A pragmatic view of cartridge expenses / many questions
Trying to see what your thoughts are on cartridge expenses? Do you buy cartridges and replace or retip after it’s worn? Cartridges are like tires for cars in some ways. You have to replace the tires after they wear out.
If you own an ultra expensive cartridge, let’s say, over 7k, is that your main spinner? Do you do a factory retip at costs exceeding thousands? Do some of you who own high cost cartridges use them only for special occasions, similar to drinking Dom Perigon for some special event, and use a normal not so exotic cartridge for regular day to day use and perhaps non-audiophile records. I am sure each of us have our own price threshold and thoughts of high end cartridges. I only said 7k, because that seems to me a fair price point to describe a very expensive cartridge.
My thoughts are that having a few normally priced cartridges around is a good thing, due to the wear and tear, and replacing or retippimg would also be less costly. I do lust after some high end cartridges and if I do obtain one, my philosophy would be as described above. Enjoy for special occasions, and use a less costly for normal day to day listens. Geez, it feels like we are trying to separate our car cruises from a sports car feel to a luxury limo ride feel, in some ways. What’s your opinion on expendability of cartridges?
I don't know that cartridges are a whole lot more expendable than anything else. Sure if you play a lot of records its possible I guess to wear one out. But then you sell it used just as you would any other component. I always have. Then buy a better one, same as anything else.
Then when you get to the level you're talking about it really makes sense to get the Soundsmith Strain Gauge. Costs a little more than $7k but actually costs a whole lot less because with it you eliminate the need for a phono stage that could easily run you $5k to $15k or more at that level. Plus you get a cartridge with user replaceable stylus that is dirt cheap, relatively speaking.
It even has an upgrade path, the power supply being capable of elevating performance well into the stratosphere of the very best cost no object carts.
Dear @audioquest4life : " Enjoy for special occasions, and use a less costly for normal day to day listens. "
Depend of which is your main target/priority listening your room/system.
If that main priority/target is to stay as nearer to the recording and MUSIC as you can then you have to invest in the best cartridge you can 7k or 10K whatever and when is near the end of its stylus tip life then send it to the manufacturer directly not a re-tipper no matters what.
Chapagne is a bad example against cartridge. It’s like red wine Petrus or Chateu Laffite or Margaux that you drink it to celebrate only in very special ocasion but if you are whealty enough then you will drinked always, day by day !
In for a dime; in for ten thousand bucks. Be nice to your cartridge but enjoy the heck out of it. By the time it wears down to the point where you have to replace it (barring catastrophe, of course), chances are there'll be something better...and perhaps even cheaper.
“By the time it wears down to the point where you have to replace it (barring catastrophe, of course), chances are there'll be something better...and perhaps even cheaper.“
Amen. Seems similar to computers nowadays. I guess enjoy it as much as you can and decide on a factory refurbish or replacement later as needed.
@miilercarbon,
“Then when you get to the level you're talking about it really makes sense to get the Soundsmith Strain Gauge. Costs a little more than $7k but actually costs a whole lot less because with it you eliminate the need for a phono stage that could easily run you $5k to $15k or more at that level. Plus you get a cartridge with user replaceable stylus that is dirt cheap, relatively speaking.”
This is suggestive of someone looking to jump into those components and price range who either have not splurged on a total high end normal cartridge solution, or have researched and decided that the Strain Gauge is for them. I have considerable investments in my phono pre and have researched the Strain Gauge....have not heard one except at a couple of audio shows, and from what others are writing about on forums and reviews. It’s not for everyone as their is a perceived sound signature associated with it. At that price range, it’s competitive with other cartridges and the fact you don’t have to worry about exuberant maintenance costs, but, with the other cartridges, it’s an evil necessity. Not making a case against or for the Strain Gauge either way, it’s just that you mentioned it as an example for long term cost savings, which, would be for someone willing to step into that direction. Do you use a Strain Gauge? I would only buy original replacement Michelin Sport Cup 2s for my Porsche or Corvette as that’s what is standard from the factory as a compete rebuild for the high priced cartridge. The exceptions are Soundsmith and Van den Hul, as their factory retip prices are reasonable.
