The idea for this thread came from @sautan 904 op titled “Who thinks $ Speaker cable really better than generic 14awg cable?
My reply:
From op:
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Some are, some are definitely not. It really is a matter of discovering what brands out there (and there a lot) offer the best performance for your money. Some are really worth the money and clearly they offer a big increase in sound quality. It seems the dealers you used were not very discriminating about what brands they carry. This does not surprise me since I have found many are not well informed. You really need to seek out somebody who has compared different makes of cable and really believes in what they are selling.
So I thought it a good idea to pool knowledge on this subject and make a list of what people are using and why. This is my current preferences:
Speaker: Hi Diamond 7
IC XLR: Hi Diamond XLR 3
USB: Vovox
Ethernet: AQVOX, Vovox
Power: Belden
The Hi Diamond speaker cable was so much better than other cables I have tried to date. The increase in musicality, depth and detail in bass, increased sound stage and cleaner more detailed top where some of the benefits I had with this cable. The same can be said of their XLR interconnect.
The Vovox I have only been able to compare with some generic cables, and it is much clearer than those. I intend trying some other brands in the near future and I will post my findings.
Ethernet cables I find make a difference and I am currently using both Vovox and AQVOX, compared to various generic makes and the blue Meicord these are both much preferred, opening the sound stage and lowering the noise floor.
Power cables I haven’t so far experimented with a great deal, I’m using heavy Belden cables that are part of a dedicated mains spur arrangement, so that each individual piece of equipment has its own spur. In order to test cable types I will need to introduce a mains block (Shunyata?).
@david_ten ,the Swiss Vovox Textura USB which was better than several generic cables I tried. The difference between the Vovox and Sablon is quite substantial. More open, better transparency, greater musicality, better separation and the top doesn’t have the digital glare that appears on some testing complex recordings. I have not compared it with even more expensive cables but have read that it stands up well against even more pricey options.
I have the powered version, there is also a signal only version. Length is 1.2m, good flexibility, and twin cables, one signal the other for power. Absolutely no money wasted on fancy packaging, it comes in a padded envelope.
I will lend the cable if you are near. I’m in Gloucestershire, UK.
Updates: Sablon USB getting even better with use. Never had a cable that made so much difference.
Furutech NCF IEC plug improves sound quality, fitted to one of the five Spurs I have, which are in effect flying leads all the way from the consumer unit. So no plugs or sockets in the way. Just got one to try and so now intend replacing all of them. First plugged into fidata NAS and the top was smoother and more natural. Bigger change when plugged into Mola pre/dac, better everywhere.
As soon as I’ve finished making the silk thread suspension isolation furniture prototype (to be available commercially) I’m going to try one of Marks Sablon Reserva Elite power cables. He’s only selling direct at this time. I’ve heard really good things about them, they are pricey, although apparently comparable to cables that are ridiculously expensive. We will see.
@kosst_amojan - I couldn’t agree more that DIY is the way to go for cables if you are even remotely handy and don’t have a super busy, lucrative career.
Plus, then you can experiment with materials, geometries and conductors. I find it fun and fascinating. The cables you described above.. speaker cables? Otherwise, that sounds like overkill for a pair of interconnects. 😁
I made a couple of pairs of speaker cables from braided CAT 6 cable.. they sounded incredible, but man, pulling all the wire out was a pain. I’d definitely buy some OCC solid copper instead of harvesting it from CAT 6 if I were to do it again. But I won’t, as I’m currently using a counter rotating helix design that sounds even better.
One geometry I never tried that seemed interesting would be a single, large diameter signal with a neutral made from multiple small solid conductors, braided around the signal conductor. One for the future..
Many years ago there was a scientist name John Magnan who made high ends interconnects, cables etc. His cables were hands down the best and still today sound really good. He did do lots of tests working for NASA on sound .........
Update on my cable array. I am now using Sablon Reserva Elite USB between fidata and Mola Mola. Big improvement in SQ. Everything is better with this cable, more open and natural, better bass definition, very musically engaging, greater transparency etc.
I’m continually amazed that this controversy somehow manages to continue to rage on and on.
The founder of Minster Cable himself said that his product was created because of marketing research that showed that Hi Fi buffs are gullible enough to actually pay exhorbitant amounts of money for perceived differences in the sound of speaker/audio cable, not because there are real measurable differences in their sound.
Mr Geofkait, new member old member no significance related to the thread. You enjoy your high dollar cables , make you feel justified you spent all that currency. Oh and I love your little doll profile pic.its so cute!
@mmrkaic Is it your assertion that all phenomena are measurable? In the same vane, there are measurements for all phenomena and verbiage to express those measurements? Man you must have a ton of hardware at your disposal and a very expansive vocabulary. Congrats!
>>>>Good luck. Nobody measures cables. Were you thinking maybe NASA or MIT? 😛Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe that’s because it’s so boring.
