Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music

I was always quite satisfied with the sound from my Thiel 2.7s (spec’d down to 35Hz though probably a bit lower in room). After reading the billionth "you need subwoofers to Have Complete Audio Nirvana" post by subwoofer proselytizers I finally gave in to give ’em another try. (Except for the studios which mix my work, I’ve never heard a satisfying audiophile system with a subwoofer, even when the owner of said system was thrilled and thought the blend "seamless.")

I used some JL Audio subwoofers, their wonderful CR-1 crossover, and some DSP via a Dspeaker anti-mode. The CR-1 in particular was a marvel in terms of increasing the ease of dialing in a subwoofer (and doing really simple "with subs/without subs" at the press of a button comparison).

I got a suprisingly close to seamless blend fairly quickly, though spent weeks dialing things in, playing around, different crossover points, positions, one sub, two subs etc.

In the end I simply liked the sound of my speakers without the subwoofers. First of all, I found the sub rarely added musically relevant sound. And yes, yes I know about how subs also are supposed to "enrich the sound at all frequencies, and also bring more dimensionality and better soundstaging" as they are enhancing depth cues in the bass. I just didn’t find that aspect much better either.

I found my speakers just sounded more coherent, more soild and punchy and dense, and with the exact tone I’ve always loved about them. Adding the sub ALWAYS altered the tone slightly, no matter how subtely I dialed them in, and some of the "magic" went away.

I have no doubt some would have heard the combo and preferred the subs. But not to my ears.

I also did a test with my 23 year old son who listens to my system once in a while. I sat him down and had the crossover box on the sofa near him. I simply told him to listen to some music, and push the button on and off. He had no idea what the button did, or what I was testing. The button simply brought the subs in and out of the system - going between the subs crossed over, to running the Thiels full range.

Turned out he thought it sounded better without the subs too.

It’s guaranteed that subwoofer fans will immediately presume "Well, that’s just because you didn’t dial them in perfectly." That certainly could be the case.

It may also be the case that if I heard your system I’d detect the seams in your sub’s integration, even if you think you had them dialed in perfectly. Maybe not. But it’s happened a number of times when I’ve heard subwoofer sets ups the owner claimed to have "done it right."

In any case, I spent weeks dialing them in, and I have good ears (work in pro sound), and frankly that’s all the work I really want to put in to subwoofers. I’m not interested in making subwoofers a second hobby. So ultimately I sold it all.

And aesthetically it was a relief. I hate the added complexity of adding several subwoofers, the extra cables, especially more AC cables, finding places to put those ugly boxes (I hate the look of subwoofers - never seen a single set up enhanced by them).

So, I’ve decided at this point subs aren’t for me. Maybe I’ll try something else some day long in the future.

(Even though subs didn’t tickle my fancy, the JL Audio stuff is fantastic btw, especially that CR-1 crossover! Transparent and a cinch to use!)

Dear @prof : Well, you are owner of Thiel speakers and this per sé says a lot. Till today every time I listened to Thiel speakers normally I like it and performs with high quality level under its model design limitations.

JT designs are all excellent not only in the choosed drivers but its box design/bracing. When we touch the speakers even at 90+dbs SPL we can’t be aware of almost any vibration/resonance.

JT speakers, even his top models, does not permit bi-amp by design. His designs were designed to be " untouchable " by audiophiles/DYs.

Your speakers does not needs subs and that’s why you do not need it, the CS 7.2 reproduce bass frequencies as low as around 23hz to 25hz and with low distortion levels but not all audiophiles own your Thiel speakers and that’s why we almost all needs subwoofers . The OP needs it too.

So your critic about the ones that we use subs are really unfair. Problem with all two way speaker designs and almost all 3 and up ways speaker designs is that normally the woofer crossover frequency is to high at around 350hz-400hz and in 2-way designs at least at 2khz and those facts makes that IMD been really high, so when we liberates the woofers from bass frequencies below 80hz-100hz then we have a true and real improvement that you or any one else can't make a negative critic because those subs are a specific and real necessity to enhance our quality level performance in our room/system of what we like : enjoyment of MUSIC.

That’s all and yes not for you. Btw, as a side advantages when integrated subs the main amplifier(s) are under lower distresss and room/system is benefited with higher headroom where it matters because the main amps are working a lot better in the mid/hi ranges and now we have dedicated powered subs designed expressely for the low bass range: we have all we need or can dream. Don't you think?

R.

Actually Thiel made a number of subwoofers to go with his speakers.  Apparently really excellent and made specially to blend with Thiel speakers, especially.

So it's not like Thiel speakers were "subwoofer proof" or something.  I know that a number of people found great satisfaction pairing their Thiels with subwoofers.  I happen to not be one of them, that's all.

And I was not critiquing people who use subs.   Why would I?  Tons of people have found subwoofers enhanced the enjoyment of their system.   I was only talking about my personal experience and reaction to subwoofer systems I've heard, and in regard to my own attempts to add subwoofers.

I've seen very elaborate subwoofer threads (e.g. on AVSforum and elsewhere) and it amazes me how much effort some have gone in to integrating subwoofers - even building them DIY, measuring room response, lots of experimenting with room correction, treatments etc.   If that's their bliss, more power to them.  I just feel I have only so much time I want to devote to such a project, especially given how much I like the sound of my speakers as they are.

Dear @prof  : I don't know ofr read somewhere that a CS7.2 owner used subs integrated with liberating the Thiel woofers for that low bass range posted.

Yes, I know and heard once thge Thiel sub. My post was specific for your Thiel model but I have to say that my last listening to that model was several years ago and " things " change over time as our " mind " too.

R.

P.S. - I just added distortion measurements to the original blog. Honestly, the numbers seem low, about 2% at 20 Hz???

I’m in the middle of a HT install (with a sub!) so I may not be able to get back to it, but I wanted you all to know I did in fact do more on this but that it probably deserves more exploration before I stand by the distortion numbers.

Best,

Erik