possible to pick up a Vertere DG-1 within your budget, and it will knock socks off your current deck. The Clearaudio looks like a good intermediate step. |
There is Nothing wrong with that turntable, it is beautiful and a pleasure to use. however, personally I would have opted for the classic sb with speed box built in. I own the sb classic and hana EL and it is a terrific turntable/cartridge combo. I would look to replace the phono preamp. Get a tavish design the classic or the vintage tubed preamp ($699/$729). The difference is the tubes used with each. I would then also advise you to use a Jensen mc 2rr, a 1:10 sut ($600). The Jensen has a fixed load setting of 430 ohms, perfect for the Hana. Connect the sut output to the MM section of either aforementioned tavish (47 k ohm) and enjoy! Oh, if you get either tavish, change out the tubes for some vintage nos tubes! I’ve got a RCA 7025, GE 12au7, and a Sylvania 5751 installed in my classic and it is great!
One last thing to add to that pro-ject would be the Stein music mat, it is great but expensive @ $249. Available from Galen Carol. For a cheaper mat, I’ve had success with the hide in the sound leather mats, very thin and of high quality.
Both the Jensen sut and the Tavish design preamps are made in the USA. Both companies also pick up the phone and are great to deal with.
The tone arm on the your classic is of a great design. It was chosen by Linn for its $4300 MAJIK. It is also versatile at 13.5 grams effective mass, allowing you a greater choice in cartridges. |
xcool what u described is already a good sign that your current setup is decent.
try a better phonostage I vote |
Hey @ml8764ag Glad to know you love your PHO 701. I’m not entirely unhappy with it. One thing I wish it can do better is the noise floor. I wish it was quieter. I bought a NOS RCA tube and it sounds a little nicer than the stock one, also seems a little warmer.
My issue is that the PHO 701 is my first ever phono stage. I’m curious to see if I can do better. Also, on the digital side, I have a Lumin T2 streamer/DAC, and I think it sounds better than my analog set up. It has a quieter background and a bigger sound stage. Although my analog setup sounds a little more intimate. I guess I want to see if I can improve on my analog set up to ’compete’ with my digital set up. Sounds silly, isn’t it? :-)
Looks like most people think it’s better to upgrade the phono stage first. Will post back if I do make a change. Thanks again!
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none of the above get HRS base for your table...
and yes, I have a Herron, and a Croft.....the list goes on... |
when playing Mc. tonearm get very important. find a tt which works well with Mc. tt like vpi classic, Linn, gives much better analog rounded textured sound without simbilance
technics.. listen first. my experience is otherwise. generally works better for mm.
I also prefer SUT and maybe a tube in general for MC.
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tidal.com w mqa!!!
bluesound node 2i!!!
benchmark dac4!!!
tekton double impacts!!!
raven blackhawk amp!!!
nad m33!!!
krell k300i !!!
just kidding...
i would upgrade the phono stage first...
good luck
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IMO Phono Stage first.
Parasound JC3
Clearaudio Concept
Concept MC Cartridge
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Upgrade your turntable.
Technics SL-1210GR Direct Drive is a great tt at about $1700.
Rest of your system is fine, no need to change anything. |