When someone buying a $5-10k cartridge I hope this person already tried at least over 50 different cartridges prior to buying the most expensive one. I hope a decision to buy even $5k cartridge is rational (in fact it is irrational for sure, imo). If you are not happy with so many great cartridges that cost under $2k then maybe it's a rational decision to look for something else. But you can find a cheaper cartridge that will perform better than more expensive cartridge. All you need is to buy many and try them, compare them yourself on your system.
A phono cartridge should not cost that much! There is nothing inside a cartridge that can cost that much, this is all about margin (and marketing).
It can be damaged as easy as any cheap cartridge, but the factory exchange will cost the owner at least 60% of the retail price, so when you damage $7k cartridge you can get another one for about $4200 if you're lucky (your sample must be from the official distributor, who can send it back to the manufacturer to get new one instead). The cost of using such cartridges is insane! And you can't use it longer than about 2500hrs anyway even if you have the best tip on it.
The price often has nothing to do with the quality. After using some overpriced modern cartridges at $3-5k range I am happy to get back to the basics and keep using some NOS samples of the best high-end from the 80s (MM,MI and MC) that cost me much less in price and sound better.
New cartridges and its design is not any better that top models from the golden age (70s/80s). Most of the greatest (legendary) cartridge designed are passed away or retired.
Audioquest4life, I am not particularly fond of tonearms with removable head shells (except the 4 Points) and changing cartridges is a PITA. So , for most of my life with one turntable and tonearm I kept two cartridges, my current favorite and my previous current favorite in case something happened to the first current favorite. I always managed to get a new cartridge before any stylus wore out perhaps every three years or so and never sent a cartridge out for retipping and I doubt I ever will. With two tables and two or more tonearms it becomes a different situation. It becomes easier to compare cartridges but with multiple cartridges running it becomes even less likely that you will wear one out. With clean static free records and a properly set up arm styli can go a very long ways. Megabuck cartridges cost megabucks to retip which is most definitely a rip off IMHO. As an example a Clearaudio Charisma costs $1200 to retip. The Clearaudio Goldfinger costs $9600 to retip. They have exactly the same cantilever and stylus. Who would buy a Goldfinger retipped by some budget retipper? Not me. But, people who can afford a $16,000 cartridge usually have several and the likelihood they would wear one out diminishes rapidly. As for utilization, certain cartridges are better with certain music. I have learned with a recent purchase that modern MM cartridges excel at Rock while MC cartridges do better with string quartets. From now on I will have one of each type Qed up ready to use. I do not have a MC cartridge that is as aggressive as the Clearaudio Charisma I recently purchased and playing classical most would think it was a MC cartridge. Very pleased with this. So much so that I suspect it will curtail my spending on expensive MC cartridges which I am dead sure are aggressively overpriced. Next I might try a Soundsmith cartridge to see what that is about.
Audioquest4life, my 911s will only get 8000 miles out of rear Cup 2S For every day use Michelin Sport 4S are wonderful. I get 20,000 miles on those and there is no difference in handling off track. For track use get P Zero Trofeo Rs and really burn up the money. $2000/day:) I just saw my first midengined Corvette. I'm sure it is the performance value of the century but according to recent press it feels like a Jeep and worse it is at least to my eyes huge and ugly. Ferrari still corners the market on the best looking cars. The new Gordon Murry car looks nice. Mclarens are not bad but not up to Ferrari in the looks department. My ultimate car remains the Singer 911 followed by the Eagle GT.
“The price often has nothing to do with the quality. After using some overpriced modern cartridges at $3-5k range I am happy to get back to the basics and keep using some NOS samples of the best high-end from the 80s (MM,MI and MC) that cost me much less in price and sound better.” I am tracking with you on that point for sure. My first high end cartridge, the original Benz LP, was a revelation into great sounding cartridge instruments. I heard the Koetsu Onyx and Jade and thought the Benz LP was not giving up much in sound quality, if any at all, compared to these stone body cartridges. There was a distinct difference in sound and the stones seemed to exhume a naturalness that the Benz does provide, but at a lower level. But, I always thought that if one day I could afford it, I would probably get a stone body Koetsu because of the revelatory listening experience I heard at the time. Today, there are so many cartridges at varying price points that compete with far higher price cartridges, that I think it’s a great time to be into records. A previous comment about downward trickle effect and better technologies allowing for better sound at lower prices is so true. What 80s cartridges have you compared with higher priced ones? I have had my share of Shur, Pickering, ADC, Audio Technica, Denon, as I was growing up and they are still part of my everyday living room setup.
