Beginner looking for guidance into tube sound.

I would also like to recommend tubes4hifi, Bob Latino’s amps. I built the St-120 and had a blast doing it. It sounds terrific too! Bob was always quick to answer questions via email. I also learned a lot about tube amps while doing it. It’s been about three years ago and I use it everyday without any problems. It’s also filled with quality American parts. If you do order one be sure to get the Russian capacitor upgrade .

Hi johnfritter 

IF, a big IF you don't need a lot of power and have efficient speakers, a used Music Reference RM-10 MKII is a great, great amp with modern tube sound, easily maintained & repaired with an inexpensive tube complement.  With a subwoofer or two, one can roll off the bass frequencies to a pair of less efficient monitors, allowing 35W per channel to serve say above 80hZ without draining the amp.  It's a truly reliable deep dive into the high end without a lot of cost.  Good luck and More Peace, Pin

I would think the more tubes the more tube sound one could expect.

When you’re speaking about the number of tubes for each piece of gear, not necessarily. In fact, I purposely searched for the least number of tubes per gear (CD player=1; preamp=3; power amp=4 per mono-block) and am tremendously satisfied. So much of the sound depends on the circuits, all of their parts, what type of tubes, and how the tubes are used.

Don't rule out a DIY kit. You can choose the best components: film and foil capacitors in the signal path, superior polypropylene power supply filter capacitors, and the simplicity of tube design which if it needs repair, which it probably will not if you use parts rated several time the current or wattage they will carry, is easy to repair. You don't have to take it to a shop and that will make it cheaper than solid state to repair.

Tubes will not cary a guarantee of success in your system.   The sound of tubes and s/s are merging so there is not really a preference of one over the other.  I would advise saving for a couple of years to get the equipment you really want after listening to many components over time.

I own the Muzishare X7. It's the best value that I have owned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVLQ9Lhl3xk

I was told that it's built in the same factory as Line Magnetic which I also used to own. 

It sometimes comes up in the used market for about $1,000. The prices for new ones are up recently from around $1,200 to $1,500.

Good luck!

Icon Audio BA3 tube buffer. Use it between your CD player and your amp. It’s excellent. Sorted!

I agree that, with your speaker’s sensitivity, a tube preamp is the way to go. A Schiit Freya+ is huge bang for the buck, in your price range. I have never heard Zu’s or Tektons, but it seems to me, from what I have read, that many end up driving them with solid state amps. Klipsch Heresys (99 dB), which you could get used for around 1K, and tube amps are wonderful. Pair them with a SET/SEP tube amp of at least 8 wpc and you will get a delicious taste of what tubes can do. With these amps however, per the advice of atmasphere, you don’t want to turn the volume setting above 25% (2 wpc in the case of an 8 wpc amp) as you will be hearing a lot of distortion, poor harmonics. 2 watts per channel is plenty for the Heresy’s. 

Heck, you might be able to snag a pair of Heresys and a used Schiit Freya for $1500. 

Used Heresys 

I know I'm a little late here and you might not see this, but I have some experience that might help. I was in the same position years ago and I used a Peachtree iNova as a preamp into a 1970s era Dynaco ST-70 tube amp I found for under $1,000 at a vintage shop near me in Syracuse, NY area. Definitely had the "classic" tube sound. I then moved into a bigger house and needed more power so traded in the ST-70 for a pair of Dynaco mono blocks, again under $1,000 full price. Again sounded great. Then came I to some cash, sold what I had and went with the Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP printer integrated. Very different sound! I learned that the sound of tube amps has changed from the classic days to the present. Sounded more solid state at first. But after it broke in and my ears adjusted from what I was used to with the Dynaco it is now excellent. Test if the system now is Tekton Lore speakers, Lumin D2 streamer, Rega Planar 3 table, Muse Erato CD player.

Don’t listen to anyone who says it can’t be done. They are just being snobs and are possibly compensating for lacking equipment elsewhere. 
A Dyna 70 can be had for $250 to $1,400, depending on condition. 
Here is one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynaco-ST-70-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-Fresh-Rebuild-/224475589237?_trksid=p234...

Any vintage equipment like the Dyna stuff should have their power supplies rebuilt. The original filter caps in most of the tube stuff is all bad now- and if you run equipment like that without servicing it out you run the risk of destroying the power transformer.

