I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

@atmasphere  If you read that post again, that was not a posit, rather a question? I can't make that posit without having heard the components I speak of. You posit they'll all sound the same,  apparently, you trust the measurements over human sensory perception. This in a nutshell, speaks to difference between O and S, I need to listen, O's don't.

As Charles previously stated, and I stated in previous post, we don't deny science and find it useful. We also don't deny the validity of our individual sensory perceptions for our OWN choices.

It has never been my intention to present my observations, listening experiences as some objectively verifiable truth. They are presented as an obvious subjectivist, my system and preferences there for all to see. And based on my observations the vast majority of posts here follow this pattern. I don't see much if any misrepresentation in posts that listener's experiences are shaped by their preferences.

I presume vast majority of visitors and contributors to this forum understand it's greatly dominated by subjectivists. ASR and some of diy forums, objectivists. I haven't dismissed ASR in any of my posts, and have in fact used them to some extent in purchasing decisions. And they do present their listening impressions on that forum, at least some there attach some validity to their sensory perceptions. I am in fact a hybrid of O and S for initial purchase decsions,  however, I do attach validity to my sense perceptions for long term ownership.

I go back to the 60s, thank you very much. I'm not sure where you are shopping but there is no incentive to have a disappointed customer unless you are selling speakers out the back of a white van. A good dealer will help you on your journey through the maze of possible choices. You probably need to shop at better stores if you think you are being lied to and being sold "snake oil".

We need ways to determine if a dealer, manufacturer or salesman’s claims are factual, semi factual or total B.S. that is wittingly or unwittingly fabricated.

We can try doing that in our houses post facto after purchase, or using some measurements a priori.

I like to do as much of that in an a priori fashion as possible.

And realistically the dealer, and more to the point… salesmen, have a low track record for trustworthiness. Whether it is used cars or stereo gear, if they were EE types, or automotive engineers or mechanics, then they would be making things, or fixing things… not selling things.

I like bartenders and baristas as much as the next fellow... maybe more so…
But striving actors and philosophy majors are always interesting to talk to.
However I would not be taking their advice on technical matters, nor on medicine, nor on world politics.

We seem to want to trust stereo salespeople perhaps more than they should be trusted.

I set the bar at whether they can speak to a graph, or explain in some technical way why piece is worthwhile, and when they resort to magic and synergy, I pretty much put the shields up and engage engines to leave.

And realistically the dealer, and more to the point… salesmen, have a low track record for trustworthiness.

My first dealer, Walt at Woodland stereo always made sure I went home with the right stuff. He helped Arnie Nudel with his first loudspeaker the Servo Statik. Walt had the best sound of any SoCal audio shop. Many years later I was dealing with Kevin Deal, he has a good ear and I just have to tell him what direction I want to go in and he gets me there. If you haven't found someone that is on your wavelength, keep looking around and going to shops until you find that person. 

@sns

@atmasphere If you read that post again, that was not a posit, rather a question? I can’t make that posit without having heard the components I speak of. You posit they’ll all sound the same, apparently, you trust the measurements over human sensory perception. This in a nutshell, speaks to difference between O and S, I need to listen, O’s don’t.

The point I believe that you might have missed is the fact that he is an amplifier designer and manufacturer.

I would be pretty disappointed if Ralph, Bruno, and/or a handfuls of other “engineers” were using tweaks and burning of incense to design gear.

I would reword your quote to be:

This in a nutshell, speaks to difference between us.

• I listen carefully to O that have a track record of quality gear as understanding the objective science.
• And I listen to S as story tellers, sometimes conveying the qualitative.

A good objectivist understands what tickles the toes of the pure subjectivist.
The reverse is almost never true.

Maybe a subjectivist could be in a middle ground of wearing the twin hats of objectivist, and liking the subjective experience. But I doubt it.

It seems more common that one either is not capable of understanding the technical nuance, or they just do not want to… and they like to hold up their hands and claim it is all unknowable.

At some point though it is true that no matter how glowing the prose is, it is hard to make believe that something is good, when it in fact, sounds bad.

Hence I would not say “Trust our ears”, but I would say, “Verify with our ears.”

The difference is O knows what's best for me, S suggests.