I am convinced that most of the problems people hear w/Sashas (or other Wilson speakers) is the setup. Proper positioning, fed by good sources, with reasonable electronics fed by clean power (most critical in my opinion) tightens up the 'bloated bass', and tames the 'sibilant highs'. The 'problem' is that people don't spend the time it takes to set up what is a very transparent transducer. My 2 cents worth. Tom |
From 2005-2007 I did visit many people with sets from 8000 dollar till 180000 dollar. I had about 6 times people with Wilson speakers. A speaker always will be a personal matter. It depends what you prefer. They all had one thing in common. They had acoustic problems with their Wilson loudspeakers. This is a property as well. This is more difficult to solve. In a normal house situation Wilson are not easy speakers to get a good sound and balance. Only 2 times in my life I heard a good balanced demo with Wilson loudspeakers. They are not easy. People who choose Wilson get these difficulties as an extra. You have to deal with it. This cost you time and also more money to get it right. I don't say it is not possible to get it right. It will cost you more time and money. |
Maybe but choosing is often about fooling I am affraid. Look for instance at the prices and looks of cables. In this market people are constantly busy with upgrading which contributes mostly nothing to the enjoyment of listening to music. Wilson speakers sound spectacular in the beginning with a lot of detail ( by lifting the treble) and deep bass ( more then real) and I call this a very colored, unpleasent sound which makes uou tired at the end and seeking for a new wilson speaker. |
Every single brand have their own properties. They choose for it because they think this is the best way to create the most realistic sound.I have my doubts as well. But I think Wilson is a very smart person, also from a commercial point of view. People have the freedom to choose. The question is do people know and understand how to choose? |
just cannot understand why this brand is so popular, imo the sound is absolutely not natural. bass and trebble are pronounced to much and the midrange sounds hollow. this was my experience with the sophia, alexis and sasha. listening for a longer was impossible for me. the recording must be reproduced how it was recorded but not by the taste of "wilson people". the continue proces of launching new models and their webshop makes it all clear; it is all about marketing and selling.( like 80% of the brands) |
Regarding the Zellaton comment above, I bought them over the Sasha as the Zellaton speakers have the beauty but the balls as well. The mid-bass hump and tonal problems of Wilson speakers still persist to this day. I listen mostly to rock and the Sasha's were so bloated and uncontrolled that I felt embarrassed for the salesperson. Zellaton has natural bass, the kind you hear in live performances and the timing is correct. I also question a speaker that requires so much to sound good in re setup, recordings, equipment etcÂ…., along with a new model so often... |
03-06-14: BvdimanI heard the new Sasha 2 at a high end mfrs' open house exactly a week before you posted this. The new Sasha 2's were powered by a top line stack of Audio Research tube components. I've heard all the Wilson floorstanders, and multiple versions of some. I've heard the Alexandria X-2 and the XLF, the current Maxx, the Alexia (last year's featured Wilson at this open house), various Watt/Puppies, Sasha W/P, Sophia 2 and 3, and now the Sasha 2. I consider the Sasha 2 to be a significant upgrade (at least) over any previous Watt/Puppy or the first Sasha. I came away feeling much as I had after hearing the $20K more expensive Alexia. Maybe in a side-by-side comparison, the differences might be more obvious, but my emotional response to the music coming from the Sasha 2 was very much like what I'd felt a year earlier with the Alexia, which in turn was knocking on Maxx's door. If you're looking for speakers in the $25-30K range, I highly recommend hearing the Sasha 2s. Also, I have to wonder how many of the Wilson critics and detractors have heard the latest Wilsons driven by tube electronics by ARC or VTL through Transparent Cable? The store that hosts this open house really knows how to set up Wilsons. Plus, Peter McGrath was there as well. They were sourcing the music from LPs on the AMG 12 turntable. |
Hahahahahahaha......guys audio Always will be a personal matter. If we would have all the same taste, the need for different speakers would not be there. And no english is not my first language. When you have the freedom to hear so many different stuff you can compare a lot more than any customer ever could do. Audio is a very addictive hobby, Always looking for better.... |
I did lend the Sasha 2 for 2 months a few years ago. I didn't like Classical music with it. I also owned the Monitor Audio Pl-300 and I also didn't like classical music with this one either. I owned the B&W 800S before the Pl-300 and I loved it for classical music. A friend of mine had a small concert room for about 65 people with a Steinway wing. When the sound is becoming a lot different it does not touch me emotionally. Maybe it is a personal opinion, ( everyone can think differently) this is how I feel it. I am addicted to music since I was 6. I started in audio in 98. In all these years I have done thousends of tests. Because it is the thing I love in audio. Beside this you Always look for the absolute sound. And for me Wilson is not the one who can give me this feeling. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.It is just a personal opinion. |