A lot of that 'classic' sound is actually bad filter caps and other aging parts.

Atmasphere,

Obviously. Please: I provided a link to a rebuilt one. 

You make wonderful amps but clearly this person is starting out and can’t afford them, not my Julius Futterman OTL3s. 

I began by building my own Dyna 70 when I was 14 years old and it kept me quite happy from 1968 through 1980, when I moved up to the Dyna MK3s. Those were not particularly stable, I got the Futtermans in 1985, they were modified from pentode to triode in 2015 and I am still using them.


Question: do you consider the NYAL Futterman OTL3 “classic” even if it’s been completely rebuilt with Jensen audio grade foil caps?

I believe you can connect your Nova300 to a tube buffer such as the ifi tube2

https://ifi-audio.com/products/micro-itube2/

You make wonderful amps but clearly this person is starting out and can’t afford them, not my Julius Futterman OTL3s.

I began by building my own Dyna 70 when I was 14 years old and it kept me quite happy from 1968 through 1980, when I moved up to the Dyna MK3s. Those were not particularly stable, I got the Futtermans in 1985, they were modified from pentode to triode in 2015 and I am still using them.


Question: do you consider the NYAL Futterman OTL3 “classic” even if it’s been completely rebuilt with Jensen audio grade foil caps?

@unreceivedogma I'm a fan of the ST-70 and have rebuilt many of them. I was only offering the advice since the ST70 is a good entry point into high end audio if its refurbished.


I regard the Futterman amps as classics but not the NYAL stuff.

Atmasphere,

Well, my cell phone finally is not correcting atmasphere.

NYAL is based on the same design (that I have listened to and am familiar with), and many knew and worked with Mr Futterman. There is a direct lineage.

Yes, it’s been stated that the NYALs were unstable. This is a controversial point as you must know. My experience has been that if you attach them to the wrong load, you are begging for trouble. I learned this the hard way, when I tried to drive a pair of Warfdales. It was not a pretty sight.

My pair have been cared for, first by Da-Hong Seetoo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da-Hong_Seetoo, then by George Kaye (Moscode, and a NYAL alumni), and then by Jon Specter (also a NYAL alumni, a highly regarded blues guitarist session man and cousin of Al Kooper).

Jon took the amps and rebuilt them from the ground up with audiophile parts and converted them to triode. There are only two other pairs like these.

I’m certain that my amps hold their own to anything out there. They are breathtakingly transparent.

And Jon corrected for the weaknesses in the design of these types of amps: there is now a much better bottom. I haven’t heard your amps, I know they enjoy a terrific reputation, but my copy of Canto General sounds weak on the bottom, and so I wonder if your design suffers similarly. Granted, I’m driving Altecs, known for brightness at 2K and rolling off below 100 or so.

https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

but my copy of Canto General sounds weak on the bottom

Heck, that recording can shake walls! The bass drum used was the largest in the state.

+1 @millercarbon all comments.

Been away from technology for a few days, getting caught up.
Thanks to everyone for all the input its all been valuable.
 
My conclusion seems to be that I would probably be best served buying a good preamp. That will eliminate any concerns of having the power to drive my inefficient speakers. The Aric Unlimited ii that was listed when I started this discussion got my interest up. I really like what he offers and I really like the thought of helping the small guy. As to some of the other options listed in the classifieds. A lot of them have the tubes inside the chassis. Well I have to admit I am "that guy" I want to see those beautiful glowing tubes. It HAS to make it sound better!! If anyone has other suggestions of products like the Unlimited ii or even his next step up the Transcend 6sn7 line stage don't be shy. 

I also really like those VTA "ST" kits. I am going to have to get one (probably the st120) of those for a winter project this fall!

Thanks again to everyone for the input!
J.F.

At your budget I was one to recommend the Aric Unlimited. I own his special which I believe now has been upgraded to the Transcend. Both 6SN7 tube types. I know one AGer who posted on the Unlimited which he had Aric design for 6SN7 output tubes. Strongly advise you to talk to Aric regarding and advantages of the different options as applied to your system and budget.  

Atmasphere

I have recordings with bass drums that don’t just shake walls, but knock things off the bookshelves. 

