Am I hearing things?

This is a really informative and helpful thread. Thanks all concerned.

The reason they used aluminum wire and rationed copper in the last half of the 1960's was the Vietnam war. I used to own a house completely wired with aluminum biult in 1967.

On common neutrals the neutral only carries the difference, if line 1 carried 10 amps and line 2 carried 6 amps only 4 amps runs through neutral, if they both carried 20 amps 0 is on neutral ,  the hots are on opposte phases so they cancel each other if they are on the same phase well the house might burn down since 40 amps could then go through the neutral wire melting it. 

In the 60's they did the common neutral to save copper, some houses back then were wired with aluminum. Code now is the breakers have to be ganged on common neutrals  hot needs to be on seperate phases. the reasoning is both of those breakers need to be tripped before you work on either line. 

No its the sound room labeled. I have 2 dedicated lines with 2 outlets 3 inches apart. I hooked up the Bryston to the new line with the 10 ga wire and my power plant to the other one. sonically everything is great now but I will change it out to a 20 amp breaker. Thanks for everyones input. Memebers here look out for each other. 

I don't get the 25amp breaker on a simple branch to a single 20amp receptacle. Those are not common breakers and are mostly used for AC units and water heaters. You said they did some work on your AC are you sure you're not looking at the AC breaker? If not it should be switched to a 20amp breaker. 

Elizabeth  one other thing you might look for the two breakers that share the common neutral need to be ganged. 2  20amp breakers with a common neutral will trip like any other 20amp breaker they won't draw anywhere close to 40amps. The load wouldn't be balanced on the neutral which is what would trip the breaker actually breakers they are suppose to be ganged with the hot on seperate phases. 

Is there any other issues I should know for a COMMON NEUTRAL*

Hi Elizabeth,

The first thing I would wonder is if the neutral wiring that is common to the two circuits is rated to be able to conduct 40 amps, which it would have to if and when 20 amps is being drawn from each of the circuits.

Also, I can envision that sort of arrangement being conducive to ground loop issues in some systems, because the unequal currents in the hot and neutral conductors, and their differing distances from the safety ground conductors, would tend to increase hum and noise voltages that are electromagnetically induced in the safety grounds. (I’m assuming that there are safety ground conductors, and that they are physically close to either the hot or neutral conductors)

Jim (Jea48) is more knowledgeable about this kind of thing than I am, though, especially from a code standpoint. We’ll see what he has to say.

Best regards,
-- Al

Yes the 25 was right on the swtich. I overlooked it big time

I looked downstairs in the electrical panel and no and nowhere is there a 15, 20, 25, or 30.marked on the breakers. Is there a secret code electricians use?

The ampere rating should be on the ON/OFF breaker handle. Sometimes it’s printed on the face of the breaker. The ampere rating should be visible on the front of the breaker for the user to see. What manufacture electrical panel do you have?

Example.
20 amp breaker.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-QO120CP/100028706

15 amp breaker
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-15-Amp-Single-Pole-Circuit-Breaker-HOM115CP/100153952

20 amp breaker
https://www.ebay.com/p/GE-THQL-THQL1120-1-Pole-20-Amp-Circuit-Breaker/2254530853https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q120U/100044919


Did you find the breaker/space panel numbers for the 2 dedicated circuits for your audio system?

What to look for. In the majority cases the odd numbers are on the left side of the panel and the even numbers on the right side.

Example.
Single phase 120/240 Volt panel.
L = Line, Leg, Bus.


Left side ...........................................Right side

L1.. breaker/space #1) ........ breaker/space #2)

L2 .. breaker/space #3) ......... Breaker/space #4)

L1 .. #5) ............................................... #6)

L2 .. #7) ............................................... #8)

L1 .. #9) ............................................... #10)

L2 .. 11) ............................................... #12)

And so on down each side of the panel

jea48
. I looked downstairs in the electrical panel and no and nowhere is there a 15, 20, 25, or 30.marked on the breakers. Is there a secret code electricians use? I goggled it and no help. What would make a breaker trip with my audio hooked up. The only thing that tripped in my house was the outlet with the microwave and blender going at one time. I've had the 600 watt amp for 6 years with nothing tripped there so I should be ok. Right?

PS...somehow missed your statement that you ran the new dedicated line "alongside" a prior dedicated line...sorry...but:   if the wires are alongside each other, and power is being fed by both at the same time, guess what?  Their magnetic fields are interfering with each other thru their entire length.  Space them by 6 inches...it will absolutely help. 