Bo, you're probably a nice guy, but do have any idea of what a freakin' jackass you sound like? No offense, but for someone who purports to have all the answers, I have not read a single thing from you that is remotely useful. You certainly have a right to your preferences, but you preach them in these absolute terms that makes you sound insane. Please take this as constructive criticism from the Audiogon Community. |
As a long term advocate of Wilson speakers, it all come to your music preference, to be frank, Wilson is not good at reproducing Classical, String, chamber music, no matter what amp you have connected, the sound is harsh, Hi tone and low tone was overwhelmed, just don't sounds right for such kind of music, but when it comes to play the music like all kind of jazz including fusion jazz, or even pop and rock music, the realism, the speed, transient, impact, dynamic contract and micro / marco dynamic is what it stand out among others speaker, everytime when Im thinking changing the speaker to others brand but eventually brought with newer Wilson speake when Every speaker has their own sound, it happens when I listen to the expensive Zellaton speaker which top notch for strings, Symphony, chamber music but worst in playing my kind of music, there's no perfect speaker in reality. |
I only think your speakers can go to a higher level in sound by an amp like Pass labs. Densen is a fine amp, but not in the same league as Pass Labs. Everything for his money. Wilson is not an easy speaker to drive and use in a normal living situation. That is main thing I want to tell. And that is important information for people who think about buying them. You always need equipment who have all the talents/properties your speaker own's. For Wilson to come to this level costs more money than speakers which are less difficult to use and place in a normal home situation. |
Bo1972, Your argument is that Wilson is some how unique, requiring acoustic treatment, expensive amplifiers, and proper placement to sound best...While at the same time you said,"I do not think Densen is a great match with Monitor Audio. Because it is not able to let you hear the real sound of instruments Pass Labs can give." Your own words support my argument. "Most" highend speakers excel when properly set-up, the room has the right acoustic treatment, and the right electronics(sometimes expensive). I'm currently driving my Sasha's with according to you, an inferior amp, but they still sound good to me. Their in a room without acoustic treatment and still sound good to me. There is no doubt in my mind that they will sound better with acoustic treatment and the right amplifier, but that can be said about all speakers and that's my only point. |
Ricred1, I agree with your last point about leveraging off dealer expertise. However, I would caution that I have found some dealers to be somewhat limited in their ability to advise on set-up, including equipment compatibility. Of course, I'm sure there are many dealers who really know what they're talking about. A case in point is John Rutan of Audio Connection in Verona, N.J. (I think he knows more about Vandy speakers than Richard Vandersteen . . . . just kidding Mr. V). I'm also happy to read that Wilson is user friendly and fills in the blanks. [Still taking late model Wilson speakers off of peoples hands at no cost to them. LOL ;.')] My point is that if a customer is planning on dropping big bucks on gear, he or she needs to be a smart consumer. And as I said above, that is not always an easy task. I think checking A'gon Forum is a good place to start, followed up by a call(s) to the factory(ies) as needed. Caveat emptor. Btw, that's not to say I haven't made mistakes. Fortunately I have been able to recycle equipment that isn't working out with minimal net cost (of the buy/sell). Cheers. |
So Ricred you say; Wilson is easy to adapt in a normal house situation? Wilson is easy to drive by most of the amps? Wilson does not need a lot of acoustic treatment to get a very good sound? Wilson speakers do need need expensive amp's to come to a high level? Wilson is easy to get an involving and musical sound? |
Bo1972, "Wilson does not say; hey you need a big room and acousticly adapt it to get a good sound", no manufacture does, that's what the dealer is for. Wilson dealers and other dealers are there to advise on set-up, and what speaker works best for the given situation(room size, associated equipment, and how much money the customer wants to spend). That being said, I've called Wilson many times and they provided advise on electronics and placement of speakers. |
Bifwynne - you are 3 weeks too late. I have already 'donated' my Sashas to a friend :) Looking for a new speakers right now - Wilson Alexia is one of the three speakers I'm considering (the other two are Magico and Rockport). My room was designed by a local acoustician. I'm not US based, so the name will not tell you much. Glad you like it though ! |
