If you look at the construction of an RCA cable it can be very simple or can be very complicated. Eg. Audio quest higher end interconnect cables are extremely creative, the diagram on their website is visually stunning.
Ultimately, Cable design in many cables involves coloring the tonal signature. Cooking a pizza is all about making all the ingredients come together so it tastes amazing. Some do it a lot better than others and Pizza is a lot cheaper.
For cables, There are conductors, drain wires, shielding, Airfilled tubes, different gauges, etc…. Then there’s the copper strands which can be very detailed and numerous and twisted. So much going on.
With pizza you have cheese and sauce and spices and the dough and it’s all mixed together with all kinds of variation. Ultimately the sauce makes or breaks the success of a pizza slice.
With audio cables, hi end Cable designers are endlessly trying different ways to do all this. In the end they find something that sounds kind of nice. They may not know exactly why it does sound the way it does.
So that’s my take on Pizza design and cable design.
I think it’s very helpful to clarify that cable manufacturers are in the business of producing variations in sound (eg. Coloring).
The problem with marketing these products is that it takes a while for someone to discern whether the variation in sound is something they will be comfortable with. We all listen to a diversity of music plus home theater stuff where variation is all over the map.
To insert new cables and when a change is heard, the immediate tendency can be to like it. We all like change. And then maybe we determine whether the change was good and that takes a while. And then the breakin Factor further complicates and extends the evaluation.
And of course the biggest marketing strategy of all time is positive reinforcement.
There are fundamental basics that are very important to cable production but the marketing Materials don’t really go into all that in a very helpful way. Its proprietary and we can’t reveal what’s in the secret sauce.
It’s a royal pain in the ass to buy cables. I’m using 15 ft mogami w3173 cables between preamp and amplifier with RCA custom connections and they were just lovely. 3173 are not sold the retail because these are thicker cables. And only $150.
btw: None of my posting have ever been intended to convince ANYONE they're doing something wrong, in their own listening rooms. Far as I'm concerned: that's your domain, you're the pope in your own home and whatever makes you happy is fine with me.
When I was in the system building business: (though my own taste has always been for transparency/signal integrity) whatever flavor/coloration of sound the customer desired...WELL, my philosophy was, "The customer always thinks they're right!" and it was there to make THEM happy.
I just hate it when those disposed to experimenting with their own gear, are dissuaded by so much uneducated negativity, every time the subject arises.
@rodman99999 am I correct to assume that you place the dielectric constant of the insulation as having a higher importance than the particular metal used?
Anyone needing a rationale for experimenting with new cables in their system and/or feeling dissuaded by the Church of Denyin'tology's antiquated electrical doctrines: take heart!
Many new electrical facts have been established in the past 100 years, that support audible differences, between various cables, etc.
I couldn't find anything like, "Updated Electrical Theory For Idiots", but- did manage to find something resembling a cartoon, that even a child could follow. It neither mentions AC/sinusoidal waves in wires, nor does it go into the photon propagation of electromagnetic waves. It does, however, emphasize/demonstrate how Electrical Theory has progressed, since the 1800s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGJqykotjog
The following presupposes a certain amount of knowledge, in the field of modern Electrical Theory. Click, "more" in the first link's first answer, to get it's entirety. Note how it mentions the OLD, "... commonly held misconception that the flow of electricity through a wire resembles a tube filled with ping pong balls...", to which most Denyin'tologists fervently adhere:
It's an established (measured) fact that an electromagnetic wave's propagation and speed, are dependent on the materials of which the transmission line (cable) are made (ie: Dielectric Constant/permittivity). The better (lower) the Dielectric Constant the better the flow and the longer it takes for that material, to become polarized. One reason anything that comprises an RLC circuit (ie: capacitors, cables, PC boards), takes time to, "form" or, "break/burn-in".*
*Something that makes the Denyin'tologists apoplectic.
and (note: frequency figures in EVERY equation and our typical music signal is comprised of a VERY complex mix of information/frequencies, potentially lending to multiple time smears, if not handled correctly):
Even the most inane (regarding the Sciences) must admit; braiding and twisting wires eliminates/reduces EMI interference.
That, of a necessity, lends credence to various cable geometries.
That better dielectrics enhance the propagation of electromagnetic waves (ie: your music signal), lends the same credence to choosing cables with better materials (ie: Polypropylene, Teflon, air, etc).
Of course: anything the Church of Denyin'tology's popes can't fathom, they'll summarily dismiss (uneducated twits that they are).
To me: it appears a tad more complex than assembling the typical pizza (and I LOVE to cook)!.
