Zu Soul Superfly

>>Biggest potential dissappointment with Zu Speakers is that it does not have HF extension, and so does not create hi-fi "air" "detail" "pin-point imaging" etc.<<

Hmmm. The supertweeter goes out to 25kHz before roll-off. The original Druid certainly lacked HF detail but this problem was pretty much solved in Druid 4-08, and has never been an issue with Definition. Soul Superfly sounds extended. I have no trouble getting pin-point imaging from Soul or Definition, and Druids are much improved in this respect since 4-08. But, right, it isn't the emphasized top-end sound characterized as "hi-fi." It's more like music actually sounds in real acoustic spaces.

Now for anyone who wants that "hi-fi" sound, there's a ribbon-supertweeter Essence to take care of that.

>>With my druid setup in very large room, I think Zu needs more watts than Phil suggests. You will need to make your own call. Also, in my room, I have suckout at upper bass, which makes presentation dry. I have engaged various strategies to fix that with placement etc.<<

Lots of variables, room to room. The good thing is, if you need more power to really load an acoustic space, Zu speakers can handle it. I will say, however, that loading more power into Druids can deliver a sense of compression sooner than Soul Superfly. That is, unlike the more scalable Definition, Druids can reach a point where more power doesn't seem to be doing any more for you. I usually find this point in the 80 - 120w range with Druids. Whereas Soul just feels like it can run with more juice. It has more dynamic elasticity and throwing more watts at it will make a difference in how a large space is loaded. Both the stronger motor/lighter cone and the full Griewe loading contribute. Also, to get the same apparent dynamic life from solid state and tubes, you'll need more solid state watts generally.

>>I totally disagree with people who say speakers should be "unfussy about placement" simply because, at lower frequency, you will have room interaction and either it is working for you or working against you. Druids benefitted greatly from placement but did not need much treatment, soul are less directional so maybe they need more treatment but less placement help?<<

I'll write it again. There's no conflict between a speaker being unfussy about placement and potential benefits of precision set-up. An unfussy speaker like Soul nevertheless benefits from dialed-in placement, not to mention that the room does too. The point about unfussiness in placement is that the music lover who can't be bothered -- and that's the market Zu would really like to wake up -- can plop them down and get good, rather than crap, sound. WE here on Audiogon might not think it's right, but there's a market that just wants to put speakers where they look good or can be accommodated by the room. That crowd will like this speaker.

>>Finally, i find, contra phil, that on really massive orchestral work at high volume they overload poor single driver somewhat.<<

See prior comment about difference between Druid and Soul. Druids, somewhat, sure. Soul far less. Also, it could be your amp running out of headroom.

Phil

I would concur with Zanon that the Druid does not have HF extension for my liking. I have not heard Soul.

However, the more expensive brethren do much better in this regard (I own Definition 2s)---not a beryllium tweeter, make no mistake---but I do not find a lack of detail in the high frequencies.

I think the biggest drawback of Zus so far is that they aren't as amplifier friendly as a 100db speaker would allow you to believe. Or should I say, they don't sound good on all types of amplifiers. Amplifier matching on my Def2s has definitely been more difficult, but at the same time more pleasing.

KeithR

KeithR:

Please! I am very happy with Druid HF extension because I do not like what I feel is exaggerated, unnatural HF extension which defines "hi fi" today. If Soul has HiFi extension it is not for me, although looking at super tweeter I would not expect it is so. This is maybe #1 reason HiFi people do not like Zu's. I hope nothing has changed in this respect with Soul.

Maybe I would not like Definitions based on what you suggest about their sound?

Second main reason people do not like Zu's is you get potentially dry presentation with suckout at upper bass. You can do things to fix this, but it can happen, especially if your room is working against you in this freq. range. This is a more serious problem, but then Zu has these very flat curves for Soul and it is possible new driver behaves better in this critical region.

Third main reason people dislike Druid at least is bass is not great at 30Hz, and is freak at 60Hz. I think this 70% room and 30% loading, and I can believe that new loading in Soul is better here. This is area I am most interested in actually

I think Zu's have been set-up to their disadvantage by people saying they are friendly to flea-amp SETs. In real world it is just not so. If expectation had been set correctly, I think people would be perfectly satisfied with Zu amp matching, it's just that they think 2W SET is a good idea and then wonder why it does not sound right.

PHIL: Druids are perfectly fine off axis, or setup without care. But in order to have them sound their best, you need to take care. That is all.

For people who do not care how speakers sound, then they should by $200 polk. For Zus, I play in living room, and when I don't care, walking around etc., they sound fine. But, when I sit in listening position they sound great.

