i would (briefly) like to sum up a few issues regarding Mark Levinson amplifiers and i base this on my own personal experiences as well-
1. industry leader in amazing-sounding solid state. Huge pride of ownership (at least for me).
2. owned a 23.5 stereo amp that made some of the sweetest music i have ever heard in my home. beautiful, compact, elegant, superb bass, a true dual-monoraul design.
3. my next experience was with a pair of 33H mono blocks. they were nothing less than amazing sounding- DYNAMICS! TRANSPARENCY. EFFORTLESS,
one day one channel went out on me. the repair was quite expensive but the authorized service (Pyramid) was very thorough and explained what had gone wrong in detail. the shipping was also horribly expensive, too. but in the end it was still worth it. the amps did wonderful things (they Sang) through Egglestons, and then Von Schweikert speakers.
4. other levinson pieces included transports, DACS, CDP's, all performed great.
there was an incident involving the #37 transport which was unreasonably expensive to repair and i was just as upset about it as everyone else. i know these transports had a limited life-span and created a lot of negative press, but they also happened to sound really good. At the same time, other manufacturers' players also developed problems- they just didn't have the higher-than-normal expectations that the ML brand generated.
the company has undergone ownership changes and those incredibly-high expectations have suffered, but once again it's still a pretty esoteric brand. and the clean aesthetics they still insist on (instead of worthless/even silly gimmicks) have my enduring respect. and they still have a lot of product categories to re-introduce (such as an internet-ready DAC, or an Integrated Amplifier, a new Phono Stage, etc.)
unfortunately (as M.Fremer recently discovered reviewing the Dartzeel Monoblocks)
NOBODY is perfect. i can't imagine what i would do if something like that happened to me (i won't be spending that insane amount of money anyway- $72,000/channel?). i thought that sort of thing only happened with tubes. It's nice to know he thought they sounded good, though..
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Glai,
Ken was over the first week that I received my X350.5 (brand new) from the dealer. I told him that it wasn't even burnt-in yet. But he took a listen, went back and put his 432 on sale. A week later, he had a X350.5 in his living room.
Performance-wise, we all preferred the X350.5 driving his Dynaudio C-4 over the ML432.
The reliability issue was only with the 33X series (331-336). I have not heard of any issues with the 400 and the 500 series.
Changing amps again?
FrankC |
Wow, did catch this lively thread until now. I guess people will believe whatever they want to believe.
I personally experienced the Levinson nightmare three times a few years back, and have documented my experiences in detail here back then.
There were two core issues:
1/ Reliability with the 33X series amplifiers: The caps were known to break down. The ML tech I spoke with confessed that it had to do with both design and reliability of supplied capacitors from the original supplier. My #333 had been "recapped" 3 times. Twice by me, and once by the dealer before I bought it. (Found that out through the service log from the service tech). I had to pay out of pocket for the third replacement. Less than a year after my last repair, ML issued a note internally regarding the capacitor failures and extended the warranties on capacitors for 5 additional years.(Basically free of charge for any capacitor failure on 33X amps.)
Again, the issue is with the 33X series only. I have not heard of any issues with the 33, 33H, or any other models.
2/ Shady service practice: As pointed out earlier, you were required to pay a high charge in advance before ML would issue a RMA. Both my amp (#333), and transport (#37) went into service a week apart. The tray on my transport was not closing properly. The tech assured me on the phone that it just required some calibration and would not reach the maximum amount. At the end, I received the max bill on both the transport ($1,400+/-) and amp($1,100+/-) after the fact even though I had requested that they notify me before fixing anything. They cited that they had to replace my entire transport mechanism and upgrade the software. Few months later, while talking to another audiophile, I found out that ML had issued a technical bulletin to all the dealers indicating the fix for this issue a few years back - a push of few buttons on the faceplate to initiate recalibrate. He had also pulled the notification from the internet and sent to me.
I've since traded my amp for a Pass X3505. I still have the #36 and #37 in my second system. I've written the company off ever since that experience. Spending that kind of money ($10k in the late 90s) to get a faulty design/built amp certainly is unacceptable. But what really pissed me off was the shady service practice. Maybe they have improved since, but ML would need to do a lot to convince most of us ex-owners to go back to their product.