Happy listening and (as Richard Feynman would often encourage): NEVER STOP LEARNING!
*L* Another forum that starts off cheesy, chills, and everyone gets stuck and strung out....into cable consternation....yet again.
@holmz ...cables as a very subtle form of eq....and brag rights, I suppose.
I don’t make claims to perfection, so feel no need to get involved.....
"If it makes you happy, why are you so sad?"
Nice post Jerry.
Well - for me the unhappiness is that everyone is piling on with “just listen to it” like a “supreme” pizza where the majority of poster are the same toppings..
This could actually be a great thread if people talked about the dielectric and insulation material, voltage biasing, shielding, weave patterns, and even silver versus copper and solid versus stranded cables.
Then we could actually have some adult conversation as to what/how these things might contribute to some sound signature. And whether those things are additive and act in a synchronised manner, or whether some negate the other.
And we had this conversation before, on your lamp cords you so proudly display in your profile picture: what is their capacitance, resistance, impedance? You surely have measured with your Audio Precision scope.
Why would I have an audio precision scope? and do they even measure capacitance and inductance?
If I was building cable for retail sale, then I would likely have the tools to measure both capacitance and inductance. But I usually buy Mogami wire which have the specs published per meter por foot. As I want to minimise capacitance and inductance I just use short cables. I suppose if I liked the sound of higher values, then I could just use longer cables…
And you are 100% sure their “specs” are the best there is, nothing better out there? Never been curious to try alternatives? And no, you don’t have to be a blind mouse to try cables.
It is the designers who appear to be blind without some specs to define their cable.
And for some reason, you fine lamp-cords folks think we who buy fancy cables do not look at any of that compatibility stuff at all 🤦♂️
New cables are in the post to me.
Both speaker cables, and some silver ones for IC construction.
But I’ll keep the avatar. It shows the system right after a move, when we needed to get it running a year ago. I would have used a coat hanger, if I did not have a spool of wire.
But this thread was about cables being like pizzas, so why the attack?
A cable is only like a pizza if it is all subjective.
Beer is not like a pizza, in that it is made to some objective standards of bitterness, ph, alcohol %, dryness, etc. and the German purity laws date back hundreds of years, so we know what is in it.
Your cables are more like imported dog food or baby formula…
I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
TT fellow said use the shortest cable you can, and a low dielectric constant seems better, and try to use 23ga or larger, and try to find one with low capacitance.
(He sells the TT to the dealers.)
If I am running a cart which, for instance, needs some capacitance loading… are we going to buy a cable with a known capacitance/foot? Or select something with nothing defined?
I don’t know . Ask your dealer?
And we had this conversation before, on your lamp cords you so proudly display in your profile picture: what is their capacitance, resistance, impedance? You surely have measured with your Audio Precision scope. And you are 100% sure their “specs” are the best there is, nothing better out there? Never been curious to try alternatives? And no, you don’t have to be a blind mouse to try cables.
And for some reason, you fine lamp-cords folks think we who buy fancy cables do not look at any of that compatibility stuff at all 🤦♂️
Oh great! Then what are you doing in the forums arguing nonstop against every single thing you have zero interest in? What kind of proof are you seeking? Trying for yourself does not count, right?
I like pizza, and might try one for myself tomorrow… but making analogies to pizzas and cars is a bit lame IMO.
I saw “Pizza” in the title and I started salivating before I even heard the bell ring.
With respect to metrics:
Even the hot sauce has an internationally recognised Scoville rating
And ales and hops have the IBU (International Bitterness Units.)
they do not just chuck beer ingredients into a pot and hope and pray for the best. They use a recipe and adjust the quantities to work towards an optimum.
If I am running a cart which, for instance, needs some capacitance loading… are we going to buy a cable with a known capacitance/foot? Or select something with nothing defined?
Trying 3 cables with slightly more or less capacitance is different that blindly trying three different cable in a blind mice fashion.
These people with a lot of money to spend are smart people and yet they continue to buy these very very expensive cables. Why is that? They must know it’s not the greatest and smartest thing to do.
Why do you worry so much what other people do and buy. It’s their money, they can spend it however they see fit. For them.
I’m all for quality cables but the buyers need to be more careful so as not to escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
Ditto. Same as above.
