Zu Soul Superfly

KeithR:

Please! I am very happy with Druid HF extension because I do not like what I feel is exaggerated, unnatural HF extension which defines "hi fi" today. If Soul has HiFi extension it is not for me, although looking at super tweeter I would not expect it is so. This is maybe #1 reason HiFi people do not like Zu's. I hope nothing has changed in this respect with Soul.

Maybe I would not like Definitions based on what you suggest about their sound?

Second main reason people do not like Zu's is you get potentially dry presentation with suckout at upper bass. You can do things to fix this, but it can happen, especially if your room is working against you in this freq. range. This is a more serious problem, but then Zu has these very flat curves for Soul and it is possible new driver behaves better in this critical region.

Third main reason people dislike Druid at least is bass is not great at 30Hz, and is freak at 60Hz. I think this 70% room and 30% loading, and I can believe that new loading in Soul is better here. This is area I am most interested in actually

I think Zu's have been set-up to their disadvantage by people saying they are friendly to flea-amp SETs. In real world it is just not so. If expectation had been set correctly, I think people would be perfectly satisfied with Zu amp matching, it's just that they think 2W SET is a good idea and then wonder why it does not sound right.

PHIL: Druids are perfectly fine off axis, or setup without care. But in order to have them sound their best, you need to take care. That is all.

For people who do not care how speakers sound, then they should by $200 polk. For Zus, I play in living room, and when I don't care, walking around etc., they sound fine. But, when I sit in listening position they sound great.

There is no speaker that can sound great if you do not care about setup. It is not possible. And if you do not care about sounding great, then stick with table radio of those free white buds you get with iPod.

Maybe music lover who cannot be bothered with setup is actively listening to music where actual sound is not so important. Again, I wonder why they bother buying $2000 speakers.

But coming back to Bjesien question -- he asked something honest and reasonable and we should do our best to answer it honestly and reasonable too.

>>Maybe music lover who cannot be bothered with setup is actively listening to music where actual sound is not so important. Again, I wonder why they bother buying $2000 speakers.<<

There's more to music enjoyment for many people than audiophile imaging and mitigation of room issues. Put a pair of Zu speakers down where they work in the room, aesthetically or for room function, and you can still appreciate the tonal honesty in the midrange and the jump factor giveing them dynamic life. We shouldn't discount the music lover's appreciation of a good speaker just because they aren't interested in set-up to audiophile standards. $2000 can be cheap to the music lover looking for realistic tone and dynamic life.

>>But coming back to Bjesien question -- he asked something honest and reasonable and we should do our best to answer it honestly and reasonable too.<<

I'm pretty sure I did.

Phil

Phil:

It is perfectly OK that we have different opinions about speakers, music, Zu etc. That is what makes hobby fun.

However, I feel that we do not do Zu, or any speaker, any favors by not being honest about its function. If Bjesien looks elsewhere, he will find many Zu critics. Some of them have good points, some don't, but many of their criticisms come from bad implementation/expectation. Ignoring all of this does not help Bjesien or Zu.

So, you will see people complaining about dynamics when, in fact, they are running them with flea amps and Zus, while sensitive, are simply not that sensitive. Maybe horns will work with 2W SET. Not Zus.

You will see people complain about dry, cardboard presentation (and not the "magical midrange" which Zu is supposed to give). This is usually because they experience same upper bass suckout that I do and have done nothing about it.

You will see people complain about lack of foundation and weak bass. This is because speakers need to be pushed towards wall and corner, or maybe be put in smaller room. Or have improved Greiwe loading. Again, wrong setup.

You will see people complaining about ragged highs or poor imaging. Or flat presentation. This has always, I have found, been due to incorrect toe-in. Easy to fix, but we are talking milimiter movements.

You will hear people complain about lack of detail, resolution, or air. This is because they have "hi-fi" taste, which Zus (thank Gods) do not deliver. With exception of Essence.

Very occasionally, you will hear people complain about congestion at high level. This I think is simply consequence of FRD topology. There is simply no solution unless you go multi-driver, and that opens up problems of phase, time, crossover, sensitivity, integration, etc. etc. Take your poison. For me, it is no brainer, Zu all the way.

Look, I am huge Zu fan. But I am also honest about them! I buy them, I recommend others buy them.

If you put Zus in room without care then you will not get their tonal honesty in midrange, or dynamic life. They will sound good, but nothing special. That is what my Zus sound like off axis, good, but not special. So they will ask "why all the hype?"

If you do not care about placement, you lose tonal honesty because you get suckout in upper bass and HF does not resolve correctly. So, you get watered down fundamental right where you want it most plus screwed up harmonics -- where is your tone gone? Add a flea amp, and your dynamic life dies as well. So, people listen to this and say "Zus are bad speakers". Total shame and so unnecessary. And please note, nowhere do I mention "audiophile imaging" as I don't care about imaging at all.

