I was talking to my dealer about how good the system sounds that he sold me. I mentioned that I had tried some new speaker/interconnect cables from a local amp/cable manufacturer & both I and the company boss agreed that there was little discernible sound difference between his cables & mine. He couldn’t understand why. He also told me that my room acoustics were amazing, top notch. He’d like me to bring my cables (& his) to his listening room & we’ll compare there. That’s for next week.
My dealer said that in his 40 years this has never happened & he was ready to rise to the challenge. He said he would send me a couple of AQ Hurricane power cords to try on my amp/pre and I’d be amazed. I said why bother, send some Dragons. He told me to connect them to my amp & preamp & I should be amazed within 10 seconds of comparing. Today I received a Dragon HC & Source power cord. I listened to some music I’m very familiar with through my Lumin T3 playing FLAC files from the attached USB. Then I swapped the amp & pre to the Dragons and listened to the same songs. No difference that I could tell. So I redid the test, one song at a time, switching back & forth. Still no difference.
I invited two neighbors over (separately) and asked them to look at my FLAC library & choose a song that they knew well. I played that for them with both sets of power cords. One said he couldn’t hear any difference between the two. The other said that one (mine) sounded like it had slightly more treble, the other (Dragon) sounded like more bass. I played a third version (turned out it was mine but he didn’t know) and he said that was the bass version. He was wrong & admitted that the differences were so small that he really couldn’t choose between the two.
I called my dealer & he asked if the difference was earth shattering. I told him no & he asked how that was possible when he just sent similar cables to another customer last week with a similarly priced system as mine & that guy said that the SQ improved 50% and was ecstatic. I said that that guy must have decided already that he was going to buy them and determined that for that money they must improve the sound. My dealer said that either my ears are those a near dead 95 year old or his last 40 years experience have been a sham. I suggested that he was selling & demoing a product to people that had a propensity to believe it worked & therefore it worked for them. I offered to have him drive here (4 hour drive) and listen for himself & I’ll swap cables while his mind is blown. We may get there yet.
I hesitate to post a photo of my listening room as experience tells me that those that are strong proponents of cables will pick it apart and blame a myriad of other crap rather than recognizing that the 3 of us heard no difference on a high resolving system situated in a room would good acoustics... but here goes.
Wow, what a stunning system in a fantastic room the OP has. Too bad this thread went off the rails, but as many others have posted, if you don't hear a difference, stick with your excellent Mogami cables. Good for you to try different wire. I wish wire didn't make a difference, but often it does.
I have a Don Sachs Raven preamp and his 300b monos, which both have balanced circuitry end to end. I was connecting the two components with decent Black Ice XLR cables until Paul Speltz sent me his new top of the line XLR cables for an audition -- which Don Sachs uses in his system, and I was utterly blown away with the improvement in the SQ, instantly revealed. I have swapped cables for years and this was a real "ah ha" moment placing these XLR cables in my system. Never ever in my audio experience has a cable provided so much clarity to the sound of my system. The point is that you don't know what you are missing if you don't try different cables, because some can make a huge difference. BUT, don't lament not hearing a difference when you swap cables... it might mean that your existing cables are revealing enough. Be wary of dealers that over promise and under deliver.
As it turns out the OP and I live nearby, relatively speaking. I am going over to visit his nice hi fi room this weekend with some of my equipment. We will swap around some gear and some cables and see what our ears tell us. Stay tuned.
The electricity came from a long way off, how is the last couple of feet going to matter? In any case, the first thing an electronic unit does is convert the AC to DC, so it doesn’t matter how pure the AC signal is. But such arguments are pointless with these people, because you can’t use logic and evidence to convince someone who never used logic and evidence to begin with.
there are two things that are taking place here
demonstrating lack of experience
Ad Hominem - labeling everyone who doesn’t share your beliefs as lacking logic, intelligence and common sense (done without any experience to back it up…going straight to assault)
So please…expect to be treated like you treat others. You’re a theorist. Keep theorizing. Share your opinion when you have a real system and some actual experience. Until then go give Amir a foot massage.
Ha, it takes no courage to anonymously discuss an experience with strangers. Audphile1 began a little rough but came around and offered some helpful info in the end. I appreciate comments from all, those who agree with me and those who don’t. I try to learn something from all.
Honestly, I totally understand how @audphile1reacted. The way the first post came across and read, it does kind of look like a plant. Please keep in mind there are plenty of flat-earthers who have a fixed belief system, some have posted inthis thread already, and those who just like to stir things up to feed their craving for controversy. And then when viewers see how little posts you have here it looks even more likely to be a plant.
I almost didn't read beyond the first few sentences, and I am sure many others did not, but I continued on, and then I believed this is a schill for a different cable company. I have now come to the conclusion you are legit. 😉
I will never understand why people get so heated. The OP tried a product and didn’t connect with it.