I do consulting, no shop. Totally different approach. That is why I want to make professional review's in full HD with professional camera's which give more and better info about audio products. Because of the less clear information there is many customers make faults which limited them in enjoying there personal music to the max. Wilson does not say; hey you need a big room and acousticly adapt it to get a good sound. And the same about how to drive it. And how to get an involving and music sound. There need to come more open and clear information about audio. This will be in everyone's favour. Makes it more simple!! |
Elberoth, This is my first time looking at your system. If it sounds half as good as it looks . . . , then WOOOWWW! Gorgeous job. Two questions. Dunno if you're married. If so, how do you keep your wife out?? My wife, bless her soul, invades my finished basement man-cave when the house starts shaking and then yells at me. She threatens to throw a bucket water on my gear. One major big-time coping issue!! Other Q is about the room acoustic response graph that you presented in your system description. How did you tune your room so well and what outfit did the acoustic study. Your right -- it's quite remarkable. I live in the Philly area. There might be only 2 or 3 retail outlets that could (maybe??) replicate what you did, but only after dropping major big bucks. Enjoy!! P.S. I been following that crazy post about Wilson Sashas. Let me know if you want me to take those rotten, ugly, color matched Sashas off your hands. No cost to you of course. ;>) |
I have the freedom to speak. I do not hate any brand. Wenn you would use these words you would not understand life. The conclusion in my personal opinion is that Wilson are not speakers eay to use in a normal living situation. And you need the right stuff to drive it and make it involving and musical. Do not make it sound more negative then it is. People have the right and freedom to speak and have there own opinion. Learn to read more precise!! |
As they say - the company success can be measured by the number of haters ;) On a serious note - for those looking for a relatively cheap amp that works great with Sasha, I strongly recommend the $3990 Cary SA-200. It is quite powerful (2x200W/2x350W) has no problems driving Sasha, is very smooth and a bit on the warm side. A lovely match, I have used this amp for several months and preferred it to many more expensive designs. Bo - as you identified yourself as a dealer, selling competing products, you should refrain yourself from further posting in this thread. |
Ricred1, happy to oblige and end your suffering. It's the Mother Terresa part of me. I've had 2 CDPs before the ARC Ref CD-8. My first was a Rega, maybe the Apollo. Then I snatched up an ARC CD-7, which I liked a lot, but I always thought a bit dark. I had an opportunity to grab a CD-8 for a very good price a while back and I bought it. Definitely a great CDP. It's tonally balanced and does a very nice job overall. I'll dispense with the pedantic adjectives because I'm sure there are tons of other top quality CDPs that may have a different presentation, but are equally good if not better. I haven't looked back since. More importantly, I am not interested in moving anywhere else. At best, I am NOT convinced it wouldn't be a lateral move. [Sorry for the double negatives.] Of course, it's built like a tank. If you look at the ARCDB web site, you'll notice the innards of the CD-7 and CD-8 are almost identical. Probably the main change is the DAC. The CD-8 uses a better DAC, a Burr-Brown as I recall. For the $$$, a very good way to go .... if it matches to your line-stage. If any doubts, call Kal at ARC. Cheers. P.S. When can I expect to receive those rotten Wilsons??? LOL ;>) |
Bifwynne, I'm putting them in their crates now! To deviate from this thread for a second...I'm thinking about the Audio Research Ref CD8 as my next move...did you compare it to anything else prior to purchase? What source did you own prior to the Ref CD8 and could you describe the changes or your overall impressions of the tonality of the Ref CD8. Thanks |
You have to read more precise. I am just a person who loves audio. There are always many ways what can lead to the absolute sound. At the end it will always be a personal taste. It is about music, this is the essential part of it all. Music can touch your hart.....invloving and musical sound is more important than more resolution and 3d stage. But the last parts can lead to a more stunning and convincing sound. |
This is not about bashing Wilson Audio. Also not to be 100% correct. This is about good quality in sound for every person here at Audiogon. The people who are happy with there Wilson speakers is always good. The most important thing I learned in the 15 year I am in this business. Is how personal sound is. For me it is important that people get good and honest advice. I am aware that words can be read different ways. We are all different. I love to talk about audio. Always interested in how other people think. Like Ricred1 will audition the Pl-200. That are the people I like. There is enough room for every person to have his personal opinion. In the last few months I had a lot of fun here at Audiogon. |
Folks, Bo... is 100% correct. As a fellow member of the A'gon community, it pains me greatly that any of you would be suffering with those Wilson speakers, any model. So, I will take them off your hands at no cost to you of course. Send me a note to advise on shipping costs and I will reimburse you. P.S. I'm only interested in late model Wilsons. |