You can compare any overpriced Koetsu to the Fidelity-Research FR-7fz yourself. You can also compare Koetsu to Miyabi Standard if you can find one, but not to Swiss made Benz.
Compare Japanese cartridges to some other Japanese cartridges.
The fact that Koetsu still in business does not make this cartridge any better, because the Yoshiaki Sugano is not making them anymore. He is the one who made the name and reputation of Koetsu, but Garrott Brothers in Australia pointed out how purely they were made and always fixed them for the original owners.
If you want to know more about modern high-end business model you have to read
Mr. Andreoli's comments (he's another legend in business, trained by Garrott Brothers long time ago).
I will tell again to everyone that buying a cartridges like Koetsu top models for insane prices is not exactly what audiophiles must do to enjoy the music. This is only a part of the luxury life of some very rich people.
If you want to find the best sounding cartridges you don't have to pay insane prices! The key is the knowledge and personal experience.
What 80s cartridges have you compared with higher priced ones? I have had my share of Shure, Pickering, ADC, Audio Technica, Denon, as I was growing up and they are still part of my everyday living room setup.
I have compares so many, but let me point you to some of the best without making this list so long:
**Moving Magnet:
AT-ML180 OCC Grace LEVEL II BR/MR Grace F14 Excellent (this is exact name of the model). Pickering XLZ-7500 (low impedance version with extremely low output). Pickering XSV-5000 Victor X1II
**Moving Coil:
Miyabi Standard Ortofon MC2000 Grace Asakura One Victor MC-L10 Ikeda 9C III FR-7fz
... I could add many more even for much lover price that all of these above. I have all these cartridges now in NOS or MINT condition, and i'm not referring to my memories (from 30 years ago). I am listening my system with those cartridges now in 2020. And i will never buy any modern high-end cartridge for $3-5k again - this is a rip-off (or a ticket to sect of elitists who often know nothing about cartridges, but got money to pay the bills believing that anything new and modern in audio business is the best, but it's not true).
Thanks for the insight. As a matter of fact, I do have two tonearms, SME Vs. They are mounted on a Transrotor Apollon and I do swap cartridge use between a Benz LPs, Soundsmith Sussaro MKIi and Benz Ruby Z. I just received a Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius to demo. I am sending my Aesthetix IO Signature for an upgrade this winter to get the volume and dual phono inputs, and an Eclipse upgrade, which would make it easier to use both tonearms. I don’t get why higher price cartridges have to have such painful refurbished price policies as the costs to manufacture them are already absorbed in production. Granted, 24 karat gold windings and machined exotic materials are expensive, but, you already paid the price for admission. A cantilever and/or tip should not be that expensive. I guess they do serve an audience, of which I am not. That’s why I asked....the more reasonably priced cartridges have less price premium to refurbish. I know, it’s logarithmic with the price strategy of the high end cartridges...but again, we know that it’s unreasonable. For some, that’s not an issue. I do look for bargains in getting cartridges that go on sale or for ones I could trade in to get an upgrade. Essentially, owning records and being aware of cartridge wear go hand and hand with each other. The more you enjoy playing your music, the more use of cartridge, and voila, time to either factory retip or trade in. What’s a reasonable break even point in today’s cartridge market? Is there even such a thing? All good points, thank you.
Speaking of Elvis, I found a few RCA Victor Victrolas for sale. They are autographed. Not sure if that correlates to Elvis having owned these or not, but he endorsed them.
Pragmatic audiophile! What is that? I guess I just enjoy the ability to switch between different cartridges for different moods and music. This requires a turntable/tonearm that makes changing carts easy and a good universal protractor. A flexible phono pre-amp like the Pass XP-27 doesn’t hurt either! Currently switching between a Koetsu RSP, SoundSmith SussurroES, Ortofon A90 and a Lyra Etna SL. Lots of different flavors of excellence.
Dear @audioquest4life : " I just received a Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius to demo. "
I owned at least 3-4 Colibri cartridges I still own one of them.
The Colibri is a great quality performer if you own the " rigth " phonolinepreamp.