Too much protesting, whining, bitching, moaning. For nothing. I already told you. Lots of affordable audio there, you just have to look. Let me see if there is anything I can do to help? What are you looking to buy, and for which gear / equipment?
escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
Almost forgot: which is “more meaningful endeavors in audio “? Is it room treatments? Like that thread you started a few days ago “bookshelf vs diffuser panel”. You did not seem to like when I said bookshelf is better than nothing, but cannot be compared with a proper diffuser and other acoustic treatments. So I am speechless now, as you don’t seem to want to spend a dime even in most generally accepted “meaningful endeavor” like room treatment. So, what is “meaningful endeavor” in audio, really? Please describe it for me, maybe I am missing something
Oh great! Then what are you doing in the forums arguing nonstop against every single thing you have zero interest in? What kind of proof are you seeking? Trying for yourself does not count, right?
If that same energy and human labor and time was put instead to practical & productive use (I.e getting gainful employment), they would instead perhaps be able to buy afford, and try the same exact thing(s) they bash nonstop all day every day in all audio forums constantly. Just a thought
Without any proof if these things working in some better way, I’d rather just sit me arse eating pizza and listening to music.
The only way high-end cable manufacturers can continue to be in business is to employ people, whoever they are, to mix together all kinds of strands and insulators until they create a new sound that is appealing that may be marketable. And it continues. Without a new product every year they will have a diminished market because interest also diminishes unless the product line continues to change.
These people with a lot of money to spend are smart people and yet they continue to buy these very very expensive cables. Why is that? They must know it’s not the greatest and smartest thing to do.
I’m all for quality cables but the buyers need to be more careful so as not to escalate a problem that only serves to divert money away from more meaningful endeavors within the audio world.
It is often posted that the stratospheric high price of some high end cables is due to the extensive R & D that goes into the formulation of the final cable.
This is just my opinion, but when I hear this I wonder what kind of jobs the posters have/had to think that designing, producing and testing audio cables is a very challenging job. Again, my opinion, but from my viewpoint it sounds like a rather straight forward and mundane task of combining various metals, insulators and connecters (probably provided by subcontractors), to produce a final desired outcome. Even with 1000s of different possible combinations how long do you think it would take a few people to perform? In my world it better not take too long or your history.
I just think that compared to the universe of semi-sophisticated jobs, this does not strike me as approaching rocket science.
I have but one word, to express my personal view as regards the Church of Denyin'tology
It never ceases to amaze me the length these people go to just “prove” their denialism. So much time wasted & spent in researching, typing, and reading this stuff armed with a powerful Google machine, just to claim some audio thing, anything audio, does not work and it’s a waste of (other people’s) money. If that same energy and human labor and time was put instead to practical & productive use (I.e getting gainful employment), they would instead perhaps be able to buy afford, and try the same exact thing(s) they bash nonstop all day every day in all audio forums constantly. Just a thought
I have but one word, to express my personal view as regards the Church of Denyin'tology and it's obfuscating, classically (possibly: willfully) obtuse adherents:
Maxwell's equations weren't wrong, but: there's much more involved*, when we're dealing with retaining a plethora of frequencies/voices (instrumental and vocal), ambient/room information (height, width, depth) and placement of the afore mentioned voices, within that space. (iow: much more sensitive info, than what's contained in DC or AC).
The electrical signal has no idea about the placement of musicians in a room.
And the plethora of frequencies are all <20 kHz, which is not like MHz or GHz, where transmission line theory is used.
The author in the link you provided below says so.
Even those involved in manufacturing PC boards for more the more sensitive RF systems, take into account the variables involved when choosing materials, as signal speed is dependent on their dielectric constants and possible frequencies to be encountered.
Ok we can talk about dielectric constants.
We've engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what's what with our wires.
If I'm wrong: my apologies!
"But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?"
A relatively short length of cable shows no measurable transmission line effects for low frequency signals. But if the cable is long enough (or the frequency components of the signal are high enough), transmission line effects will begin to appear with increasing frequency or length.
The signals are generally on low frequency, say <20kHz.
Refer to my post, dated 09-18-2022 at 09:32am (Indiana time)
If I’m gonna spend a couple thousand dollars on some so-called hiend cables I’m gonna need a better explanation of what I’m getting.
Why? Do you need someone to tell you what pizza tastes best to you too? Read reviews and user feedback and buy used cables at 50% off retail that exhibit the sound characteristics you’re after or buy from direct sellers with nice trial periods. If they don’t work out just sell or return them. Why are you over complicating this? Cables are by far the easiest components to try for next to nothing. Take advantage of it!
We’ve engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what’s what with our wires.
If I’m wrong: my apologies!
Let’s pretend that you do not know my motivation for the questions. And that your presenting a motivation is speaking on my behalf, or worse.
"But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?"
A relatively short length of cable shows no measurable transmission line effects for low frequency signals. But if the cable is long enough (or the frequency components of the signal are high enough), transmission line effects will begin to appear with increasing frequency or length.
