Turntable! Get that new $1800 Technics! Much better than the Clearaudio TT! Your cartridge and phono stage are fine! Leave them be!
Which to upgrade first: Turntable or Phono Preamp
Hi, I just recently got back into vinyl about 8 months ago after switching to digital 30+ years ago. My current setup is as follows:
- Pro-ject Classic Turntable
- Hana ML cartridge
- Vincent PHO 701 phono preamp
I'm very happy with the Hana, but am thinking about upgrading either the turntable or the phono stage. Although I'm not entirely unhappy with the current setup. Just going through some upgrade fever I guess. The question I have is which one do you think I should upgrade first: Turntable or the Phone stage?
I'm thinking about the Clearaudio Concept turntable and the PS Audio Stellar phono stage, but I'm open to suggestion. I'm hoping to spend under 3k on either.
Anyway, the real question is whether anyone thinks which upgrade will give me more bang for the buck: Turntable or Phono stage?
Thanks very much in advance.
- Pro-ject Classic Turntable
- Hana ML cartridge
- Vincent PHO 701 phono preamp
I'm very happy with the Hana, but am thinking about upgrading either the turntable or the phono stage. Although I'm not entirely unhappy with the current setup. Just going through some upgrade fever I guess. The question I have is which one do you think I should upgrade first: Turntable or the Phone stage?
I'm thinking about the Clearaudio Concept turntable and the PS Audio Stellar phono stage, but I'm open to suggestion. I'm hoping to spend under 3k on either.
Anyway, the real question is whether anyone thinks which upgrade will give me more bang for the buck: Turntable or Phono stage?
Thanks very much in advance.
63 responses Add your response
The Vincent will be a baby step and the Concept will be a lateral move. Thin gruel for the money. The Decware ZP3 will be a huge leap forward, and well within budget even if you do need to get the SUT for your Hana. Lifetime warranty, perfect for what may well be a foundation component you will keep many years, if not decades. https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZP3.htm |
Here's my thinking on this. Upgrading the turntable at this point will tell you nothing about your phono stage. However, upgrading your phono stage will allow you to hear if there are any problems with your turntable/arm combination much better. Go for the phono stage. Get the best you can afford. The Hana is a really nice cartridge. Can't help you with what phono stage, as I'm looking at them too, but I have 3 on my short list so far. The PS Audio Stellar Phono on the low end, the Parasound JC 3+ in the middle, and the Herron VTPH-2A on the upper end. Good luck. |
Get the Herron. What I have, fabulous, highly recommended. Only reason I didn't, a bit above the OP budget. Probably if side by side it would come down to one is pure tube (and triode at that!) the Herron does use JFET. I think. Something SS in there. So just that little hint, vs pure tubey magic. Total keeper either way. Next step up from there would probably be SG1. |
You guys stop pushing this Herron/PS Audio/whatever you got on every occasion. Your credibility suffer. There are many phono stages under $3k, especially if used is acceptable but even if only new. You don't even know the rest of the man's system and his sound preferences, why the hell do you jump with recommendations ? |
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I might be leaning towards phono stage first. Part of the reason is that I don't have a lot of understanding of how much does a turntable matter. In my mind, the cartridge matters more than a turntable in terms of SQ, as long as the TT has reasonably low noise level and tracks well enough. But I can be wrong. I have heard about Herron. Seems to have some good reviews in this forum. I will give it a serious look. I do like the PS Audio 30 days home trail. Fairly low risk. Thanks! |
Love the Vincent pho-701!!!.... just bought a Stellar phono to try. OP...I definitely would be interested in a follow up from you if you move away from the Vincent. I have tried quite a few phono stages (some much more expensive)...and none have surpassed it in my system....to my ears. To me ....the 700 and 701 are giant slayers! |
I wouldn't start with upgrading the phono stage first, as it will unveil flaws up the chain (cartridge, tonearm and turntable). Your plan to incrementally upgrade will be out the door. I will not name which brand and model. Your cartridge is a good one and can be the last component to consider upgrading. I would upgrade the turntable first. Whenever you upgrade a component, always choose the best you can afford. You should hear incremental improvement in SQ. Live with the improved SQ for a period of time. Perhaps you won't need to upgrade for a little while. When you're feeling the itch and start to hearing the limitation of your system again, upgrade your phono stage next. |
when playing Mc. tonearm get very important. find a tt which works well with Mc. tt like vpi classic, Linn, gives much better analog rounded textured sound without simbilance technics.. listen first. my experience is otherwise. generally works better for mm. I also prefer SUT and maybe a tube in general for MC. |