I owned the Colibri with wood and polycarbonate cartridge body and with different output levels and the best ones are the Colibri not with wood body but polycarbonate one and the Colibri with 0.22mv output, the higher output are really a different cartridge.
I owned too not only a stone Koetsu’s but the RSP too and these Koetsu are low output too and needs tha " rigth " phonolinepreamp. Even the cartridges you own need it too. I owned the LP and the Ruby’s too.
I owned your SME V and mounted there several cartridges including top performance Lyra’s that starting with the Kleos to the Etna’s are really good ones.
Btw, maybe could be time that you think to own a different tonearm that can gives you more options of different carrtridges that the V because the Koetsu stone models is not a good match as other great cartridge options outhere as the Goldfinger and the like. Maybe the new gimbal bearing Durand or the new VPI gimbaled or the Kuzma 4point can help you more than the V in the near future if you are looking for a new great cartridge.
Thank for your feedback. It’s all relative but not going down another rabbit hole for tonearms. Been there done that. Kicked out dealers from my home in Germany bragging about this and that, and at the end of the day, It’s subjective. Your opinion is subjective to me because I know my equipment, my room, and have many differing listening experiences than you. My phono stage can do 80db gain, not many can do that. Too me the VPI only edges the SME V due to its ability to adjust VTA easier. Note, I said easier. Anyone who owns and sets up SME tonearms knows how to make adequate VTA adjustments, it just takes time. The Kuzma 4 point we tested against a SME V on a Transrotor Turbillon. We all preferred the sound with the SME V and Koetsu Onyx on this system. We swapped a Pass Labs with my own Aesthetix IO Signature, while different sounding, we all enjoyed the music the same. If you are finicky about tubes, stay away from tube products, that’s all. Back to cartridges, what’s your stance on cartridge purchases? Do you opt for more mainstream with good returns on investment? Meaning, your apt to shop around for cartridges with good price performance ratios which also allow for trading in, or up, and/or easily remanufactured by a factory? Ciao, Audioquest4life
Dear @audioquest4life : "
good returns on investment? "
The only return I looking for is that the cartridge honor MUSIC reproduction that can puts me nearer to the recording and that's all thaT MATTERS TO ME.
MUSIC is all about MUSIC, hardware is only a necessity for. Obviously your needs/priorities are way different from mines.
I'd say get the best ( note: not highest price...) cart that 1) you can afford 2) works with your sonic priorities and 3) mates well with your tonearm. Play and enjoy! Modern styli, played on decently clean records last quite a while...
Audioquestforlife you are certainly going to need that 80db with the Strat. Not so sure I am sold on the single pole idea. Anyway, I am more interested on what you think of the Soundsmith and how it compares to your Benz. Thanx:)
@audioquest4life : "
My phono stage can do 80db gain. "
Mine too but gain is only one critical issue with LOMC cartridges, there are a lot more than gain down there. Any phono stage main target should has: very low noise level ( if I have 80db of gain it's a must this noise level. ), few gain stages, wide frequency range, very low inverse RIAA eq. frequency deviation, very low distortion levels.
Example about: my unit not only has active high gain but its RIAA eq. deviation is: 0.012db.
I'm just a poor old guy ,looking for the best for less.I don't have the money.If I did I probably would buy really expensive cartridges. The costs have gone threw the roof.Im a guy who bought Shure carts .Which always sounded good to me .Now I have a Ofton Blue. Used on a Nad c588 tt..Yes I see these 8,000 cartridges. But I need a new car ....
First I spent on everything else, that doesn't wear out much. Then I built an ultrasonic record cleaner, and cleaned all my records a few times. Then I bought a big Koetsu.
Factory rebuild costs a bomb - but, after 1000 hours, there is minimal wear (objectively speaking - a photomicrograph). At this rate, I'll need one rebuild, maybe two in my lifetime, and I have few remaining audio expenses. So I use it most of the time.