FrankC |
Lots of what I just read in this thread is old horror stories, some are even true. Harman has shuffled things around more than once in the last several years.
But Levinson Lexicon Proceed service stabilized years ago after High Tech Masters was let go. Turn around is reasonable if not good and we can make the equipment more reliable than ever.
For example some of the No33 were known to have buzz in the speakers. We now know the massive transormers leak enough flux to be audible in a speaker NOT connected to the 33. just loop the speaker wire around the 33. similarly you can loop your wires around the the 33 and cancel the internal buzz picked up. NO BUZZ
just contact us for more information and support.
Pyramid Audio or The Service Bench
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I have heard that the new 532H, 531H are very reliable. Anyone know of the reliability on the more expensive ref 532 amp?
Thanks |
But the caps yourself and find a qualified repairman and ship the amp to them. Pretty damn simple if you want to keep the amp. They are very good amps but not to everyone's tastes. It's that simple because I know there are some ML haters here and you have to overlook that fact. |
I've called most of the service centers on their web site anywhere from $800 to $2500 not shipped pretty messed up....so I may start amp shopping |
05-29-12: Rockitman
Harman is to blame. When they abandoned the Madrigal Labs products in terms of service, I abandoned ML. Hence one of the answers to the question on the title of this thread. |
Harman is to blame. When they abandoned the Madrigal Labs products in terms of service, I abandoned ML. |
Abruce
I recommend not using Levinson 332 any more. The reason if the caps explode it will take out the three surge resistors on the VSMB board. Then you have to replace many other parts including surge resistors and many small caps 68uF/63V and .01uf. 680uF on VSMB and VG Boards.
I am located in St Paul Minnesota. You can always send it to Levinson repair center. But very expensive for shipping and repair. |
Thanks not sure there is anybody locally(Iowa) that will work on it |
Abruce
To replace all 8 Caps it will cost about $700.
The original Philips filer caps can be replaced with USA made Cornell Dubilier with higher capacitance with 125V surge. Also the original Philips 1900uF/150V small regulator caps can be replaced with Cornell Dubilier cap at 1900uF/250V. These caps are special ordered from factory.
I have these caps. You can send the amp to me i will repair it. But the problem the amp total weight is over 150 pounds. Very expensive to ship. Your best choice is to have a local tech replace the caps to keep the expenses very low. |
Renjy651
Any idea what that will cost, and what should they be replace with?
Thanks |
Abruce- Your Levinson 332 filter caps are going bad. Either one of the 50000uF/100V Philips Filter cap or 1900uF/150V Regulator caps need to be replaced. You need to replace all 8 caps in filter supply so the amp will never have any problems. |
Abruce,,, I'd first take it to someone locally for an evaluation. Our local ML dealer as an in house tech and can fix most problems inexpensively. |
So my 332 all of a sudden developed a hum in one chanel
Should I move on and not even try to repair it
That's a lot of money to fix it
What should I be looking at? |
So if I can get him he needs ventilation...I can do that...no biggie. |
From what I've read about his book "Satisfaction" he might be in danger of
"overheating.". |
Just a note on a related topic: I would like to purchase Mark Levinson himself as I'm looking for a bass player. Or at least rent him, as long as his chops are up, he plays cleanly and powerfully, and doesn't overheat. |
Timsorosk,
I was not upset. I'm glad you have nothing but great experiences. That's what I had before Madrigal was kicked out. And it was Harman's disregard for the customer that made me eventually sell my stuff. They did send a bottle of wine and a loaner amplifier eventually. But you would not believe how many fabrications I was told about those amps and why they were taking so long to service them. It turned out they "lost" them.
Thanks Tpreaves and and Charles1dad. It took the patience of Job not to go off on them at the time. So I ended up writing letters to the President of Harman and Levinson before I got everything all straightened out.
Alls well that ends well as I have a much better system now.
I just wanted to record this info for those interested.
I'm hopeful that Levinison might recover as they are at least offering new product now. But I'd really watch what Harman might be up to, as Harman was/is for sale I believe and who knows what then could happen.
Thanks for reading.