This sadly is not one of them. 

It’s disappointing because I love the composition, I have three recordings of it, and none are really satisfactory.

Quicksilver Integrated. 

I would consider a Jolida 1501BRC, it is an integrated and has 12AX7 input stage. They are pretty damn reliable and sound good. You should be able to find one used for around $600ish. Read some reviews but only get the BRC version its the best one. Good luck!

If it is so important to add some "tube sound" then yes a preamp is more in your budget. In the longer run however I would never do it, not on your budget, because separates are so much more costly for what you get. My budget for example is a lot more and even at my level I still do not see the advantage of separates. 

I just went through this myself and went with the Willsenton r8. It’s around $1300 and will 100% give you the full tube experience.

Don’t listen to that crap about needing to spend 2k+ minimum or even that tubes are expensive or difficult to maintain. The Muzishare and Willsenton are excellent amps and easy to live with. I takes about 3-5 minutes to bias my amp and is a complete non-issue unless you tube roll the power tubes. This would be very unusual (tube rolling is predominately for pre-amp tubes which don’t require a bias adjustment). And even if I was to roll power tubes, its kinda fun to bias, makes it seem like more of a hobby.

Power tubes last around 2500 hours or so and there are plenty of new production EL34 and KT88’s that sound excellent for around 25-50 per tube. The new issue stuff is also getting better and better. I listen to music about 10hrs a week at most so even w KT88’s at $50 per that’s $200 every 5 years.

Pre-amp tubes last twice as long and are less expensive unless you want some rare NOS tubes. If you are on a budget though, you can get NOS Russian Federation 6sn7 & 6sl7’s from the 80’s for about $5-10 a tube that actually sound great. That’s also what Willsenton ships with the R8. I have yet to figure out who makes their stock power tubes, mine had no markings.

If you would prefer keeping the Nova 300 in the system, then go with the Schiit Freya+ (without tubes $850, and get those Russian 6sn7’s as a starter set) or a used Freya (about $650). This is what I plan to do. I still have a SimAudio W3 that I own, and I’m going to try a tube pre to see how much of the "tube sound" I can get from the pre-section. I plan on keeping the R8 no matter what. Hopefully I can get some of the lifelike sparkle and 3D holographic thing tubes provide that transistors alone seem to miss.

I recently bought a Cronus Magnum that was within your budget. Sounds wonderful and drives Maggies with ease. The only downside is that it's a space heater.

Hey,
I haven’t read through the entire thread but if it hasn’t already been said you really need to listen to a tube  based system before you make any choices. With respect to others I think that you can find good tube equipment in your price range. I especially like the idea of building your own equipment. Sadly the audiophile hobby is IMHO overloaded with hyperbole. I’m not trying to rake the forum or to suggest tubes are better than solid state. I’m saying system synergy is key to musical bliss. Finding a system that creates that for you is challenging and that is where a lot of money is spent usually with good intentions but the end result is are you satisfied with what you are hearing? Chasing that down by reading reviews is impossible. Before you spend any money find a way to listen to several types of gear. That’s a difficult task to be sure but is the only way to make a choice that not only fits your budget but achieves the sound you crave. Keep in mind too when and where you listen really affects what you hear. Bottom line, listen to a tube based preamp and monoblocks with perhaps an analogue or digital front end an entire system. Something that gets your attention, something that is clearly better to you. Something that turns your head and sits you down, where you forget about the gear and just enjoy the music in a way that brings all details to life. It can be a very enjoyable endeavor and quite costly. But I believe it can also be done on a budget if your goals are reasonable. Go out and find some gear to listen to, ask a bunch of questions no matter how smart or embarrassing they may seem, then decide. Best of luck

I use a Herron Audio tube preamp going into my MSB S-200 SS power amp, and it has a tube sound that I totally love. 

For $1600 you could get a brand new Cayin A-50T MKII Integrated Tube Amplifier. Highly regarded. Very well made. I believe there is a Stereophile review that had it paired with full range monitor audio speakers.

Used Rogue Cronus integrated amp. Or Cronus Magnum. Buy something you can resell at minimal or no loss. If you like the Cronus you can sell your peachtree and get a used DAC to connect your node 2i and cd player and take the performance up another notch. If you don like the cronus, sell it and try something else. Buying brand new will cost you more and get you less and the resell will put you at a loss. 