This whole hobby is a luxury. And a hobby. You should connect with any piece you buy. It’s that simple. OP shouldn’t discredit others when they connect, and no one should try to discredit the OP for not connecting.
If one man’s experience impacts your experience, you are going to have trouble enjoying life.
Not a huge and alarming difference but the kind of thing that once you feel it (as the main difference was the feeling of the bass in my chest) you want to feel it again.
That’s a really good way to put it with regard to cables. The differences or improvements don’t often bowl you over in magnitude like speakers can, but once you hear them they’re meaningful and always there and you don’t really wanna be without them anymore.
Ha, it takes no courage to anonymously discuss an experience with strangers. Audphile1 began a little rough but came around and offered some helpful info in the end. I appreciate comments from all, those who agree with me and those who don’t. I try to learn something from all.
I plan to try a PS Audio P12 for a bit as the power where I live is known to be noisy and prone to brownouts and surges.
I went to Hans Looman’s house (owner of Infigo) on Friday to return his cables and compare his/mine on his system. All he has going is a streamer, DAC, a pair of the monos that he produces (Method 3 I believe) and some Dutch speakers whose name I forget. We swapped his XLRs for mine back and forth a few times and then swapped his speaker wires for mine. He could hear a difference each time but I didn’t. Then we listened to the same song (Uninvited Alanis Morissette) with his speaker and XLR cables and at that point I could hear a much larger presence to the music. I don’t know all of the adjectives that people use to describe music but it definitely sounded better. Not a huge and alarming difference but the kind of thing that once you feel it (as the main difference was the feeling of the bass in my chest) you want to feel it again. So I plan to get the P12 and continue experimenting.
Hans’s monos cost $55k US a pair I think and sound amazing.
Thank you for sharing your story/photos we appreciate your courage and honesty.
I have a power cable that i bought on Amazon and I like it a lot not because it pleases my ears (compared with the stock) but pleases my eyes. Only paid 35 instead of 3500. Oh and there are many paid trolls aka influencers trying to mislead viewers on this forum. You’ve probably recognized them already
You are biased to never hear a difference, so you won’t
If that were the case, blind A/B testing would still prove the truth, because both cable enthusiasts and cable deniers are tested. Blind A/B testing proves that cables make no difference. Especially power cables.
There is a clear lack of understanding of what confirmation bias is and when it does or could apply.
We all know what confirmation bias is, it’s a very simple concept, this is an Ad Hominem attack and unworthy of a polite debate.
Not when it's a 5 hour drive to your house from the store. Initially he said he would come when the equipment arrived but through our discussions he asked if I was ok to set it up. There was a local rep for Pure Fidelity that came out to set up the turntable.
Your system (and setup) from the photo looks great! I bet it's a very enjoyable listen.
I'm of the mind that cables can make a difference, but it is a very subtle one at best, regardless of price paid. Having said this, I've never paid tens of thousands of dollars on cables. And I doubt my system would be resolving enough, anyway.
Or maybe I just don't listen to music in such a way that the differences matter much. Or my hearing maybe sucks. I don't hear a lot of what folks around here are able to hear.
Some people claim they can tell the brand of salt used in a stew. I can't.
A lady I work with says she can smell the smoke coming from a person who had a cigarrette hours earlier outside. Not the smell of smoke on a person's clothing or breath, but from the residual smoke remaining in a smoker's lungs. I can't.
Long-winded way of saying maybe some peoples' hearing are more attuned to hearing the differences, while others, like me, aren't.
The front edge of the speaker is 4' from the wall. I've tried other positions and this was the best for me. There is a 7" monster bass trap behind each speaker and a 17" square soffit trap in the corner. The soundstage is great.
When you spend that kind of money does the dealer not set this system up for you?
One other thing I forgot to mention is to make note of volume level for each of the tracks you use in the evaluation so that you can match it when switching back.
Although confirmation bias is a thing, that doesn’t mean it always overrides listening or that listening is not evidence. Many of us here have spent years listening to and comparing different equipment and have come to trust our ears, but there are those who just can’t accept that and feel the need to continually chime in that we can’t possibly be objective. Whatever. There are many examples here where people (me included) have preferred cheaper products over more expensive competitors in non-blind comparisons, which would not be the case if confirmation bias ruled all and listening wasn’t valid evidence. Is it infallible? No, but it can still be useful evidence.
Confirmation bias is huge and proportional to how much money you just spent.
It is interesting that those that bring up confirmation bias believe it only applies to those that buy things that they don't find value in. Your confirmation bias is that science has everything completely understood. You are biased to never hear a difference, so you won't. There is a clear lack of understanding of what confirmation bias is and when it does or could apply.