Steve |
05-22-12: Charles1dad
Sgr,
I`m impressed by your exceptional patience and fortitude. Two years just to get a faulty amplifier repaired/replaced! That`s more than I could ever put up with. I agree completely. |
Sgr,, I apologize if my responses upset you , it was not my intention. I am not questioning your experiences, your posts sound very credible and true. But our experiences with ML are quite different, I hope you can see and respect that. |
Sgr,
I`m impressed by your exceptional patience and fortitude. Two years just to get a faulty amplifier repaired/replaced! That`s more than I could ever put up with. |
Tmsorosk,
I take issue with your insistence that Levinson has no reliability, service, and credibility issues. I have documented my experiences above and I assure you that I could tell you many other true stories from people I know since Harman kicked the Madrigal out of Levinson. I myself experienced my pair of Levinson 436 amps falling into a black hole for a year and a half at which point they were returned to me still broken, returned broken again, and then broken again, to have them send me a new pair because of their ineptness, which also DOA on arrival. It took 2 years to get the amps back and working. Then there were my friend's #33 Reference amps which gave him a similar experience at 350lbs this was no laughing manner. I helped uncrate, setup, and recrate these amps several times much to my bodie's apparent displeasure, but when the 33s sang there was nothing like them.
To get my Levinson Reference 31.5 serviced at one of the service centers cost $1400.00 up front no matter what the issue was. This had to be charged on your credit card before they would issue an RA. You were only supposed to be charged what it cost to fix it, but, you guessed it, the repair of the product always took the full amount charged.
I have a good friend that worked at the largest volume Levinson dealer in the world at this time. Levinson could not supply them with parts or product for months after the Harman coup, up to a year and a half in some cases. The dealer ended up eating the cost of these products and supplying the custys with brand new alternate and equivalent products to keep their relationship good with custys. As a result, the company kicked out Levinson for its executives had no answers as to what was going to happen to the company. My friend sold his complete Levinson Reference system and counseled me to do the same with mine which I did with lots of regret. A Reference system consisted of the #33 amps, #32 preamp,#31.5 DAC,#30.6 DAC and the Revel Salons which adds up to about a $100 grand or so. I had everything accept the 33amps but used 2 pair of 436 amps to biamp the Salons. In a lot of ways I still miss this system. It looked and sounded awesome.
Since dumping Mark Glazier and the fine folks that made Madrigal (Levinson, Proceed, and Revel) (For some reason Harman treated Revel differently. Maybe because they had a separate plant in CA under designer Kevin Voecks. ) Levinson has had several presidents and been relocated at least 3 times that I know of. I believe Levinson is now made at the Crown plant and technology is shared. I believe service is still provided as outlined above.
Levinson under Madrigal was at its zenith in the 80s. Mark Levinson was long gone from the company by that time and Mark Glazier was the president and steward of the brand. Owning Levinson at this time was pure pleasure. The folks at Madrigal were unmatched as representatives of the line. After you called with questions the techs would soon know your name, served as audio consultants and were always there to provide advice on system setup and upgrades. They were probably one of the best in the business at that time. Levinson did not belong to the new product each year club. Because of their painstaking design work and attention to detail it might be several before a new upgraded design would be implemented. Many components could be upgraded at the dealers or the factory without having to buy a whole new component.
As for the capacitors going bad in the 300 series amps, it is true that the vendor of the caps Levinson used sold Levinson a great deal of caps which did not have a long longevity. Once this problem was known, Levinson under Madrigal, would replace the caps at no charge to the owners and I believe would pay the freight one way. I'm not sure if Harman Levinson would do the same. I doubt it.
So if you include the above paragraphs I've written you have the well and documented Levinson story. There are signs that Harman is trying to revive the line and restore some of its dignity once again. There new product and new dealers have been added. I was told that the main reason Harman is still making Levinson equipment is because the Levinson car audio is such a cash cow.
I still take out my deluxe coffee table book which Levinson Madrigal produced for the Reference Line and look through it fondly and think about collecting each piece again. As an audio brochure I've still not seen its equal.
