Do 1st Order XO's produce a smaller


In my mind I'm trying to come to terms with two possible conflicting desires:

1. The desire for transparency, accuracy, dynamics and a wide halographic soundstage presentation.

2. The desire for a much larger sweet spot to compensate for multiple listening positions. I want the advantage of on-axis detail, but I don't want this space to be limited by inches or a few feet.

The concept of time coherency makes perfect sense to me and seems to be a superior design philosophy in conjunction with the ability to control phase shift (smear). However, based on what I've read it appears most of the 1st order time coherent designs being created today have relatively narrow sweet spots. If you're on-axis these designs can be musical nirvana, but what if you're off-axis or move to another location in the room? Typically you tend to lose the benefit of this design.

Conversely one has the option of going the Ohm "Walsh" or Meridian route and get an incredibly wide/deep soundstage because of the 360 degree sound dispersion. I've heard you can move around within a room and the sound quality does not deteriorate significantly. In other words this type of speaker design fills up an entire room and sounds great where ever you are sitting or standing. However, are we giving up a critical level of accuracy with this design approach? With sound esstentially arriving at our ears at different times are we really getting an accurate representation of each instrument? Is the music being smeared in some way?

I guess like most audiophiles I want my cake and eat it too! I want transparency/accuracy/dynamics as well as a wide and deep soundstage that doesn't depend on a 12" on-axis listening/positioning limitation. Are there any designs that meet these qualifications?
128x128dawgbyte
My Europas also have a rather narrow sweet spot. With that said, once outside of the sweet-spot, there still is a sense of seperation and imaging, but it's not nearly as intense, for lack of a better word. Of course, I'm listening to them from about 6 feet away, so that might have something to do with it. I also have a rather oddly shaped room. I would still buy them again in a second, since I tend to only do critical listening from that sweet spot anyway.
Single driver systems are also not immune to issues...one is asking alot of a driver to carry the full frequency load...which is why many single driver systems are rolled off on the top and have no bass...and have severe "beaming" problems...however...they are improving...and have some benefits:high efficiency being one....
This begs the question, if you are outside the sweet spot which sounds better, a 4th order x-over or 1st. 4th order makes driver / room interaction negigible so I would think 1st would only be better in the sweet spot.
Cdc - I think you may be on to something. A few years ago when I was auditioning speakers I visited a B&W dealer and was amazed at how narrow the sweet spot was for virtually all their speakers except the most expensive Nautalus series. The dealer switched out CD players and altered the position of the speakers and still if I moved my head 10 inches in either direction I was off-axis. Call me crazy, but I just can't imagine anyone enjoying that type of experience at home.

If 360 degree dispersion designs can create a wide and deep soundstage, generate compelling dynamics and the transparency and realism that audiophiles crave then why aren't more people buying into this design theory. Gallo's Ref. III's and Ohm's Walsh series are both getting good press reviews, but I don't see a lot of posters on this board or others flocking to those designs. The Ohm Walsh series is very intriguing, but IMO they aren't the least bit aesthetically pleasing. The Gallo's look very cool, but can they really deliver?

Dynamic vs. Passive, Stats vs. Planars vs. Horns et. al. When are we going to get a speaker that fills a room with the type of sound that blows us away and doesn't cost the same as a Mercedes? Why buy a $8K pair of speakers that require one to sit at the exact spot to recieve the full measure of the design? It's all so confusing.
Dawgbyte, yeah first order systems generally have a small sweet spot where they are in absolute phase. My Europa's are no different. Having said that, at least they HAVE one. Second, fourth order designs don't. I'll take that small sweet spot over NO sweet spot anyday. Besides, even when two rooms removed from the Europa's, they still sound remarkably coherant. I asked Roy from GMA about this and he said since the speakers are time/phase aligned, sound that hits the wall and reflects into the room is more coherent than other order crossovers. There is no perfect speaker, but to these ears, which were recently tested to be better than textbook, 1st order is closer to the musical truth.