The electricity came from a long way off, how is the last couple of feet going to matter? In any case, the first thing an electronic unit does is convert the AC to DC, so it doesn't matter how pure the AC signal is. But such arguments are pointless with these people, because you can't use logic and evidence to convince someone who never used logic and evidence to begin with.
I started a huge brouhaha with a post on this topic some time ago. If you're curious you can find it easily by searching for my prior posts.
I'm a consumer psychologist and a marketing professor who studies how people make subjective judgments about what sounds, tastes, looks, or feels better. The data on this are resoundingly clear. The only way to have confidence that a difference you are perceiving between X and Y—whether X and Y are power cords or anything else—is through a blind comparison where the person making the judgment does not know what they are listening to.
There are two very important things to know about this issue. First, the issue goes beyond confirmation bias (biasing one's judgments in favor of what one already believes to be true). Many people think that the issue is simply one of confirmation bias, so if they don't have a prior belief that power cords either do or do not make a difference in sound quality, they will approach the issue open-mindedly, and, therefore, blind listening is not needed. This makes total sense, but alas, is incorrect. If your brain knows what it is listening to, it will bias the results in all kinds of ways, even if you don't have a prior opinion and are honestly doing your best to make an accurate judgment.
Second, and this may be the most important and interesting point, if you know what you are listening to you genuinely will hear a difference. It's just that the difference is generated by your brain rather than the power cords. Here is what we used to think and after I’ll share what the research now shows.
WRONG outdated model:
(1) the stereo creates vibrations in the air.
(2) these vibrations reach your ear.
(3) your brain translates these vibrations into a sonic experience.
(4) your prior beliefs about power cords bias your judgment of this subjective experience and bias what you tell other people about it.
New, more CORRECT model:
(1) the stereo creates vibrations in the air,
(2) these vibrations reach your ear,
(3) your brain combines the information it receives from the ear with models about how the world works and motivations about how to be socially successful to actively construct your sonic experience. So, the sounds you hear in your head have already been influenced by your knowledge of what you are listening to.
(4) You judge whether power cords influence the sound quality and share that judgment with other people. You can do this in a biased way or in a more open-minded and honest way.
The important point is that knowing which power cord you are listening to will bias you at stage 3 and stage 4. If you're committed to an honest, open-minded approach, this will reduce the bias at stage 4, but the bias at stage 3 will still be there. The only way to remove the bias at stage 3 is to do a blind listening. And the bias at stage 3 will happen even if you don’t have a specific belief about power cords. Your brain will introduce biases at stage 3 for a whole host of other reasons that are too complicated to get into in this post.
At the time of my previous post on this issue I searched the Internet to find examples of blind listening tests using different power cords. I was only able to find a few examples, but all of them provided strong evidence that power cords make zero difference in what people hear if the people don't know what power cord they are listening to. This does not mean that all stereo sound the same or that spending money on stereo equipment is always a waste. There are many ways that you can spend money improving the sound of your stereo that hold up in blind listening tests. But from the evidence available last time I checked, spending money on power cords is not a good way to improve the sound quality of your system.
I run a DAC3 into Pass XA100.5s driving MBL 126s. I've swapped dozens of cables in and out. Except for low gauge power cords (thick conductors) helping the bass I've only heard very minor tone changes, the kind I get by swapping capacitors inside an amp. Not better or worse, just maybe a hair different. It gets boring.
I'm surprised at the amount of derision and hostility heaped on the OP here. I am on the side of "power cords make a difference." Why? Because I hear a difference. I disagree that having the neighbors over for a listen disqualifies them because they are not "audiophiles." if something sounds better, you shouldn't need to be an audiophile to discern the difference. You just need to listen more to the two components for a while so that you hear each one enough to compare what usually are small, <15% differences. Whether that difference is worth the money is a personal choice. However, I do call BS on the customer who allegedly thought that there was a 50% improvement in his system by adding power cables. I just can't believe that, even if he was comparing Dragons to stock power cables. But to each his own.
There have been so many Internet discussions about cables and interconnects.
I think it’s important one to acknowledge that we don’t know hear the same.
For example, or recent hearing test for me Shows That I am a couple decibels down and hearing in the mid range may be a bit more, depending on the frequency, but my ears are still very sensitive to super high frequencies
So my hearing is a response curve is basically the shape which means I don’t know what it’s all the mid range detail, but I love so much.
Anyway, power cables for me I have certainly made a difference, but not under all conditions, even in the same room with the same equipment.
I have found the cables make the biggest difference for sensitive digital sources, like a dac and a streamer. I have a proceed power amp that always sounds better when plugged into the wall.
If we try a cable and you think it makes a difference maybe you can hear a difference it’s your money and your time.
If you try a cable and you cannot hear a difference, then you have either reach the limits of your hearing or the cable is crap.