I would be glad to try to supply the answers to any questions about the line you have as obviously I know a little bit about the product and company. |
Maybe it's a geographical thing, Threshold was not well known around here. |
Tmsorosk, I humbly agree to disagree. I will agree that Krell and Levinson spent the most money on advertising and marketing, but you can't convince me that Rowland was a bigger name than Threshold 'back in the day'. |
Charles1dad,,, I have heard of some problems with the 300 series and as you said not everyone had this problem, infact I might suggest that only a few had a problem. My #332 was 10 years old when I sold it to a friend, it's still working without issue. Also had two friends with the same series that had no issues, sometimes things just get blown out of proportion, the internet hasn't helped.
It probably helped that the units in question were not turned off.
Jmcgrogan2,,, there were no doubt many other great brands, but if you asked 9 out of ten audiophiles what were the top three brands you would get that response. Rightly or wrongly so. |
Tmsorosk, first of all, it's Rowland, as in Jeff Rowland. Secondly, no it wasn't the big 3, everyone knows that no high end SS list is complete without Nelson Pass and his Threshold/Pass designs. Some might argue that Boulder and others deserve to be on that list too.
Also, that is just a list of high end American SS designers. You also have high end SS from other countries. I won't even bother to start listing high end SS international brands.
So it definitely WAS NOT always one of those 3 you mentioned as to who was number 1. They were/are 3 big names, let's just leave it at that. |
Tmsorrosk,
The ML amp issues seem to center around the 300 series model(bad/poor quality capacitors). Your amplifiers are a different series/model and likely used better caps. I`m sure not 'every' 300 series amp owner had problems,but enough did to make this a legitimate concern. |
I don't think we have established that there is a problem. I've owned seven ML components in the past 15 years and have had no reliability problems, other than when two fuses blew in a power amp, do to my own incompetence. I recently traded up a #431 for a #532, the #431 was sold before it arrived at the dealers and for three quarters of the new price. Most of the responses above seem to be speculation rather than facts.
One other thing to consider is that back in the day, there were three undisputed high end brands Levinson, Krell and Roland, there was much controversy about which was number one but it was always one of the three. Now there are more great brands that you could name. |
The conclusion I'm drawing is that the ML amp market is down and slower because of the perception of reliability issues, customer service issues, and the high cost of parts and service. In the end it doesn't matter whether or not I agree with any of this, you guys have convinced me these are very likely the reasons. Thanks. |
Roscoeiii,
Good points,I also think it`s more than mere hearsay.There`s enough mentioned in the audiogon archives by former ML owners who would back missioncoonery`s statements. |
No experience at all with ML gear, but I will say that having first-hand experience with an ML dealer is much more than hearsay. A dealer is an authority who can compare the line under discussion to his experiences with other products in the ML line and and with products from other companies.
Missioncoonery is very specific in his criticism and has been very open on the basis for this criticism. And (somewhat surprisingly) this issue hasn't kept him from writing off other lines of ML equipment.
Give him some credit for backing up his claim. This is a lot more support for a claim than I often see on audio forums.
And his answer seems to go a long way towards answering your original question. |
Read all the post on the net my friend..cant help it if ya got stuck holdin the 300 series bag,lol.Yes, never owned a 300 series but I would buy a 500 series. Just as I thought. Hearsay. I didn't get stuck; all of my ML equipment is now sold, but I'm left with a lot of respect for the designers of that generation. And that even includes the No39 CD player that needed a replacement circuit board, and I tested the slow and expensive service of Harman's out-sourced repair shop. (High Tech Masters) I'd still be a Levinson owner, but their latest stuff is priced too high for my sensibilities. |
Levinson 331/332/333/335/336 and 33H used Philips Capacitors these caps were made in China. They are junk.
Two years ago i purchased a Levinson 331 with humming from left channel for $1100 including shipping on Ebay. I replaced all 8 filter caps with USA made high end Cornell Dubilier and sold it on ebay for 2500 dollars.
Levinson is a very good amp. I have sold quality high end USA made caps for all of these Levinsons. All of these amps are working great. These caps are special order item from CDE,Nichicon and Tech Cap.
IVROBINSON. Your Levinson had the caps replaced I am sure you can sell it for much higher than 2100 dollars. Many will not buy these Levinson with out the cap replacemet.