Hey @ml8764ag Glad to know you love your PHO 701. I’m not entirely unhappy with it. One thing I wish it can do better is the noise floor. I wish it was quieter. I bought a NOS RCA tube and it sounds a little nicer than the stock one, also seems a little warmer. My issue is that the PHO 701 is my first ever phono stage. I’m curious to see if I can do better. Also, on the digital side, I have a Lumin T2 streamer/DAC, and I think it sounds better than my analog set up. It has a quieter background and a bigger sound stage. Although my analog setup sounds a little more intimate. I guess I want to see if I can improve on my analog set up to ’compete’ with my digital set up. Sounds silly, isn’t it? :-) Looks like most people think it’s better to upgrade the phono stage first. Will post back if I do make a change. Thanks again! |
There is Nothing wrong with that turntable, it is beautiful and a pleasure to use. however, personally I would have opted for the classic sb with speed box built in. I own the sb classic and hana EL and it is a terrific turntable/cartridge combo. I would look to replace the phono preamp. Get a tavish design the classic or the vintage tubed preamp ($699/$729). The difference is the tubes used with each. I would then also advise you to use a Jensen mc 2rr, a 1:10 sut ($600). The Jensen has a fixed load setting of 430 ohms, perfect for the Hana. Connect the sut output to the MM section of either aforementioned tavish (47 k ohm) and enjoy! Oh, if you get either tavish, change out the tubes for some vintage nos tubes! I’ve got a RCA 7025, GE 12au7, and a Sylvania 5751 installed in my classic and it is great! One last thing to add to that pro-ject would be the Stein music mat, it is great but expensive @ $249. Available from Galen Carol. For a cheaper mat, I’ve had success with the hide in the sound leather mats, very thin and of high quality. Both the Jensen sut and the Tavish design preamps are made in the USA. Both companies also pick up the phone and are great to deal with. The tone arm on the your classic is of a great design. It was chosen by Linn for its $4300 MAJIK. It is also versatile at 13.5 grams effective mass, allowing you a greater choice in cartridges. |
Find a dealer where you can demo the alternatives before you buy. My preference would be to improve the turntable first, as you'll get out what you put in at the front end. But check that out for yourself. You don't say where you are but in Europe it's possible to pick up a Vertere DG-1 within your budget, and it will knock socks off your current deck. The Clearaudio looks like a good intermediate step. |
+1 for the Herron VTPH-2A. I absolutely love this phono stage. I did A TON of research prior to purchasing and couldn’t be happier. Call Keith Herron. I did. Super nice guy. He even called me back to troubleshoot a used unit I did not purchase from him after inquiring about buying a new one from him. This is a no brainer if you can afford it. Also, I have the Hana SL with the Clearaudio Concept table hooked up to the Herron. It’s magic. GL! |
The pro-ject tube box ds2 is no slouch $999, and worth every penny. Infinite choice in adjustments, load impedance on the fly, up to 65 db gain, capacitance adjustments, subsonic filter, can run two turntables, tubed, combo of jfet/tube on the mc section. A duel mono designed for max channel separation. Available with wood sides to match your classic turntable wood choice! Read this review! https://www.hifinews.com/content/pro-ject-tube-box-ds2-phono-preamplifier I own a tube box ds2 with eucalyptus wood side panels, it is beautiful. The sound is glorious, tubey magic. So, in my stable are the previously mentioned tavish the classic, the pro-ject tube box ds2, and the musical fidelity lx lps. All are terrific examples of great design in their respective price range...I’m keeping all three. You are not going to hear much difference by getting rid of your classic turntable, unless you spend somewhere in the 5k and higher range. By getting a clearaudio or what have you...is a lateral move in my opinion. The main difference you would be hearing in a lateral move such as the clearaudio, Rega, technics, etc....is speed differences. For example the Rega is known to run a bit fast, giving the impression of a more dynamic/energetic sound. When you move up the ladder to a 5k or higher TT such as a Linn Sondek, well then you are playing with the big boys, but you will have an empty wallet. I would max out your classic with the phono preamp upgrade. You are already there with the excellent Hana. The guru Michael Fremer gave high praise to the classic sb...similar to your classic... https://www.analogplanet.com/content/pro-ject-classic-sb-superpack-turntable-%E2%80%9Cbrains%E2%80%9.. In fact, there is not a Bad review to be read about either the classic or the classic sb. |
Replace the Vincent with a more refined phono stage. One that is even more adjustable for gain, loading, etc with a quieter noise floor and not so rolled off. The Vincent is beautiful and lush, it is not particularly detailed. Your table and cart are great. (Former Vincent owner here who loved it till I heard one in the same price range that had much more detail) |