Atmasphere

I have recordings with bass drums that don’t just shake walls, but knock things off the bookshelves.

This sadly is not one of them.

I don't thing any recording of Canto would. The score does not have any section where the bass drum is a triple forte (when I made that recording the assistant conductor was sitting right beside me so I got a briefing on the entire thing). The drum is used in quieter passages- that is when you know if your system is capable of the nuance of being able to play really deep bass at low levels and get it right. 

Johnfritter - did you get a tube pre?  Update please

I apologize. Yes an update is due.
On May 26th I believe. I contacted Aric at Aric Audio with questions about the used Unlimited listed here. After talking with him I decided that would be a great place to start. The unit sold by the time I got back to the seller. A week or so goes by and I get an email from Aric. He had taken one of his unlimited II's in on trade and made me an offer. This started a long chain of emails as I had lots of questions. He was right there with answers to every one of them, silly or not! I cant say enough about His customer service, absolutely outstanding. There was no doubt in my mind I am buying from this guy. I just had to decide what it was going to be. By the time I was all done I had settled on his Transcend 6SN7 Line Stage. Per my request  and his guidance (he never once pushed an upgrade or tried to upsell me) we chose to upgrade output caps to Miflex copper foil paper in oil. A resistor based output gain to replace the potentiometer. as well as a much much larger transformer and steel cover.
After two weeks and a week and a half of Fedex blunders July 9th it finally showed up! Its loaded with a NOS RCA 5U4G rectifier, a pair of NOS RCA OD3 regulator's and a pair of NOS Sylvania VT231's.
What adding this unit did was just short of amazing. It actually gave definition to a lot of the terms I see used so often that I thought  understood. I now hear so much more of what I was hearing that if I take it out everything sounds "flat" for the best way to put it. Everything sounds so rich and full yet very separated as far as instruments and vocals. I can actually hear (or think I do) the drumsticks strike the skins and the tick of them contacting the cymbal's. I swear you can tell how thick of a pick is being used on a guitar. I know it may sound a little overboard but it honestly is that good to me. There is no getting tired of it either. I've listened to it for a minimum of 3-4 hours a night (weeknights) and much longer on the weekends since I set it up July 9th. 
Well I had better get back to work for the day so I can get home and enjoy.

Thanks to everyone for all the input.
J.F.

Ha, well done, for a beginner you stepped right up to some very fine gear and well selected NOS tubes!  Enjoy, and welcome to the tube world. Personally I was expecting more of a romantic, warm, mid-range type of sound and was shocked by the level of fine detail and holographic presentation you get from tubes, it wasn't at all what I was expecting. Even friends family members easily noticed the difference.   

Congrats on your purchase. You got me thinking about talking to Aric about upgrading my Special (precursor to the Transcend). Mine is about 3 1/2 years old. Thinking about the resistor gain approach.

Mesch. 
Obviously if you are considering upgrades you like it. I’d like to hear your 3-1/2 year in opinion!
I will be looking to him in the future when I am ready for an amplifier for sure! 
J.F.

I purchased my Special from Aric via AG. It was 2 years old at that time. Aric took it to shows and thereafter had it at a dealer ship where it was never sold, thus his sale. I have been in contact with Aric since. Great guy to share thoughts with. Currently considering his Transcend amplifier. 

I was looking for a 6SN7 based pre having point to point wiring. His had what I wanted, and I thought the adjustable output gain would be nice as I have a digital based system. Was thinking with digital output levels I would only need ~10dB gain from a preamp. Thus far I have been proven right. It mated well with my BEL 1001 MK5 and now with my PASS XA25. 

I had a Decware CSP3.  It was a lot of fun tube rolling the input, output and rectifier tubes.  It has potentiometers on the input and output tubes that further affect the character of the tube sound.  You can make it lean or lush depending on your taste and your system.  It has a lifetime warranty that can be transferred for a fee but the rig needs to be sent back and will be brought up to spec if needed.  Look for a used one on the Decware site.  
I am now on my second used Allnic Pre-amp but still miss the fun of the CSP3.

Well done!! Well done indeed!!