Levinson repair center charges 1800 to 30000 for this job. Also they use United Chemicon caps for replacement. The Cornell Dubilier is lot better cap for filter supply. |
Read all the post on the net my friend..cant help it if ya got stuck holdin the 300 series bag,lol.Yes, never owned a 300 series but I would buy a 500 series |
Its documented fact the 300 series has/had issues out the yingyang (and has since day one).JUNK!!! Where is this documented? Just posts like yours? (I figured you never owned an ML product.) |
One morning I turned it on and there was static on the right channel. I power cycled it a few times, made sure there were no cabling issues, etc and could not get it to stop.
I called the ML support number and they said that more than likely it was a cap failing, which they confirmed and repaired. At the time they were still repairing the amplifiers in-house. Interesting. Thanks. |
How did the problem manifest itself? Did the amp fail? One morning I turned it on and there was static on the right channel. I power cycled it a few times, made sure there were no cabling issues, etc and could not get it to stop. I called the ML support number and they said that more than likely it was a cap failing, which they confirmed and repaired. At the time they were still repairing the amplifiers in-house. |
Irvrobinson ...Are you kidding,lol... but my bro-in-law was an authorized dealer.They had so many returns for warranty work.Compiled with bad customer service from factory and their customers being pissed off at them they dropped the line.Its documented fact the 300 series has/had issues out the yingyang (and has since day one).JUNK!!!If you own one dump it and run,if buying good luck. |
The Levinson 300s series is JUNK IMO...I wouldnt want it at any price.Prices on the cheap has nothing to do with the site,its the gear.Good luck with that one. Interesting perspective. Have you ever owned one? |
The Levinson 300s series is JUNK IMO...I wouldnt want it at any price.Prices on the cheap has nothing to do with the site,its the gear.Good luck with that one. |
As a previous owner of a 336 (which I absolutely adored) and experienced the capacitor problem, I can sympathize with those who are leery of the 3xx series of amplifiers. How did the problem manifest itself? Did the amp fail? |
I talked to Harman about the so-called cap problem a while back. There were apparently some weak parts, not an endemic problem, and it wasn't even in the 334-336 series. The whole re-capping thing is audiophile paranoia nonsense. Just think about it... capacitors are commodities, they're not made special just for Harman. If Levinson amps need new capacitors so often, why don't all other class A/AB amps? Not all circuits are created equal, even if many of the components used in competing designs are identical. As a previous owner of a 336 (which I absolutely adored) and experienced the capacitor problem, I can sympathize with those who are leery of the 3xx series of amplifiers. It's a nerve-wracking experience trusting your mega-buck, 100+ lb baby with any of our shipping agents. Mine luckily was repaired and returned without incident, and sounded better than ever upon it's return. Sadly, I will not be considering another 3xx. With that said, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a 4xx or 5xx ML amplifier. |
I don't think the high efficiency/low power setups have any effect on the Levinson market. I do think that more folks now are using tube amps. Two gents that I know who used to be Levinson owners are now running tube amps. Not the flea powered SET amps, but tube amps nonetheless. |
05-18-12: Kcufnogoidua
I suspect the market for used Levinson amps is slow because the general movement in the audiophile realm is towards high efficiency / low power setups. High efficiency? You mean like Class D Crown amps? Or are you referring to something else? Please don't tell us about 6W single-ended tube amps or whatever, and they're somehow converting all of the Levinson buyers. :-) |
05-17-12: Rhljazz
I would never buy due to the known cap problems and expense to repair. I talked to Harman about the so-called cap problem a while back. There were apparently some weak parts, not an endemic problem, and it wasn't even in the 334-336 series. The whole re-capping thing is audiophile paranoia nonsense. Just think about it... capacitors are commodities, they're not made special just for Harman. If Levinson amps need new capacitors so often, why don't all other class A/AB amps? |
I suspect the market for used Levinson amps is slow because the general movement in the audiophile realm is towards high efficiency / low power setups.
Err, and the sound of levinson. |
Rhijazz, I believe that was covered by Charles1dad in the first reply. |
I would never buy due to the known cap problems and expense to repair. |