Ricred1, agreed, guys like this are so wrapped up in being a guru and touting their superior hearing and evaluation skills that this becomes their main mission, and what they say loses impact and credibility. Usually you hear about soundstage, exact statements about bass, location of sounds, on and on. Usually you don't hear much about the beauty of music, sound that makes you stimulated yet relaxed at the same time, music that is achingly beautiful. That's what real detail is about, bringing musical sounds to the forefront while REDUCING harshness. And excuses about being so accurate that they hurt are as old as the hills, and are false. Low distortion brings more musical detail AND more ease of listening. |
A Pl-200 is a lot easier to drive, but you still need an amp which can give a 3D image. Without it you get an average sound. Most shope in the Netherlands use 2 dimensional amps to drive Monitor Audio Speakers. This means they do not understand the difference between 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional sound. Like they do not know which amps or even speakers have the ability to give a deep and 3-dimensional image. We are talking about quality in sound. Knowledge in sound and music. Music is all about emotion. You want to be touched by the music you love. This you get wenn you have a 3-dimensional intimate sound. Juat like in real wenn it can give you a meltdowns at the moment you did not expect it. The absolute sound is all about emotion and quality! |
I sold the more expensive Rel subwoofers in the past like the Stadium. I never liked it, because it was not fast enough or not one with the speakers. There were many numbers wenn it was not synchron with the speakers you used. To be honest I never thought a subwoofer could become one with the frontspeakers. Until I listened to the PLW-15 with Audessey XT32. I had to admit that things were changed. Everything is possible in life. Ofcourse I am not a fraud, I am who I am. It is only a personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. Wenn Wilson would like to make a speaker what is more easy to drive and use in a normal livind room he can make it. What is the reason to choose for a speaker what is difficult to drive and use? Wenn you would asked me 3 years ago If I would ever use a subwoofer in a stereo setting I would have said you are crazy. I was only interested in big speakers without a subwoofer. It only changed by the new experience with the PLW-15 with Audyssey. I was even very negative about roomcorrection. I sold Tact in the past. I did not like there roomcorrection system at all. Sometimes things change in life, also for me. New information can lead to other perspectives. I like to make things honest and clear. I will invite NVP to come to listen to my system. Wenn he reads this he can send me an email to: toughest57@hotmail.com |
Bo1972, you go on and on about how Wilson's need so much to get them to sound good and then you say, "To get everything out of the Pl-200 you need an amp which can give an extreme wide and deep stage", I get a wide and deep stage with the Densen and instruments sound real. I'm sure if I had the Pass Labs it would sound even better. You say, "I need the PLW-15 to strat from 16hz", I don't like subs. No my Sasha's don't go to 16hz, but the type of music I listen to doesn't require them to. You continue by saying, "You also need Audyssey pro and my way of measering to get the full stealth low freq". You remind me of why I give very little credence to individuals on the internet. Like I said, I will go listen to the P1-200s with my equipment and report my thoughts. |
There are more speakers which are able to give a deep and wide stage. But.......Monitor Audio Platinum is able to let you hear a 3d extreme sharp individual focus of all parts of the recording. This is the key to the stunning touchable sound I had at the show. I am aware of all the properties/talents of speakers, amps, sources and cables etc. My goal is to use all the properties they have. This only will lead you to the 'Absolute 'Sound. |
the extra information starting from 16hz-35hz by using the PLW-15 is crucial. It is not only the extra information. Beause I use the PLW15 from 16 hz till 120hz. The integration goes to a touchable level and instruments keep the same proportion as without a subwoofer. Voices and instruments become a lot better in sound as well. Without Audyssey Pro and my way of measering it is not possible to get a full stealth integration. This is the key factor to succes. You even can use it in small rooms without acoustic problems. Normally you would get a lot of acoustic problems wenn music starts at 16 hz. |
To get everything out of the Pl-200 you need an amp which can give an extreme wide and deep stage. Pass labs is one of the best in this area. Second you need the PLW-15 to strat from 16hz. This is crucial to come to the stunning sound. You need to know all the properties it has to get to this sound. Even Monitor Audio itself is not able to get this level. We had this discussion during the show. Most shows with Monitor Audio use amp's which are not able to get this 3-dimensional sound. They never heard there speakers this good. This means I always can go further then other people can. You also need Audyssey pro and my way of measering to get the full stealth low freq. I will keep this for myself. Even this I will not share with the people of Audyssey. What you can get out of a speaker depends about your knowledge in music and in properties of the equipment you use. For me it is that clear! |