“you are certainly going to need that 80db with the Strat. Not so sure I am sold on the single pole idea. Anyway, I am more interested on what you think of the Soundsmith and how it compares to your Benz. Thanx:)“
Sure. My take is that the Sussaro MKII exceeds the performance of the Benz LPS, but, in a way that is not dramatic, but definitely better. Compared to each other, I would say the Benz LPS is more lush, but it’s quite good at detail retrieval and subtle notes. The Sussaro MKII brings out the voices better. In fact, the entire soundstage is larger and more holographic with the Sussaro MKII. I am not knocking the Benz LPS because it is very good, but as they say, technology never sleeps and the Sussaro MKII does music playback better. The Benz LPS has been the same since the middle of the 2000s I believe. My reference test LPs which I play that have some great voicing and others with brass instruments really showcase how much better the mids are with the Sussaro MKIi. If anything, I would say it would be almost the same upgrade going from the Benz LP to the Benz LPS. You get more of what was already good. The Benz LPS always sounded good to me with the exception that I felt the voices were not much pronounced and somewhat subdued. With the Sussaro MKIi, I get all of what i Iiked in the Benz LPS and then some, especially with voicing and soundstage. The Benz LPS has been my reference cartridge for years and it was not until replacement parts and price became an issue, that I started looking at others. Hence, the Soundsmith Sussaro MKIi.
Speaking of other cartridges, I just did some preliminary testing with the VDH Crimson....it’s a totally different type of presentation. Fast, robust mids and highs, and very fast attack on bass. Tracking at 1.5 and using 20 ohm loading for now. Compared to the Sussaro, the Crimson is hyper analytical. Will see how long this will last. It’s a used demo and I am seeing if it meshes with my ears and equipment. I had to turn the mids and tweeters down on my field coil speakers to give you an idea of what I am describing. It was a straightforward install onto the SME V arm. Did not change gain at all. Audioquest4life
If the assertion (premise) is not true than deduced statements from the assertion can't be true also. In +40 years in this hobby and more than 60 cartridges I never wear out any of them. Is there such thing as ''imagined wear''?
Hi audioquest4life Pirelli P Zero have always been homologated for the fastest Porsches. Dunlop have recently joined. That said, like you I favour the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. At a recent Club trackday I counted more than 4 to 1 on Michelins and not a single Dunlop.
Clearthinker, Michelin is now making N0 tires again so you can feel comfortable putting them on. The dealers will never use anything but N0 or N1 tires. I have seen new Porsches come through with mostly P zeros as you suggest but also Michelins and Goodyears! P zeros don't last a whole lot longer than the track tires. I burn then up then switch to Michelin Super Sports now Sport 4S.
Audioquest for life. I have not yet owned a VDH cartridge. They are very compliant for MC cartridges and my current arms are probably a bit too heavy but your SME V's are perfect. My next arm will have adjustable effective mass (Schroder or Reed.) VDH reviews are uniformly good. Next time around (after I get the arm) I'll do either a VDH or Allaerts. Right at the moment my Favorite MC is the Lyra atlas (not Lamda) followed by the Ortofon Windfeld Ti. But as I have said in previous posts the Clearaudio Charisma is the nuts for high energy music. It's presentation is a little on the darker side, unusual for a Clearaudio but it is by a fair margin the most dynamic cartridge I have ever used. Percussion is otherworldly and the bass is not far behind. While not as detailed as a MC anybody listening would think it was one until I spilled the news. It is certainly superior to any $2000 MC cartridge that I have heard. MM buyers will not spend as much money on a cartridges as MC buyers will in general. I think this forces the prices down. To bad MC buyers were not more frugal.
Responding to your OP, I do approach with life cycle cost in-mind. I have two tonearms a VPI 10.5i with Soundsmith Carmen and a VPI 12-3D with Soundsmith Paua. I setup the Soundsmith Carmen based on life cycle cost (got a great a price on the 10.5i). I listen to music ~3hrs every day (~1000 hrs/yr). I have a number of records that are not 'audiophile' grade and why waste the Paua. I am partial to Soundsmith because of their acoustic presentation; they are very easy to drive - you not need a $$$phono preamp to get good results, they are quiet, and the cartridges can be 'rebuilt' - not retipped, but rebuilt with a completely renewed suspension. So, when you get the cartridge back - its essentially new and requires a break-in period for the new suspension. I purchased the Soundsmith Carmen MKII (hype-elliptical diamond - VTF 1.45 gm) on sale for $699.
From a life cycle/performance cost, the Soundsmith Carmen MKII is a bargain. Because of the low VTF, you should be able to get 1000-hrs and Soundsmith "rebuilds" the cartridge for $199. So a 2,000-hr cost is [($699 + $199)/2000-hrs] = ~$0.45/hr-use, and at 3000-hrs = $1100 = $0.37/hr-use.