The signals are generally on low frequency, say <20kHz.
If these hi-end cables had some measurements, or could show that their cables were different in say a null test, then it would be easier have some confidence that they are different.
The ICs for instance are either different or they are not. They have not even shown that they are different.
But let’s say that they are.
Then people use them as tone controls.
What is the point of that?
Why not just have a transparent cable and use a preamp with tone controls?
Maybe I want my pizza served so that I can add the pepper and grated cheese myself, maybe I don’t.
If I’m gonna spend a couple thousand dollars on some so-called hiend cables I’m gonna need a better explanation of what I’m getting
Do you HAVE to? It sounds like you are protesting and whining to me.
Why the hell are cables so damn expensive? Because people are willing to pay because they know no better.
Again, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. And it sounds like “you know better” than those stupid people who pay a lot of money for those cables. Again, whining, bitching and moaning. Lots of protestations going on here. Relax. Order from Amazon, or make a trip to Home Depot. Your “problem” is solved. No need to be worked up this bad on a Sunday
If I’m gonna spend a couple thousand dollars on some so-called hiend cables I’m gonna need a better explanation of what I’m getting.
When I call up a company and ask questions some of these people seem very arrogant. They give standardized rhetoric that never really answered my question. They are being purposely vague they really don’t want to give you a meaningful helpful response. They want people to have faith that their pretty cables Will be fine.
I have spent a lot of money on cables. I now have mono blocks, which are a good idea, and really long speaker cables which I bought before I got the mono blocks. So I’m stuck with the longer speaker cables. I am told I would not benefit much if I was to get shorter cables.
But now I need a 14 foot interconnect cable which is so much more then a 1 m interconnect.
Why the hell are cables so damn expensive? Because people are willing to pay because they know no better.
Some of us have had the blessing/experience of being heavily involved with the production and recording of live sound, in a multitude of venues, over decades.
Having recordings that one has personally made, can generate high confidence in one's reference materials.
I've never been able to abide audible distortion*, in any system I'm responsible for, or: listen to.
PLEASE: save me the, "auditory sensory memory" rhetoric, as that (as regards EVERY OTHER of the human senses) varies greatly between individuals. ie: how hard is it for you, when you answer the phone, to recognize the voice at the other end, even if you haven't heard it in years?
*ie: "warmth/musicality", colorations, added pleasant harmonics, etc
Maxwell's equations weren't wrong, but: there's much more involved*, when we're dealing with retaining a plethora of frequencies/voices (instrumental and vocal), ambient/room information (height, width, depth) and placement of the afore mentioned voices, within that space. (iow: much more sensitive info, than what's contained in DC or AC).
Even those involved in manufacturing PC boards for more the more sensitive RF systems, take into account the variables involved when choosing materials, as signal speed is dependent on their dielectric constants and possible frequencies to be encountered.
We've engaged in this conversation before, so: I suspect your queries to be more argumentative, than inquisitive. Hence: this post is more for those extant, that are genuinely interested in the Physics of what's what with our wires.
If I'm wrong: my apologies!
"But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?"
I have no doubt that there are many using cables as tone controls, which simply goes to show: cables CAN/DO make a difference in reproduction.
However: everyone I know that uses high-end cables, regardless of position in their system, is attempting to do as little damage to their signal* as possible.
*the goal = neutrality/faithful reproduction
at first glance these two statements appear contradictory to me. They raise the question as to how do we know that cables are revealing the truth versus adding desirable distortion? Seems like there might be a place for measurement here.
once we recognize that there is such a thing as desirable distortion then the question becomes what is the most effective way to add it when it is desired. I would think that DSP would certainly be competitive with cables as a means. If you want to learn more about desirable distortion I suggest you read some of what Nelson Pass has written about his First Watt amps.
"It serves to illustrate how ridiculous cable design is. Especially if they can’t explain what they’ve done Beyond marketing rhetoric.
This also applies to preamplifiers and amplifiers. And here even more complicated, and many are profoundly confused as to why components sound the way they do."
Agree 100%. It’s incredible how much money is made from cables transferring a low voltage audio signal. The recipe and ingredients are constantly changing in order to fleece the audiophile sheep of their disposable income. The more they spend the better they feel. Then there are the common sense, practical types who build their own cables with quality materials that get the job done just as well at a small fraction of the cost. They are often mocked however by the elitists who’ve spent a weeks pay with results no better.
Maxwell pretty much defined the theories that are used in transmission lines. But what part of a stereo systems is like a transmission line?
