why expensive streamers


@soix and others

I am unclear about the effect on sound of streamers (prior to getting to the dac). Audio (even hi-res) has so little information content relative to the mega and giga bit communication and processing speeds (bandwidth, BW) and cheap buffering supported by modern electronics that it seems that any relatively cheap piece of electronics would never lose an audio bit. 

Here is why. Because of the huge amount of BW relative to the BW needs of audio, you can send the same audio chunk 100 times and use a bit checking algorithm (they call this "check sum") to make sure just one of these sets is correct. With this approach you would be assured that the correct bits would be transfered. This high accuracy rate would mean perfect audio bit transfer. 

What am I missing? Why are people spending 1000's on streamers?

thx

 

128x128delmatae

@mdalton 

I didn’t attribute the difference to noise. I suggested that noise may be part of the equation. A subtle, but important difference. I did, however, suggest that the difference may be due to the rise and slope of the analogue waveform representing the 1s and 0s. A “bit perfect” file may be interpreted differently because of these minute variations.

Accordingly, I am skeptical of claims of certain DACs to be “immune” to jitter when the benefits of improved clocking are plainly audible. It turns out the ear is astonishingly sensitive to jitter distortions. Again, the benefits of femto second clocks are well known - and the results plainly audible to even not well trained ears. 

I would modify your metaphor thusly. Put poor quality fuel into any engine - regardless of the quality thereof, and see if it performs to spec.

You believe what you believe - and have provided some anecdotal evidence to support your claim - which I fully accept. I and some others believe differently and have provided anecdotal evidence to support our belief as well.

I would offer this. We’re still early in streaming relative to high performance audio history. We don’t currently know everything. It was originally postulated that CDs would provide “perfect sound forever” and that, because it was digital, all CD players (and transports particularly) would sound the same. That has been shown to be false, though perhaps still disputed by some who fail to do the work. 

Perhaps as an experiment you could try different inputs into your DAC. Try S/PDIF vs USB. Try different cable companies. They are all providing the same bit perfect stream, yet each will sound different. Those differences are measurable, though not necessarily quantifiable. They may not be massive differences, but they exist. This is because digital data is transmitted in an analogue wave form and cable geometry influences that transmission and introduces jitter.

If you struggle with this test - then let’s exaggerate it. Try an analogue RCA cable in lieu of a 75 ohm digital cable for your S/PDIF connection. It will likely sound thin and cast a steely glare over everything, all while transmitting a bit perfect file. Jitter.

Further, noise may not be primary, but it is an issue. All cables are antennas of some sort - both transmitter and receiver. Some are better insulated against this, but all are antennas of some sort. Computers tend to be noisy w/ EMF and RFI emissions from cheap power supplies and lots of other operating components not specific to audio. That’s why dedicated streamers with more attention placed on power supplies, etc. tend to outperform even high end computers. For instance, I had a souped up Mac mini dedicated as a streamer/server. 16 GB ram, solid state drives and everything not related to my music library turned off. That was its only function. It was handily outperformed by a modest streamer. Call me a fool or deluded if you wish. I wouldn’t go back to it.

In summary, the science, my experience, and actual measurements tell me the same thing.  A competent streamer should not be a source of audible noise; I am convinced that any differences we hear are either due to differences in signal processing (e.g., reclocking, up sampling, etc.), our DACs, or, yes, confirmation bias. 

 

@mdalton

you have tube gear, what does your science say about the sound profiles in different tubes? Care to show us some microphonic measurements?

@mgrif104 

I’m astonished that you can point to jitter at the same time that it’s been demonstrated that jitter is virtually nonexistent in any decent streamer.  How can it be that these manufacturers have discovered a secret in removing jitter, noise (and fairy dust?) without showing us how to measure this new, exciting branch of science?  Why don’t you ask them to prove it?  Why don’t they volunteer this information that would prove their brilliance? It’s all mystifying to me. 

Jitter WAS an issue in early digital audio that has been solved. It was primarily an issue with digital recordings where things have to happen in real time. In reproduction, buffering allows the time for error correction. Any serious manufacturer can use off the shelf components to make jitter a non issue. 

That being said, every piece of electronics will sound different for other reasons. Circuit design, components, quality control, all can make streamers sound different from each other. Whether different is better is an opinion. We all have one.