Synergistic calls out Audioholics

@prof

Measurements have their place. They are where the journey begins, not where it ends. 
I am not a manufacturer of audio gear, I am a consumer. I have an audience of one. A unique and highly specific audience. Me. 
If I hear something I like, I don’t care what causes it. As I am the beginning, middle, and end of my listening experience, the reason why it works or doesn’t is irrelevant. 
If I were a manufacturer, then those numbers may be of interest to some. 
Curious, two capacitors, different manufacturers with identical measurements will not have the same sonic signature. Two tubes, different manufacturers with the same measurements will not have the same sonic signature. 
It is not difficult to find two uniquely different amplifiers that have the same measurements, and yet sound vastly different. 
Measurements. What measurements? What standards? 
History is full of examples of scientists who theorized a particular reason for a phenomenon. Then they sought to prove their thesis. In the margins of their notes, you can see how they modify their calculus in order to have the equation validate their thesis. 
Measurements and the scientific method. 
I have no problem with measurements. But like I said, they are where the journey begins. And what do the measurements mean sonically in my system?
This hobby is one small part of what I do with my time. More so during the last year as CV19 has shut down my day job. 
Have you ever designed and built a speaker? Listened to how the volume of the enclosure, the size and length of the port, the crossover design, crossover point, damping and stuffing effect the sound? There are all kinds of equations to aide in this process. In the past year, I have built some 2 dozen unique speakers. A purely creative and exploratory process. Doing, and listening. No preconceived notions of what should generate a better result. Just listening. 
A handful of stuffing behind the driver in a 300ltr enclosure, will effect the sound quality. 
There is no measurements that will predict those nuanced effects and if I will like or dislike the sonic effect.

I need to hear it to know if I like it.

Do any of Stereophiles measurements tell you how the gear will sound?

Prof is just using sophistry to further his trolling, having what he thinks is fun. He’s never been successful at it but one has to give him credit for perseverance.

Ever notice how most of his discussions are off in the weeds and straw man arguments, which he accuses others of? Then he gets way too semantical and turns phrases and wordings on their heads.

Must have been a hot shot back on the debating team.

All the best,
Nonoise

Some people think that intelligence can be measured... There is some correlation yes between some measuring test and some aspect of intelligence but we CANNOT measure intelligence...It is the same thing in psychoacoustic...But simple mind cannot even fathom the essential questions in psychoacoustic they think that all is solved and exposed in a book or 2 about some aspect of engineering....

Then why not cables effects, and all audible experience...All reduced to measures...

A.I. tomorrow will give them some kind of "proof"...

What i just said is anyway false, tomorrow is already today for the technocratic cult....The idolatry of technology is the opposite of science...

I am retired and i speak too much here ......But i like to partake my audio experience....

04-15-2021 3:09pmOh yeah children choking to death because their parents are dumber than rocks is freaking hilarious. I heard a comedian on the radio....
Guess the state is required to keep kids safe from their idiotic parents.  Especially from those dangerous chocolate eggs. Assault rifles are AOK however. 
Parents who don’t/can’t monitor properly. Easier to have children than it is to get a drivers license. And we all see how great drivers are...

perkri,

If I hear something I like, I don’t care what causes it.

Ok, perfectly fine.



But why begrudge that it may be of interest to someone else who cares? That’s what seems to happen whenever someone starts asking about certain types of evidence around here. We don’t get simply "Well, I personally don’t care about objective verification, but that's fine if you do" but rather we get scorn dumped on us for caring, for even bringing it up, for caring about such evidence and why, and we get insulted and painted as muckrakers. Can we perhaps stop this and understand audiophiles have different interests, criteria and approaches and that’s ok?

As I am the beginning, middle, and end of my listening experience, the reason why it works or doesn’t is irrelevant.

Ok, so you have put your scientific curiosity aside. Again, a fine personal choice, but we shouldn’t therefore pretend that those careful empirical methods, and the knowledge built by those methods, have no say in the realm of audio, as if audio is in it’s own epistemic bubble from the rest of empirical reality and pure subjectivity gets us the right answers.

It is not difficult to find two uniquely different amplifiers that have the same measurements, and yet sound vastly different.

Which is begging the question.

Again...what is the demonstration for this claim? That people believed they heard a difference between such amplifiers? That goes right back to the question of bias and variables. That you don’t care to be careful in that regard doesn’t mean others aren’t justified in noting the problems in such accounts, when trying to understand the facts.

There is no measurements that will predict those nuanced effects and if I will like or dislike the sonic effect.

Perhaps that’s because you aren’t terribly concerned with measurements, as your post indicates, and so haven’t been rigorous about correlating the measurements to what you are hearing. Maybe if you got a little more rigorous, you’d find out that X amount of stuffing changed Y measurement correlating to what you hear. So why would I take the word of someone who says "measurements don’t predict this" from someone who doesn’t seem all that interested in measurements or "why it happens?"

Do any of Stereophiles measurements tell you how the gear will sound?

The measurements often tell me at least something about the sound of a product, especially speakers, and often enough correlate to what I myself heard in that product. Does it tell me *precisely* in all ways how the speaker sounds? No. But it often does correlate with some relevant characteristics. Same with the Soundstage measurements. (For instance the measurements of the PMC speakers not long ago in Stereophile correlated very well with Kal Rubinson’s impressions of the speaker’s particular lack of warmth, and my own when I listened to that speaker).


It would be absolutely bizarre if measurements could not be correlated to predicting to some degree how something sounds. It would make my job as a sound designer literally impossible. All day long I’m using EQ and effects which have been designed on the knowledge of what to measurably, technically change in a sound file to achieve X type of sound! That goes for "spaciousness" "warmth" " clarity" "dullness" "punch" "soundstaging" "imaging" you name it! We are manipulating it all day long BECAUSE people have correlated these things to measurements, and thus create a great variety of modules and plug-ins that we work with to predictably manipulated sound character.