Compare that to an Ortofon 2M Black with Shibata stylus that is $750 plus ~$550 for new stylus, so the 2000-hr cost is $1300 = $0.65/hr-use, and at 3000 hrs cost is $1850 = $0.62/hr-use.
Now for my Paua, I bought the cartridge on sale for $2500 and I am into the first rebuild ($550), so the 2000-hr cost = [($2500 + $550)/2000] = $1.53/hr. However, one item to note is that Peter personally rebuilds all the top tier cartridges and turnaround can be 8-weeks. The Carmen is rebuilt by staff, and turnaround should be just a few weeks.
Of course, the above analysis is useless if you do not like the sound of the Soundsmith Carmen/Paua, but the analysis is presented as a way to access a cartridge life cycle cost. But, make no mistake, digital can beat analogue life cycle cost easily because the average laser or digital component MTBF is at least 5000-hrs (but sadly the 30,000-hr MTBF of the Phillips benchmark glass optic lasers are history). However, if you have the financial resources, life cycle cost means nothing, but this OP was asking if a pragmatic approach was used.
Thank you for the detailed cost of ownership analysis. That is clearly the line of thought I was thinking as I tried to pose my question. Not many people are keen or know what Mean Time Before Failure Rate (MTBF) is. I had to be aware of MTBF for mass storage hard drives back in the early 90s working at the hospital. It’s a factor that is not highly publicized in many products anymore. You have to look at the individual components to get a glimpse of MTBF...such as processors operating within specs (temp, normal speed, etc.), or lasers as you stated, for example.
I agree with you regarding the maintenance and upkeep costs, and the sound qualities of the Soundsmith cartridges. They do have a blend of musical exceptionalities that enlighten my listening senses. For that reason, I will probably stick with Soundsmith for a while. Nothing really to complain about. Of course, you know us audiophiles, if something were to fall into my lap and I had the means to test, I will always do that to squelch that curiosity. And, as with cars, we are in the Wheel and deal business....trade in or trade up when it suits you. What do you think about the Soundsmith Hyperion😀 Tires...Another great factory racing tire, believe it or not, was the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar which was standard on the Corvette C5 Z06. Happy listening.
Ferrari used the Eagle F1 on several of its cars. Mussolini rolled in his grave. I believe Porsche has also but Ferdinand wouldn't give a hoot. Cactus spines? I suppose if Frank Schroder (he collects cacti) says so. I think MTBF in terms of cartridge expense involves to many uncontrollable variables to mean much other than MM cartridge are much less expensive to own over time. If you want real value get a Grado Prestige Gold. That will run you $0.25/hr or less
“Ferrari used the Eagle F1 on several of its cars. Mussolini rolled in his grave. I believe Porsche has also but Ferdinand wouldn't give a hoot.” 😂
The costs over time are what interest me as I approach retirement. I know with fixed income in retirement that I cannot splurge as much as I want compared to now. Have to research the Grado.
Dear @audioquest4life : "
Compared to the Sussaro, the Crimson is hyper analytical. "
Well, that speaks of the quality level performance of your room/system and what you like .
I said that because the vdH cartridges are not " hyper analytical " especially the wood body models and with higher output level as the model you have. vdH are different than the Sussurro ( that I already listened. I don't listen the Sussaro you named. ) but never anlytical and " hiper " is out of question. Something is not rigth in your whole set up.
Obviously that unfortunatelly the Colibri is not for you and I say " unfortunatelly " because is a great top quality performer in the rigth room/system overall set up.
@terry9 "
At this rate, I'll need one rebuild, maybe two in my lifetime, "
imagine if you own the Allaerts Formula One that according with the designer/manufacturer information can gives you 10K hours !
The ''loose reference''. I was nearly lynched when I asked the question: ''are you sure that retips by Ledermann are done by Ledermann''? I think that I am even more entitled to ask the uquestion : ''are you sure that Van den Hul is Van den Hul"? To my knowledge he produces just one single cart per week. Just to keep his skills in order. He spend more time in Ukraine selling to their aircraft indutry his wires. Then one can see unusual many Van den Hul carts one second hand market. As is, I hope , known people do not separte easilly from their best carts. Nobody knows how many employee both ''masters'' have, What do you think those are for? Raul, I understand passion and love but not ''blind love''.