So here is the potential issue, which is three fold:
1) While your prior line was not dedicated, per se, it may have been dedicated uninitentially. If almost nothing other than a few light bulbs were utilizing that line, then it was virtually a dedicated line to start with, aside from splices, which do have a minor effect of their own, especially once you multiply the in line quantity of splices. Yet, if your equipment was plugged into the first junction of the entire circuit (where the homerun cable splices in), the follow on splices would have no effect on the purity of signal to your equipment....only the draw of the minor lights plugged into those follow on receptacles would have an effect....which again, is miniscule if talking 50-200w without motors or compressors or heating coils involved. Therefore, in that scenario, there would be no, or almost no improvement in the new dedicated line.

Improvement with a new dedicated line would only come if one or more of the following were true of the prior, non-dedicated line:
(a) The prior line ran directly along other electrical lines, causing magnetic interference.
(b) The prior line ran in the wall directly behind items such as an a/c unit, refridgerator, or electric oven/microwave...hi magnetic field appliances
(c) a somewhat hi current draw item, or item with a coil (magnetic influence throughout the circuit), was running in that same cirucuit, ie, fan, hair dryers, electric appliances, televisions, etc.
(c) The prior circuit was very old....say about 20 yrs +, thus had oxidized splices and receptacle connections feeding the rest of the line (again … less impactful if the receptacle outlet your equipment used was the first in the line where the homerun was present)

If none of the above was true of your prior line, then the new dedicated line will not necessarily show any improvement.  Though, your use of 10 AWG will eventually have a benefit of its own...here-follows:

2) Yes, the wire needs to burn in...its a brand new line of #2 Copper, which isn’t even OFC (oxygen free copper). The level of impurities is high compared to OFC, and the number of molecular barrier points for the electrons to make their way through is, if I recall correctly, 100x greater than in standard 99.9% OFC (can’t remember exactly how much higher,,,but it is significant...wouldn’t mind someone fact checking the actual increase on that). So, burn in for an in-home Romex/NMB cable takes considerably longer than with any of todays audio cables, or audio grade power cords. Throw in that it is 10 AWG,,,,which you are highly underutilizing, and that’s a whole lot of electron aligning that has to be forced to occur before audio quality is restored. What your equipment is receiving is the extreme electron flow limitation of a new Romex cable which is an extreme size at 10 AWG.

Give it time ,,, it will happen ,,,, could be 400-600 hours of use.

3) On a final note, please please please switch that 30 amp breaker to a 20 amp. It will not impact your sound quality in a significant manner...the eventual benefit of the 10AWG wire (once burned in) will be greater than the minor limitation of the 20 amp breaker. So your choice of in wall wire will still be of benefit, and not a waste of your time and money.

Take a look at the total draw of your plugged in equipment ,,, if it is 20 amp or higher, eventually that receptacle will break down, and begin to fall apart internally as the plastics/pvc/etc harden to a brittle state. As those materials slowly break down, miniscule electrical arcing will begin to occur, eventually building to an audible hum (if you’re lucky). This would be quite detrimental too all of that expensive gear plugged into it, before you ever hear the hum.

Even if you are not at or near that 20 amp of draw, eventually, someone else will own that home and they will have no clue if they are overtaxing the receptacle because the breaker won’t trip, and that’s where the receptacle could actually reach a point of extreme heating. Receptacles are rated at 80% of the level they are considered to be 100% safe to. Thus that 20A receptacle is designed to be 100% safe up to 25 amps. At 25 amps it will get quite warm, quite quickly. Everything above that amperage will increase the heat build up exponentially and very quickly, and literally could make the receptacle melt, cause shorts, and catch fire. Honestly, I’m not being an over zealous safety freak … these are real scenarios that can and will occur if that receptacle is loaded to hi.

blueranger OP
257 posts 08-03-2018 5:32pm

I will get a polarity tester and I don’t kniw tbe particulars. But I do know when I saw the wire it was orange 10 ga and there was no ground wire in it. So how could he ground it otherwise? I’m just going to get another electrician verify everything and quote this post. Thanks Mike

Stop. Take a deep breath. Don’t jump to conclusions. Other than the breaker the electrician installed in the electrical panel, everything else of the installation may be fine.

#10-2 with ground NM-B cable (Romex is a Trade name of) has an outer orange sheath, jacket. It comes with a bare equipment grounding conductor. It doesn’t come without an equipment grounding conductor.

The electrician installed one wall cut-in box and installed one 20 amp duplex receptacle. Correct? Metal or plastic box? Do you know the make of the duplex outlet? Is it at least a spec grade outlet? The outlet could be the source of the sound you are hearing from your audio system.  What type of duplex cover did he install? A flexible non breakable nylon plate?

Go to the electrical panel. What breaker number on the panel schedule is the older dedicated circuit you already have? What is the breaker number of the new dedicated circuit? The number is also stamped on the panel front cover next to the breakers. The numbers will tell me if the electrician install the new dedicated circuit breaker on the same Line, Leg, as the old dedicated circuit breaker.