The turntable is the foundation of your analog chain. The Concept is a nice entry level table. I had one, but didn't keep it long. It was way too sensitive to footfalls in my listening space. While it may be better on more solid footing, that points to a basic weakness of the table, that it isn't well isolated. Generally speaking, a well engineered turntable with a good tonearm and good isolation with a modest phono stage and cartridge will sound better than a higher end phono stage or cartridge and a modest turntable. If the turntable and tonearm don't allow the cartridge to perform at its best, the signal that the cartridge sends to the phono stage isn't going to be improved by a better phono stage. My advice is start with the table, then get a better phono stage. You have a very nice cartridge. |
I would keep the Basic and cartridge then move to a better phono stage for the detail, like a Whest or Graham Slee or any of the ones mentioned above. Depends on your lp collection and how far you intend to go. If my lp collection was big i would go for the better tt/arm combo with same cartridge for start. Still you can sell yours at a reasonable price or trade and with your added budget you could have both. G |
Your existing Vincent phono seems like a true Gem with a lot of versatility. So, just a bug to change something, I suggest you try a different cartridge. If you decide to try another tube phono, you might consider a tube preamp with MM phono, and use a SUT into the preamp's phono. Then you can compare your Vincent to the Preamp's phono. I always advise flexibility for current and future cartridges, this Jolida is very versatile https://www.jolida.com/product/jd-9-ii-phono-preamp One currently on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jolida-JD9-II-Tube-Phono-Preamplifier-w-Preamp-Upgrade/254895432383 |
So, just a bug to change something, I suggest you try a different cartridge.Of the three items the OP mentioned, he said he's happy with the cartridge. Besides that, it's by far the best component he has in his analog chain. Even if he found something better, it's not going to be anywhere near its full potential on the entry level turntable he owns. The Jolida JD9 is a noisy entry level phono stage that is not very well built. It's a decent entry into the world of tubes, and reasonably priced. I haven't heard the OP's phono stage, but owned a Vincent integrated and the build quality and sonics were much better than the Jolida products I have owned (JD9, JD9 MKII, Fusion preamp). A sideways move at best, more than likely a downgrade. |
Get the Technics 1200GR. If getting a phono stage first: I like really like my Project phono box RS $1700 with outboard self-charging battery power supply. Has XLR outs, is very quiet and detail rich. It is dual mono...settings for both channels and can load capacitance down to 100. Also has 3 gain settings. |
big_greg OP said: "Just going through some upgrade fever I guess". OP says happy with the Hana. OK, but we can still suggest ideas. I was very happy with my MM Shure/SAS cartridge, then after much resistance, and encouragement here, I tried a MC, via SUT to existing beloved tube phono. Sure GLAD I had my resistance broken! I still use my old Shure on a separate arm. My MC choice was based on both wider channel separation and tighter center balance than the Shure. It’s imaging is why I prefer it. IOW, a different cartridge, as an addition to the Hana, will give the largest audible difference. IMO, a better TT/ARM is essentially ’to do less’ i.e. less vibration, less speed variation, better transmission of groove/stylus down the wire. While ’advisable’ an audible improvement detected, the system sound will be essentially the same. I never saw or heard OP’s Vincent or a Jolida, I looked online, both very versatile, quickie search decent reviews, within OP’s budget, seemed to me just keep the Vincent. Any phono stage change really needs return option, their sound in ____ system is not easily predictable. this looks interesting, MM and MC phono, but no returns https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CARVER-C-1-Sonic-Holography-Preamplifier-w-BOX-Paperwork-NEAR-MINT-... |
New table for sure. VPI is usually the most mentioned in that price range, but I personally prefer the aesthetics of the Clearaudio Concept w/ Satisfy tonearm. I would make look at the various online retailers (MusicDirect, HiFi Heaven, Upscale Audio etc.) or local stores and find a good deal on an open box special. |
@elliottbnewcombjr This isn't meant as a putdown, but I'm having a hard time making sense of your dialogue about switching from a MM to MC cart since the OP has a nice MC cart already. Getting a better turntable is the thing that is most likely to result in better sound quality in terms of more detail, better imaging, soundstaging, timing, etc. or to your point, more of the music getting through. You're correct that changing the cart or the phono stage may result in a more noticeable difference in sonic character, but that's not always the same as an improvement. Different can be good. Better is usually better. |