I think cactus spine is a wonderful idea. It's a tapered tube (or is it a rod?) and so is inherently anti-resonant. It's been shaped for rigidity and strength by evolution. And it's recommended by Schroeder and Lederman, who has done extensive testing. If I had the extra loot, I'd do it.
“I said that because the vdH cartridges are not " hyper analytical " especially the wood body models and with higher output level as the model you have. vdH are different than the Sussurro ( that I already listened. I don't listen the Sussaro you named. ) but never anlytical and " hiper " is out of question. Something is not rigth in your whole set up.”
Again, that’s your subjective opinion, not mine, which is objective...I am the one hearing it in my system and that’s the way it sounds to me. Not properly setup...please! You don’t know me and my audio setup skills, and that’s a totally subjective opinion as well. After setting up a least few dozen cartridges one gets used to the initial sound impressions. You should know that based on your vast MM listening experiences. To understand what I meant previously, you need to read what I stated...I am experimenting with a used Crimson and evaluating different loading options as part of that experiment. And my initial thoughts are that it is hyper analytical compared to my Sussaro MKII. Next, I will try some other settings to either validate or invalidate my impressions. I will also compare the Crimson to my Benz LPS to see what the differences are between those two. Adjusting for loading, Gain VTA, anti skate, overhang, VTF, are easy to me so I don’t have a problem swapping cartridges.
But, back to the subject at hand, the cost performance ratio is all over the place, and quantifying a cartridge purchase with audio listening pleasure verses operating costs, is really individually rationalized by each of us in some way. I would say that as we gain more experiences and learn the intricacies of our own system and listening habits, it’s easy to formulate an opinion on what’s important, no matter the costs. Whether a low or high priced cartridge, some sort of rationalization must have been made to decide on the acquisition. Of course, and I am guilty of this as well, sometimes you say what the heck and splurge without second thought, which may be perceived as irrational behavior...it’s a hobby, enjoy while you can. Even if your told your setup is wrong!
Please consider ultra-sonic record cleaning before you buy something really big. Not only does it improve the quality of the sound, but it improves the longevity of the cartridge.
I have a Clearaudio Double Matrix for cleaning purposes. I am looking at getting an ultrasonic cleaner to augment my cleaning regiment. 8,000 plus records and counting....always will have a mechanical cleaner for sure.
Dear @audioquest4life : " Not properly setup...please! "
well that 20ohms loading means something about and this is not subjective.
" After setting up a least few dozen cartridges one gets used to the initial sound impressions. You should know that based on your vast MM listening experiences. "
Rigth, NO not exactly. The MM was a nice adventure and nothing else but a nice experiences ( " thousands " of it and way different the set up than LOMC ones. ) but I’m a LOMC cartridge advocate and my experiences with came from the Denon 103 passing through 100+ other LOMC ones including today top of the line ones. You can name almost any top vintage or today LOMC cartridge and you can be sure I owned or own or I listened it in my system.
My post to you is not subjective because you posted that loading and I know your phono stage and your tonearm and the cartridge and that can’t be improved by any kind of speaker or amplifier or room conditioning you have it. The best that can do speaker/room/amps is to degrade, at minimum if you like, the cartridge signal never can improve it and this is way objective in any way not subjective. I don't want to go deeper on this objective/subjective issue with your system.
Btw, MUSIC belongs not to the mid frequency range but to the frequency extremes. As better both ranges as better all frequency range harmonics.
Anyway:
" .it’s a hobby, enjoy while you can. Even if your told your setup is wrong! "
At the end of the day, I am very satisfied with the cartridges I own and appreciate the insight from some of you regarding cost performance ratio and long term ownership costs. It’s something I thought would be of interest to a few who are evaluating ownership costs, and if your like me, leaving the work force in a few years with reduced funding for your hobbies.
My system makes beautiful music as is...but, guess what, I am going to purchase the Hyperion, and Koetsu Jade. One reason is that I can trade up in the Soundsmith line, and the second reason is Jade is my birthstone. Talk about irrational purchases. Did not even take my own advice. Sounds all too familiar around these forums.