Pick up a circuit/polarity tester at Home Depot. $5.00
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/206212329?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%...
Post back what it indicates. Hopefully it will indicate CORRECT

Jim

There should be white/neutral , black/ hot, bare copper/ ground. The ground might not be connected to the receptacle if there are more receptacles  on the run he might have twisted them together and crammed them in the back of the box. He should have pigtailed to the receptacle. 

I will get a polarity tester and I don't kniw tbe particulars. But I do know when I saw the wire it was orange 10 ga and there was no ground wire in it. So how could he ground it otherwise? I'm just going to get another electrician verify everything and quote this post. Thanks Mike 

He probably put the 25 amp breaker on your AC unit which is not unusual that's about the only thing 25 breakers are used for AC units or water heaters. 

I called the electrician and he said it was a 25 amp breaker. He assured me I'm fine. Mike

#10 is used for 30amp breakers and the receptacles for those are 240 not your standard 120 and are made to accomodate #10 wire. Some components are 240 so in that case they would run 10/2 or 10/3. 

Thanks djones51 and almarg -- this is very helpful perspective and should inform those on Audiogon who are in the process of configuring their systems.

Craig most 20 amp breakers are run with 12/2 or 12/3  it's hard enough to wire a receptacle with 12 doing it with 10 is a real pain. My guess is unless you're standing there watching the electrician and you had him run 10 he pigtailed some 12 in the box to wire up the receptacle. 

To add some perspective to Jim’s (Jea48’s) good comments about voltage drop, if the wiring that was replaced is say 50 feet long and during dynamic peaks the current drawn by the system (and anything else that is connected to the corresponding outlets) is say 8 amps (corresponding to about 1000 watts; the aforementioned Bryston amp alone can draw considerably more than that at max power), the change from 12 gauge to 10 gauge will increase the voltage provided to the amp and any other components that are not powered by the regenerator by about 0.5 volts.

That doesn’t seem like a lot, but I suppose it might make some difference sonically. On the other hand, though, if the line voltage at the OP’s location is already particularly high, and perhaps above what is sonically optimal for the particular amp (for example, in terms of the resulting internal temperatures), I wonder if the increase might be in the wrong direction.

In any event, in addition to Jim’s suggestion about obtaining a polarity checker, it may be informative if the OP were to obtain a multimeter and measure the line voltage at various times of the day and evening.

Regards,
-- Al

Thanks jea48.

craigl59
248 posts                                                                         08-03-2018 10:36am

Since there are electricians seeing this thread would like to ask them if 12/2 Romax is OK for 20 amp circuits. Is there some reason why 10/2 seems to be preferred in many audiophile installations? Is it the concept of "Overwire and Underbreaker?"

Per NEC (National Electrical Code) #12 copper wire is the bare minimum wire size for a 20 amp branch circuit. NEC does not prohibit using a wire size larger than #12. Usually a larger wire size is used for VD (Voltage Drop) that may occur on the conductors of the branch circuit due to the connected load. The connected load does not need to be a continuous connected load. It could be caused by a fluctuating load.

The size of the breaker, overcurrent device, dictates the ampere rating of the branch circuit. The OP has a 30 amp breaker, therefore the circuit is 30 amps. Per NEC you can not install a 20 amp rated receptacle on a 30 amp branch circuit. Per code the breaker must be 20 amp.

Here is an old Link, but still holds true for when a breaker is supposed to trip if overloaded.
https://goodsonengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CircuitBreakerMyths_web.pdf

Since there are electricians seeing this thread would like to ask them if 12/2 Romax is OK for 20 amp circuits. Is there some reason why 10/2 seems to be preferred in many audiophile installations? Is it the concept of "Overwire and Underbreaker?"

You obviously don’t know a thing about AC. 

If you forced the wrong BRAND breaker into your box, you could be in for a hot time. You know, (unlikely) what I mean, right?

Some breaker brands will “fit” into a different brand of box. But the contact may not be good so you may get a lot of resistance and heat build up and this can cause an “electrical fire”. I don’t have the patience to explain this to you, but if you think you may have made this mistake you have made a dangerous error.

The 30 fuse in a 20 circuit is just plain dumb, but it will not, by itself, cause dhrillness .< that IS a period. There is an easy cure for your shrillness - wait two weeks.  You will be acclimated to the “new sound” then and you will probably put it down to “burn in” - unless your house “burns down” first.

Hiring an electrician is quite easy. Learning how to BE an electrician is much more difficult.

”Burn in” is an audiophile mental construct. “Burn down”, in your case, may turn out to be an audiophile physical “destruct”!

Good luck.

Actually you should swap out the 30A breaker for a 20A breaker and leave the outlet alone.

+1 @mickeyb 

Do not put a 30 Amp breaker on 20 amp wiring/outlet. This is life endangering, not to mention illegal. 