So I think there are a lot of factors that influence your sound even if it’s in the same room and the room is treated well and some components have better supplies sources and are less affected by power cables Example that is the external power supply for DACs.
anyway, have fun arguing. I’m gonna go get a beer.
When looking for advice about the necessity of having clean power running into my system I navigate towards those who have the knowledge and design expertise to explain the concept cogently.
One other thing for your evaluation…best listening experience is usually after 11pm when you have lowest noise on the lines (even with dedicated circuit it still appears to be the case) and the house is quiet. Spend some quality time listening and making notes. As I said a few days minimum. Let it all settle. Before you switch back. And no surge protector. Direct to wall.
in that system with properly set up and positioned speakers in relation to the listening chair (start with equilateral triangle toed in then make a slight adjustment by moving the chair further away by half a foot or so and correcting the toe in for the new chair location) you should begin to hear changes however subtle they may be. It will most likely be increased clarity, more focus and position of instruments in the soundstage will be more clearly defined.
Make sure you are listening to at least the redbook 16/44 and higher res files.
The few days of listening hard and alone without someone talking at the same time music is playing, should begin training your ear to be able to discern changes.
No guarantee that the final results will be any different than your initial assessment but at least you have given it all a fair shot at showing you what it’s capable of. I’m familiar with McIntosh amplifiers and they react to power cord changes and the AQ Dragon is one of the power cords that should take these components further towards more refined presentation. If at the end you hear no difference then it is what it is.
First of all, congratulations for being smarter (or at least less gullible) than the average audiophile, no matter how experienced they are.
Second of all, thanks for including others and for the testing method which is the only valid way to test things such as this. When people connect new items, whether cables, interconnects, amps, etc, they will have an expectation bias (though they may not recognize it or admit it) and especially if the item is expensive. If these new speaker wires cost $10,000 a foot, they must sound better, right?
Thank you for the post even though most readers won’t accept it.
Choked by the surge protection circuit in a cheap strip like that. Fine for routers or cable box. Not great for audio components in a system of that caliber. Something like a passive power conditioner that’s not restrictive would work great. Shunyata is one example. Listen to it for a few days then reintroduce stock cords. Don’t just listen to changes in treble, mids and bass. Pay attention to the entire presentation. Where the instruments are in the soundstage. Depth and width of stage, layering. Make notes on your favorite recordings how they sound. A quick A/B is not the right way to do it. Give yourself time to get used to it for a few days or even a week. Then go back.
Way ahead of you. I already moved them both to the wall and compared again. No change in sound but I'll continue tomorrow. But it's a power bar, the two units draw <2 amps, nothing else but this system is on the circuit, how is it being choked?
Dude you have your McIntosh components plugged into a surge protector?
It doesn’t matter how many amps they draw. That surge protector is your bottleneck. Take it out. You’re choking your system.
Plug the amp and pre at least for the duration of the evaluation directly into the wall using the dragons. Re-evaluate. Seriously surge protector?
Oh relax. I put an ammeter on the surge protector that the amp & pre are plugged into and while playing music at my typical level they were drawing under 2 amps.
The unit next to the Lumin is the Sbooster power supply as detailed in the OP.
Well hold on Mike. I think I am seeing either a power strip or a power conditioner or both. Let’s not rush to conclusions that the amp and preamp are getting good power for their property designed power supplies until the OP confirms. A bad power strip or a limiting power conditioner can cap your system performance at a certain level and no matter what you do that bottleneck will prevent any further improvements. It’s tough to see in the pictures what that stuff behind the rack is and what the unit on middle shelf to the left of Lumin is for.
Another reason you can't hear the difference is because you have well designed power supplies in your components, the argument that the better the system is the more you can hear the cables is backwards.
I agree! In my opinion, addressing the AC mains power coming in the home and the wiring in-wall is more important. All-wiring and grounding from the electrical pole to the audio equipment matters. 😎
One aspect that is highly significant, it also matters how the power is done internally to the component you're using. With a conventional unregulated linear PSU in say, a typical power amp for example you can generally hear effects of fuses, power cords readily IME. But we can make a linear PSU where you can't hear much of those upstream items at all. Just for example, if you filter and regulate downstream. It does matter (a lot) IME.
Another example, I have a super shunt attenuator buffered preamp design that employs 2 stages of very high performance linear regulation. One would likely be enough but hey, it has 2 because that's how I wanted it :D And the fact is you'll be very hard pressed to hear anything happening upstream (power cord, fuse). In theory and in real experience. You can't hear much of a DC flat line basically, no matter how much wishful thinking is also applied lol..
In my friend's super system he's done a lot of power chord research. He also has AQ Dragons (the full loom in in fact). As I was advising him, we basically couldn't hear any power cord effects using said preamp and a power amp design I brought.
So I'm just trying to say, IME not all systems are as sensitive as others to power cords and fuses. JME YMMV.
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