I would spend money on phono stage. Herron would be a good choice. If you are looking for used, it may not be easy to find one. Allnic H1202 would be an alternative. There are a few available for sale now. Once you upgrade phono stage, sooner or later you might feel your turntable is a weak link. (Hana ML and Herron/Allnic are at different leagues compared to your turntable). Then you can worry about upgrading the turntable. |
big_greg4 you are right, upgrade that TT. I felt enough people already said that. I write about function, features, flexibility, future options, think long, often not specific recommendations. I know I’m confusing sometimes, seemingly off track, I ask you to remember, I often think of others following a discussion with their own half-related questions, not always specific to OP. If/when I had only 1 tonearm, I want a changeable headshell. Alternate MM with changeable stylus, not to mention, having the option of a true Mono cartridge. Multiple arms let you have alternates ready to go in an instant. That’s a wonderful thing. New TT, I would choose Direct Drive, Quartz, that fits two arms, start with one with a changeable headshell. 2nd arm, now or later, can be non-removable. Alternate cartridge(s) aligned, ready to go with a few adjustments; change to a Mono cartridge if like me you play many Mono LP’s. Having a MM option for LP’s that are keepers but not sonically deserving of the best cartridge, why wear out your non-replaceable MC? That’s why I went from 2 to 3 arms, MC, MM, Mono. And, my MM Shure/SAS is very good as a preferable alternate to my MC for certain types of well engineered content. And, the Shure/SAS’s brush is best for warps. I was just lucky, bit by bit, how mine came together with help here. And pretty clever I might add, squeezing the 3rd arm on my 2 arm plinth! .................................. I thought I would just toss in: "Challenge Your Assumptions". My finally trying MC as example. I know Hana is MC, and highly respected, I am saying, happy, but looking for a change in sound, perhaps an ALTERNATE cartridge ALSO. .................................... Better is Better, again you are right, yet Change doesn’t always have to be ’Better’. My JSE Infinite Slope Model 2’s were the most measurably accurate speakers I have owned, heard em at a show, wanted them for years, got em, loved them for many years. But I missed these horns. I haven’t measured, but I presume less measurably accurate (less better?). I gave the JSE’s to my son. I missed my Tube Amps, was using McIntosh SS MC2250 with JSE’s. These horns let me easily use my 30 wpc tube amps (a bit small for the JSE’s). Tubes less measurably accurate, less better? LP has lower S/N than Digital; R2R tape has ’even less better’ S/N, and yet, here, everyone chooses tubes over SS; LP over CD; R2R Tape over LP. R2R, my noisiest source, is without doubt the best sounding content I have. Least better is best!!! |
@elliottbnewcombjr I too like having options and being able to change things out and understand that better isn't always "better". I love my Technics SL 1200 MK2 because I can easily swap out cartridges and change the sound. It has a lot of the KAB mods and sounds very nice. I recently picked up a pair of Klipsch Quartet speakers. They are not even close to being as "good" as some of the other speakers I own, but they are the most "fun" speakers and do really shine with vocals and acoustic guitars in ways that the others don't. |
Hmm...tough call. The Vincent phono has received a lot of praise, especially for the price. Your TT may be the "weakest" link. Getting a new phono stage would be easier though, since you wouldn't have to remount your cartridge. Try the PS Audio with their 30-day audition period and find out if it makes a big enough difference. Also in your budget are models from Modwright, Tavish Audio Design and the Gold Note PH-10. For turntables, the Well Tempered Simplex MKII. Amadeus MKII, and some EAT TT models are also within you budget and are well reviewed. Good luck! |
One idea I mentioned was to find a tube preamp with terrific phono, and get a SUT for your Hana This full featured Scott just popped up on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/H-H-Scott-Type-130-Pre-amplifier-Super-clean-All-original-Telefunken-tubes/... |
just have to tell somebody, I always check 'newly listed' for fun, this tube preamp just popped up, has 3 phono inputs https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynavector-DV3000-Gold-Tube-Preamplifier/114721713663?hash=item1ab5f26dff:g... |
I would 2nd (or N-nd) the idea to upgrade phono stage first. I think both the Pro-Ject and the Vincent (a SS stage with a tube buffer) seem like they’re not quite up to the level of your Hana ML. But upgrading the phono stage first would allow you to enjoy significant benefits immediately without even having to re-mount and adjust the Hana all over again. Good tube phono stages (a real one, not just a tube-buffer built in) show up on the used market often, and they’re a HELL of a lot easier to ship safely than a turntable. As for Classic-to-Concept I’m not sure that would be just a "lateral move" (I’ll take a Concept over Classic any day), though you should avoid the Clearaudio magnetic bearing arms (go for Satisfy or Tracer at least), and ideally I think you should strive for a bigger upgrade step like the Performance DC in that line. |