Regarding the Soundsmith Hyperion I heard it at the Capital Audio Show 2018 in the VPI suite. They had two HW40 turntables setup - one with the Soundsmith Hyperion the other with the Lyra Etna. They were playing a Louis Armstrong record - moving it from turntable to turntable. The speakers were a big set of Wilson Audio.
To my ears the difference was not subtle.
The Lyra Etna played Louis Armstrong as if he was singing in Aspen, CO - low humidity and crisp. The Soundsmith Hyperion played Louis Armstrong as if he was in New Orleans - humid and dense. Which was right - to the ears of the beholder.
Dear AQ4L, It is good to have you back on this forum. Like Raul, I was a bit surprised to read somewhere here that you are happily loading your newly acquired for demo VDH at 20 ohms. You’ve said elsewhere that your phono stage (the Aesthetix Io?) produces 80db of gain and that you also have a Pass XP27 or access to one. Since your phono stages produce so much gain, I gather you are not using a SUT to step up signal voltage from the VDH. This makes me wonder why you’ve chosen to load the VDH at 20 ohms. Every VDH is slightly different from every other VDH, so I don’t know what is the internal impedance of your particular model, but that seems like an excessive load (20 ohms) for any LOMC that has any higher than a 2-ohm internal resistance. How did you arrive at 20 ohms? Have you tried increasing the load R (in other words, reducing the load)?
Mijo, Why would Mussolini, alive or dead, have any reaction to tires on a Ferrari? Ferrari was founded in 1948, and Mussolini was strung upside down and murdered by his own people in 1943. Benito never knew there would be a Ferrari marque, although he may have known Enzo, who was a successful driver in the 30s, before he became Commendatore of his eponymous car company.
Back to serious business. Audioquest, nature is full of surprises. Making a tapered cantilever is not easy. Making one that is tough and light is even harder. I suspect Frank Schroder has detailed the thorns characteristics and thinks they make an ideal cantilever. This proof is in the listening and tracking performance/ Problem is you really have to spend $8K to find out unless you can find a low mileage used one from a trusted source. If I get a Soundsmith it will be the Hyperion. If I don't like it it will be sold immediately to some lucky person. I have turned over several cartridges that way. As far as the Koetsu is concerned it would not be my first choice in a low compliance MC. I lean towards the Air Tight and My Sonic Lab. But if you have to have jade go for it but you'd best have a heavy arm. SME V's will need a lot of added mass and I am not sure they can counter balance it but you would no better than I.
Lewm, thanx for the history lesson. Ferrari was a second rate driver. Scuderia Ferrari was his team and they started racing Alfa's in the 30's. Mussolini was an Italian, everything had to be Italian. When Tazio Nuvolari came from behind in an under powered Alfa to beat the Germans in the German Grand Prix Benito held a big celebration. Anyway, an Italian car has to have Italian tires. The thought of American tires on one of his cars would have pissed him off. But alas, times have changed. We have a global economy and great cultures are losing their identity.
Thank you for the hearty welcome. It’s been a while for sure. Overseas work for military and feds keeps you busy. I am trying to find where I stated I was loading it at 20 ohms, but if I did, it was for experimental purposes only. I did start at 4.5K, the setting I am using for the Soundsmith MKII, and from there tried 47k, and then 20, and finally, 243. The specification tag for the Crimson was hand written in Euro script with two different loading ranges, 1. 20-250, 2. 47k. Having learned that loading on MC cartridges needs to be listened to in order to lock in best sound, I made bold adjustments, and the recommended ones as well. Of course, we all know the entire chain from cartridge to phono amp will influence loading somewhat. Which translates into it being a crap shoot with an optimal value/s as tested by the manufacturer. I view the ranges set by the manufacturer as being a baseline for users to be able to adjust their systems easier. Some trial and error is almost an absolute.
I am with you regarding the Hyperion, if I don’t like it, some other person will. Same with the Jade. Ironically, the weight of the Benz LPS is 16.4 grams, and the Jade is 12.5 grams. To be honest, I thought the SME V was going to need the accessory weight they sell for ultra heavy cartridges. But, I did not. The SME V was able to handle the Benz LPS with ease, but it was very close. I was able to adjust the tracking force and, voila, music.
Audioquest, there is a thread on higher end Koetsu's, and the consensus seemed to be that the Diamond Cantilever option was worth the money. To some. I agree, I have one.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
