Weiss 501 DAC

@melm  Hi yes I agree -- there are always trade-offs. I think the modular nature of some DACs is a very attractive feature, but no it’s not a universally appealing solution. Companies like Bricasti and Ayre have shown over the years their commitment to original owners via upgrades, and I appreciate that. One of my early digital purchases was a Naim UnitiQute, not long before the Naim Atom came out. The Atom was a major advance (I "had" to have it), but it was an expensive (to me) proposition to get the Atom, having just purchased the Qute -- whose value of course tanked when the Atom came out. In retrospect, I wish I had chosen a modular product. Or at least a dealer with a good trade-in policy. That experience colored how I feel about boxes, particularly digital boxes, that are not truly upgradeable. So that was my introduction to hifi, and it’s stayed with me.

I did choose the most expensive Holo to highlight the idea, but I think it holds at other price points as well. Take the Musetec at $3100 (the factory price keeps going up), add a decent streamer like the Lumin at $2000+, and you’re not far off the Bricasti M3 + network card at $6500, and you’re above the Sonnet Morpheus/Hermes at $4500 or whatever. I won’t get into the substance of how they sound different, just pointing out that from a price perspective, there is quite a bit of overlap between excellent Chinese DACs and excellent N.A./Euro DACs.

@reven6e makes great points on the Weiss. I haven’t heard the older Weiss DAC, but that’s consistent with what others have told me. I found the current Weiss "musical" (i.e. a pleasure -- when listening, I wanted to keep listening) but yes it’s a cool, analytical kind of pleasure (imagine the pleasure of understanding a cool new scientific experiment, vs. the pleasure of losing yourself in a movie), so system-matching becomes extra important.

P.S. This may be too obvious to mention on a website whose main purpose is the buying and selling of used audio gear, but if we're talking about relative value, the secondhand markets for the top Chinese DACs and N.A./Euro DACs are VERY different...

For Denafrips/Holo, on the used market, there's minimal haircut. A buyer is paying close to full sticker price. The main advantage buying used there is logistical -- you don't need to wait a month to receive your DAC, and you don't need to spend another month breaking it in. 

For N.A./Euro DACs, the used market provides substantial savings. There was a mint Weiss DAC that sold used for less than $6k. Yes, you do need to be patient for listings to come up, but that makes the value considerations here even more interesting. And of course with products distributed through a dealer network, there will also be demo product available at significant savings if you know where to look.

@reven6e

@metaldetektor
A sensible discussion of buying from China, or other overseas source is a positive contribution. Experiences may differ. Choices will differ. First, I have found sellers in Japan and China to have a high ethical standard, though it’s been a while since I ordered from Japan. In all my experience of buying from abroad there has never been a customs bill. The Chinese are packaging experts; that has nver been a problem. IMO shipping time is no longer an issue. We’re not talking about buying a small part on ebay. Shipment of a DAC to the Eastern US coast has taken 6 or 7 days (about the same as from California) if the item is in stock. Other current threads here will verify that. I have found support from my Chinese maker/designer to be quick and brief, but to the point. As you suggest, though I’ve been dealing with him for about 5 years I’m not certain if it’s English or Google Translate. But does it really matter? About sending it back, you have a good point. Perhaps one should be a bit of a hobbyist for what will generally happen (unless a DOA which I have never heard of) is that you will be prompted to open the DAC and pull out a board that may be in need of testing and repair. It will be easy to do and to send. Being only a board it may be cheaper and faster to send than a whole domestic DAC across the country. If that sounds like a burden, then buy from a domestic dealer. As for updates, I have the experience of sending a board back, out of warranty, asking and offering to pay for an update to then current manufacturing standards. It was done for me at no charge, just shipping. Never a customs issue at all.

A negative sometimes is selling a used unit. With some exceptions, you won’t realize anything like the percentage recovery as on most Western DACs. But then, an expert/designer has written that a $3300 Chinese DAC has outperformed a $13,000 Mola Mola. So what’s the better deal? Of course, when you buy from a domestic "dealer" you pay a (100%?) mark-up. But it’s peace of mind.

I must add one more thing. The Chinese very often tell you and show you exactly what’s inside the DAC before you buy. With many, if not most, western DACs what’s inside is a mystery. Musetec is a great example--if you’ve never done it, have a look at their description. They do it because the DAC is packed with many of the very best, and expensive, components to be found world-wide. Or look at Gustard. For anyone who can make out what the component parts can mean to long-time enjoyment this is important information. [Who was it that said, "An intelligent consumer is our best customer."?] On the other hand what the inside looks like on some Western DACs may be an embarrassment. PS Audio, for example used to sell a $4000 DAC with a beautiful case that was 80% empty inside. I wish I could show you a picture here. It was hard to find. Interestingly they’ll tell you exactly what’s inside an amp or preamp, but not a DAC.

Typical Audiogon thread. What's any of this have to do with the OP's question?

Thank you to Verdant Audio for actually answering the question BASED ON ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. Highly unusual for Audiogon.

Cost/benefit valuations certainly subjective. I don't need to repeat all the various objections to Chinese products, but it should be mentioned that nearly every single electronic product has Chinese origins in some measure. I'm not going to advocate any perspective is superior to another in this matter. I will say one could likely find a thousand possible reasons to hold biases against products from any number of countries,and from particular dealers, distributors, manufacturers, I certainly observe these biases in play on various forums.

Utility has always been important to me in any and all purchases of all kinds of products. Different business models are perceived as more or less utilitarian by consumers. Some find utility in having local dealer carrying product, in which case distributor/dealer business model perceived superior. Others may prefer all or nearly all utility to be found in the product itself, are willing to face possible warranty, shipping, etc. issues.

The question is can equipment at various price points compete in same league? I don't see enough direct comparative reviews to answer this with assurance. Rarely do I see professional reviews doing this, and consumer reviews bring much bias, and often excessive variables. The professional reviewer looses credibility with relatively lower cost equipment as their reference, and the consumer usually  has bias for equipment they've purchased, no matter the price. Perceptions the high priced spread has to sound great based solely on price, the relatively lower priced a giant killer.