Are maxwells equations correct in most settings, but wrong in audio?
@holmz Well, I was talking about the US, but yeah Italy kinda makes good pizza too. And no, despite having a few very good BBQ restaurants you’re absolutely correct that NYC can’t hold a candle to the south when it comes to BBQ. I still stick by my assertion that it’s tough to get a decent bagel outside of the NYC area and pizza absolutely gets worse in the US as you head west or south from NYC. Sticking to my guns there.
I have no doubt that there are many using cables as tone controls, which simply goes to show: cables CAN/DO make a difference in reproduction.
However: everyone I know that uses high-end cables, regardless of position in their system, is attempting to do as little damage to their signal* as possible.
*the goal = neutrality/faithful reproduction
"Making measurable things referred to as faith is a bit of an oxymoron."
The Church of Denyin'tology uses measurements, based on 19th Century Electrical Theory, as the foundation for their faith.
Naples and other Italian places seem to make a decent pizza. And there are other countries that have decent pizzas. But I could see how NTC might be better than South Dakota or South Carolina. And I would not expect NYC to do BBQ like other places.
@holmzWell, I was talking about the US, but yeah Italy kinda makes good pizza too. And no, despite having a few very good BBQ restaurants you’re absolutely correct that NYC can’t hold a candle to the south when it comes to BBQ. I still stick by my assertion that it’s tough to get a decent bagel outside of the NYC area and pizza absolutely gets worse in the US as you head west or south from NYC. Sticking to my guns there.
The Church of Denyin'tology holds to the faith-based religion.
ONLY: well practiced at projection and cognitive dissonance!
I have Physics/QED (grounded by theory/experiments post 1900) to back what I believe about wires.
What’s necessary to understand what happens, regarding signals and transmission lines, is an education that extends beyond H.S. STEM courses (if you even have that much, under your collective belts).
Making measurable things referred to as faith is a bit of an oxymoron.
Back to the pizza.
It looks like a lot of people take a pure whiteDAC, run it into a warm preamp, and use warm cable, and use zobel network speaker cables to play out of a bright speaker in a tiled room.
But it is like a pride flag of filters to arrive back at white.
I liked to color up to the end of kindergarten, but I moved away from that about the time I went from tricycles to bicycles. (And I graduated kindergarten at the normal age of 5-6.)
I suppose if one has bright speakers, amps, or room, then it makes sense to try and colour things with a cable… especially if they are renting, or cannot control the room.
LOL!! That’s exactly what I am doing now my friend. It’s Saturday evening. Am I allowed to? Cheers anyways
I just figured the alcohol analogy went over your head, and the user name it had my wondering.
Oh, and this exactly what you said:
So yeah they are exactly like a pizza, and everyone claims that their pizzas are the best.
Regardless of what THEY claim, do you have a preference in which pizza you like?
There is a local mushroom pizza with truffle oil and gorganzola that is pretty good.
Wood fired is preferred.
Or do they taste the same as long as they measure the same? 🤦♂️😂
Let me us another analogy.
If I have meal with ingredients (say representing the preamp), and the finally dish that made (representing the amp), I do not put a pizza in the middle to spice it up.
But maybe an iron skillet imparts a flavour that is different from a copper one.
If one is running mono blocks then the cables get shorter than a stereo amp in the middle, and their flavour diminishes.
And I would rather just have the pre amp and amp, and flavour maybe with tubes, and leave out over flavouring with additional layers.
Sorry, but the farther you get from NYC the worse the pizza (and bagels) gets. Although I do admit having lived in Chicago their deep dish is yummy for what it is, but it’s not real pizza. Ehem. California pizza? Oxymoron. As they say in Brooklyn, fuggetaboudit!
Naples and other Italian places seem to make a decent pizza. And there are other countries that have decent pizzas. But I could see how NTC might be better than South Dakota or South Carolina. And I would not expect NYC to do BBQ like other places.
interesting, thoughtful post. i wonder about this stuff a lot. took a long, slow lok at disassembling one end of some morrow audio cables to add bana plug to one end. this and other cables ive examined have a geometry goin on. id imagine theres an informed geometry to it with many possibilities.
"To the wire fanatics it is a faith-based religion with zero scientific backing. "
The Church of Denyin'tology holds to the faith-based religion.
ONLY: well practiced at projection and cognitive dissonance!
I have Physics/QED (grounded by theory/experiments post 1900) to back what I believe about wires.
What’s necessary to understand what happens, regarding signals and transmission lines, is an education that extends beyond H.S. STEM courses (if you even have that much, under your collective belts).
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