Of all possible tweaks, don't do this one. 

Agree with mickeyb

I had a licensed electrician install a 20 amp circuit for a 4bSST2  (thinking I might later run a pair of 7 monos.) It has the 20 amp circuit breaker. The remainder of the system runs via a 15 amp circuit. No problem

My home is 100% electric, and the major sources of use are the cooktop, water heater and dual  heat pumps/air handlers.

General contractor here. You can NOT use a 30 amp breaker with a 20amp rated outlet. It could over heat and cause a fire. 
Fix that ASAP and stick with a 20amp outlet and you should be good. You shouldn’t need more than 20 for audio. 

Am I hearing things?

Yes

Is it possible that this is a warm-up effect?

Electronics can perform better with warm-up. I find that my amps improve for about 16 hours, my preamp for about 4.

So, if you plug into one outlet and let everything warm up for ages, it will sound very good. When you power it down, change outlets, and power it back up, it won't sound good for some time, until it has warmed up for an equivalent period. 

That is, if your equipment is subject to the same limitations as mine. Could this be the source of your observation?

blueranger,

I have not seen very plausible looking arguments to establish that all those things need "burn in" and change sound.

But it is very well established that our perception alters readily.

On an anecdotal level: I often play around with the positioning of my speakers, distance, angling, height, tilt, just to test stuff out.

I notice that some times I’ll do something like raise and tilt the speakers a bit, and it may result (due to acoustics) in an alteration of the sound that I find a bit good, a bit bad. Say, a little more emphasis in the presence region, a bit less warmth down low.

But over time, I adapt. A week later, I may either find myself MORE cognizant of the things I don’t like, or LESS so. For instance, I may no longer perceive a lack of warmth, and now it sounds "right" to me. Nothing has changed physically about my system; my brain has adapted,  changed my perception.

In fact, it’s been a subject of discussion at various points on here and other forums that the way we perceive our systems can seem to change even daily. What was "wow" yesterday may seem "Meh" today.

Maybe you do have some issue on your AC line causing what you hear.But in terms of "break in" being the issue:


Consider the elasticity of our perception, against whether there is really good technical reasons to think your new AC line needs "break in."

Im running system 24/7 breaking in the refurbished  Marantz SA-10 and BP 17 demo unit. The SA-10 hasn't changed that much compared to when I first got the SA-8005. I will get tbe 14b3's cherry. I will break her in good!!!

I totally agree with cleeds.
The exception would be a 30 amp breaker with the correct size wire feeding a sub-panel and from the sub-panel use 20 amp breakers with the correct size wire.
I also agree with others that said to use the new dedicated line and outlet for some break-in time, I don't pretend to totally understand the concept but break-in time is important. When you aren't listening to the system run a fan on that new dedicated line and outlet.

I have a PS 1000 power regenerated and sometimes I have my 14bsst 600 watt amp run into it. It never seem to suffer from dynamics but what technical people have said here is that the punch and dynamics have to be compromised to a degree. The 1000 can only handle up to 7 amps and up to 10 soft.. The Bryston pulls more. I couldn't tell a difference so I thought my wiring was a choke point. Oh thanks for the responses everyone. My 14b3 has just left Bryston and I'm making a good home for it here.

It's not especially wise - and may be against local code - to put a 30A breaker on a line with a 20A outlet. Similarly, I wouldn't put a 20A breaker on a line with a 15A outlet.
If your lines run close to each other or in the same conduit, it is possible that one is affecting the other.

I put two 20a dedicated lines in the new house when we moved in last year. Took them a couple weeks to lose the shrillness and settle.

There are others here with real technical expertise in electrical systems, I can only respond anecdotally. When I moved to a new/old house, I installed an entire subsystem for the electrical, and even before the big isolation transformer arrived and was installed, the wiring was connected via a "J’ box (presumably a "junction" box). The system was largely the same, but the room was different. And, yes, the system sounded a little bright at first, but the power here (I’m now in Austin, very close to downtown, and not far from a lot of commercial stuff, though in a strictly residential neighborhood) was much cleaner, without any treatment, conditioning, etc. than what I was getting in NY (not in Manhattan but in a small village north of Manhattan).
Part of it may be the result of newer infrastructure, or who i'm sharing a transformer with- i know I'm not on the same transformer as the apartment buildings nearby. 
So, the power coming in is certainly going to have an effect, as will the amount of demand on the ’grid.’ It’s been upwards of 110F here and I can still play the system, but I know it would probably sound better, despite the isolation transformer, if the incoming power wasn’t in such great demand right now due to heat.
As to ’running next to,’ how close? I think there are best practices in terms of spacing the lines. I’m not going to address the use of a 30 amp breaker since you may have some need for that.