There is no speaker that can sound great if you do not care about setup. It is not possible. And if you do not care about sounding great, then stick with table radio of those free white buds you get with iPod.

Maybe music lover who cannot be bothered with setup is actively listening to music where actual sound is not so important. Again, I wonder why they bother buying $2000 speakers.

But coming back to Bjesien question -- he asked something honest and reasonable and we should do our best to answer it honestly and reasonable too.

>>Maybe music lover who cannot be bothered with setup is actively listening to music where actual sound is not so important. Again, I wonder why they bother buying $2000 speakers.<<

There's more to music enjoyment for many people than audiophile imaging and mitigation of room issues. Put a pair of Zu speakers down where they work in the room, aesthetically or for room function, and you can still appreciate the tonal honesty in the midrange and the jump factor giveing them dynamic life. We shouldn't discount the music lover's appreciation of a good speaker just because they aren't interested in set-up to audiophile standards. $2000 can be cheap to the music lover looking for realistic tone and dynamic life.

>>But coming back to Bjesien question -- he asked something honest and reasonable and we should do our best to answer it honestly and reasonable too.<<

I'm pretty sure I did.

Phil

Phil:

It is perfectly OK that we have different opinions about speakers, music, Zu etc. That is what makes hobby fun.

However, I feel that we do not do Zu, or any speaker, any favors by not being honest about its function. If Bjesien looks elsewhere, he will find many Zu critics. Some of them have good points, some don't, but many of their criticisms come from bad implementation/expectation. Ignoring all of this does not help Bjesien or Zu.

So, you will see people complaining about dynamics when, in fact, they are running them with flea amps and Zus, while sensitive, are simply not that sensitive. Maybe horns will work with 2W SET. Not Zus.

You will see people complain about dry, cardboard presentation (and not the "magical midrange" which Zu is supposed to give). This is usually because they experience same upper bass suckout that I do and have done nothing about it.

You will see people complain about lack of foundation and weak bass. This is because speakers need to be pushed towards wall and corner, or maybe be put in smaller room. Or have improved Greiwe loading. Again, wrong setup.

You will see people complaining about ragged highs or poor imaging. Or flat presentation. This has always, I have found, been due to incorrect toe-in. Easy to fix, but we are talking milimiter movements.

You will hear people complain about lack of detail, resolution, or air. This is because they have "hi-fi" taste, which Zus (thank Gods) do not deliver. With exception of Essence.

Very occasionally, you will hear people complain about congestion at high level. This I think is simply consequence of FRD topology. There is simply no solution unless you go multi-driver, and that opens up problems of phase, time, crossover, sensitivity, integration, etc. etc. Take your poison. For me, it is no brainer, Zu all the way.

Look, I am huge Zu fan. But I am also honest about them! I buy them, I recommend others buy them.

If you put Zus in room without care then you will not get their tonal honesty in midrange, or dynamic life. They will sound good, but nothing special. That is what my Zus sound like off axis, good, but not special. So they will ask "why all the hype?"

If you do not care about placement, you lose tonal honesty because you get suckout in upper bass and HF does not resolve correctly. So, you get watered down fundamental right where you want it most plus screwed up harmonics -- where is your tone gone? Add a flea amp, and your dynamic life dies as well. So, people listen to this and say "Zus are bad speakers". Total shame and so unnecessary. And please note, nowhere do I mention "audiophile imaging" as I don't care about imaging at all.

An audiophile who does not care about placement should just buy headphones. Or stick with listening to Kenny G. It makes no sense for someone who plans to just "plop them down" to pay extra $800 and buy Soul Superfly over Soul standard. Maybe Zu should make Soul SuperDuperfly, and charge and extra $800 for them for people who really don't care about actual sound.

Let me give you typical example. You have people with speakers, one in corner, one against just wall. Corner loaded speaker is +2db at listening position. But they do not test this, and do not adjust balance to make up for corner loading.

That's fine, maybe they don't know, maybe they don't care, maybe it does not get in the way of their enjoyment of Kenny G.

But, would anyone buy speaker where left channel is 5db louder than right? Would anyone pay extra for speaker where one channel is louder than the other? Would you say "tone is so real, I do not care that left speaker is louder than right speaker!" Maybe you would, I cannot say. But ridiculousness of situation is obvious to me. Audiogon is full of people who go one about "detail, slam, air etc. etc." but seem deaf to fact that left ear is listening to whisper while right ear is listening to speech. It must be magic of Kenny G's dulcet tones.