An audiophile who does not care about placement should just buy headphones. Or stick with listening to Kenny G. It makes no sense for someone who plans to just "plop them down" to pay extra $800 and buy Soul Superfly over Soul standard. Maybe Zu should make Soul SuperDuperfly, and charge and extra $800 for them for people who really don't care about actual sound.

Let me give you typical example. You have people with speakers, one in corner, one against just wall. Corner loaded speaker is +2db at listening position. But they do not test this, and do not adjust balance to make up for corner loading.

That's fine, maybe they don't know, maybe they don't care, maybe it does not get in the way of their enjoyment of Kenny G.

But, would anyone buy speaker where left channel is 5db louder than right? Would anyone pay extra for speaker where one channel is louder than the other? Would you say "tone is so real, I do not care that left speaker is louder than right speaker!" Maybe you would, I cannot say. But ridiculousness of situation is obvious to me. Audiogon is full of people who go one about "detail, slam, air etc. etc." but seem deaf to fact that left ear is listening to whisper while right ear is listening to speech. It must be magic of Kenny G's dulcet tones.

Just for the record, I'd like to point out that the amplifier only "sees" the impedance curve (magnitude, frequency, and phase) that a speaker system presents; it doesn't "see" the individual drivers or crossover parts separately. Therefore, it is quite possible for a speaker with a complex crossover to present a smoother load to the amplifier than one with a minimalist crossover, or no crossover.

I applaud what Zu has done with their innovative format. They set the bar high and make the rest of us work very hard.

This statement I fully agree with: "Ragged response that shows short bandwidth abberations against a backdrop of general octave-to-octave balance can sound just fine and convincing, as opposed to a speaker with smoother curve but clearly visible octave-to-octave dysfunction, which can sound completely wrong." Let me add that dips are far less audible than peaks. In the Druid for instance, Zu did a fine job of juggling the inevitable tradeoffs in a way that minimized their audibility. It looks like the Soul has fewer tradeoffs, and if anything its designers are now even more expert jugglers.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

>>So, you will see people complaining about dynamics when, in fact, they are running them with flea amps and Zus, while sensitive, are simply not that sensitive. Maybe horns will work with 2W SET. Not Zus.<<

I've had 2w 45 and 2a3 amps in my living room, wired up to Definitions, Presence and Druids. It's not my idea of perfection but the flea-watters in the room were fully satisfied. Zu speakers really are 101db/w/m, but they're not 114db/w/m like some horns. Big difference, with other compromises. The true 2w aficionado is realistic about dynamics and listens for tone within the power limits of their amp. The people who think 2w isn't enough likely wouldn't like 2 watts on anything in that efficiency range. On the other hand, you can blow minds with the sound available through Definitions powered by a ZVex ImpAmp, which is kind of sheer dumb fun when you do it.

>>It is perfectly OK that we have different opinions about speakers, music, Zu etc<<

I don't think we have are apart on any significant issue regarding Zu speakers. Your observations of why some people perceive them as they do are correct. I only add that there is a music lover audience that will never cotton to audiophile obsessions, and they too can find Zu plug'n'play. Which I've witnessed.

>>An audiophile who does not care about placement should just buy headphones.<<

But there is a non-audiophile market that just loves music and will pay for good gear. Zu designs to be inclusive, not exclusive. It's one of their core objectives, to expand hifi appeal beyond audiophiles.

>>It makes no sense for someone who plans to just "plop them down" to pay extra $800 and buy Soul Superfly over Soul standard.<<

Over 30 years ago when I worked in high-end audio my best customer wore hearing aids in both ears. He spent gobs and of course only heard midrange, and felt bass. But his sense of tone correctness was uncanny, while his spatial perception was useless. People buy for lots of reasons. There will be people who buy Superfly over std. Soul just to get the metal hardware where plain Soul will have plastics, for example. What "makes sense" to audiophiles is irrelevant outside our little circle. And it *is* a little circle.

>>But, would anyone buy speaker where left channel is 5db louder than right? Would anyone pay extra for speaker where one channel is louder than the other? Would you say "tone is so real, I do not care that left speaker is louder than right speaker!"<<

Perhaps you'd be surprised about the number of people for whom a 5db difference of any kind just doesn't register.

>>Audiogon is full of people who go one about "detail, slam, air etc. etc." but seem deaf to fact that left ear is listening to whisper while right ear is listening to speech.<<

We agree. What passes for accuracy in hi-fi today is usually excessively detailed, over-resolved. The normal attenuation of top end in real acoustic spaces is replaced by close-mic'ing and rising top end, spraying out sounds you never hear from live music in real acoustic spaces. We agree.

I place my speakers by millimeters within a functional rubric in a room. Some people think that's excessive and they've spent much more than me. Even on Audiogon it's a diverse little circle. What can you do? There's no component for everyone.

Many of the risks you cite regarding reactions to the sound of unoptimized Zu installations are mitigated by Soul. I'll say it's one of the easiest speakers to place for good sound that I've ever worked with. Much less fussy than Druid. Dialing in Soul is more about choices for what kind of staging you want, presence or reticence, and room factors to mitigate, than about going from "ack!" to "ahhhh."

Phil