For someone who insinuates to know informal logic, you make rather poor arguments. Your latest one is an argument ad populum.
>>>>I know an Appeal to Authority when I see one. You cannot win. I’ve heard it all before. End of argument. Why is it that skeptics always demand someone else should do the testing and never test anything themselves? Just a lot of talk.
@maine95 - nice. That's exactly what I did with the vh audio silver in cotton and an OCC copper neutral. They should sound great. Let us know what you think.
>>>>By pseudo scientific narratives I assume you mean explanations or claims you disagree with. Nice touch.
No, I mean claims without any empirical support. You know, the boring stuff that engineers and scientists do, like measurements, blind tests etc. In one word: proof.
>>>>Good luck. Nobody measures cables. Were you thinking maybe NASA or MIT? 😛Didn’t you get the memo? Maybe that’s because it’s so boring. 😬
>>>>By pseudo scientific narratives I assume you mean explanations or claims you disagree with. Nice touch.
No, I mean claims without any empirical support. You know, the boring stuff that engineers and scientists do, like measurements, blind tests etc. In one word: proof.
To be clear, I put the cotton insulated silver inside the hyperflex. The hyperflex is mostly there to protect the signal from kinks and maintain even spacing of the neutral away from the signal. I used the hyperflex in place of the solid teflon or PET tubing used in most DIY IC designs. It's more flexible and doesn't kink when bent.
@toddverrone, Hope you're recovering quickly from the crash. Thanks, I'll compare hyperflex to cotton on the next IC project. Data would be interesting and could be useful but don't necessarily speak to differences we hear in individual systems.
1. I stated my credentials simply to elucidate why I reject the pseudo scientific narratives about "the sound of cables". There was not argument from you or anyone else that needed to be refuted on its merits. So, no argument from authority happened here.
>>>>By pseudo scientific narratives I assume you mean explanations or claims you disagree with. Nice touch.
2. But, let’s make this exchange interesting. Do you want to discuss cables? Fine, lets do that.
>>>>No, I don’t want to discuss cables. What would be the point?
a) As a starting point -- what proof do you have that different cables result in different sound? Have you conducted any blind tests and recorded the results? Can you demonstrate statistically significant results that support the claim that cables influence sound? Can you show me your data, the conditions of the experiment/test and your statistical analysis?
>>>>>I have no proof. I do not conduct blind tests nor do I believe results of blind tests are conclusive of anything.
b) Have you measured the voltage at the speaker’s terminals when you used different cables? What differences have you found? Have you listened to the same cables in a blind test? What statistically significant differences in the subjective perception have you found? Show me your data, the conditions of the experiment/test and your statistical analysis.
>>>>No, I have not measured the voltage of cables. I have not measured capacitance or inductance, either. I generally make up my mind over a period of time for just about everything, including cables. Snap decisions, like blind tests, are meaninglessness to me.
c) Have you correlated the price and the subjective performance of different cables in a blind experiment? What have you found?
>>>>No, I haven’t correlated price and performance of cables. I generally survey available cables including used cables that fit my budget then flip a coin.
d) Does it matter? I will not convince you and you will not convince me. :))
>>>I never try to convince someone of anything who’s already made his mind up. 😬
Whoa! Another excellent example of Appeal to Authority. Once I read, "I have 40+ Years in the business" all the errors in the screed suddenly made sense. For example, just one of many errors, high end cable manufacturers don’t get their wire from China, they get it from Japan. Geez, everybody knows that. Oh, by the way, your spell checker is kaput.
Note to self: How come these loud vociferous newcomers threaten everyone with blind tests? Didn't they get the memo that blind tests don't mean anything?
GET SOME CABLES FROM A DEALER LIKE BLUE JEAN CABLE OR SIMILILAY PRICED CABLE COMPANIES AND YOU'LL NOTICE NO DIFFERENCE AND SAVE YOURSELF PLENTY OF CASH! ALL THESE FANCY CABLE COMPANIES SAY THIER CABLE WILL DO WONDERS FOR YOUR SYSTEM. ALL THE PHRASES USED ARE UN MEASUREABLE SUBJECTIVE CLAIMS, "WIDER SIDE STAGE, , MORE TRANSPARENT," ETC. SEE IF THEY WOULD DO A BLIND TEST BETWEEN THEIR CABLES ,( USED TO BE CALLED SPEAKER WIRE UNTIL THEY RAISED THE PRICES AND HAD MAKE THE PRODUCT NAME JUSTIFY THE EXORBADANT COSTS). ,., AND SOME GERNERIC CABLES. WONT HAPPEN! ALOT OF THESE BIG COMPANIES GET THEIR WIRE IN BULK FRON CHINA, AND THE LIKE AND YOU PAY A HEFTER PREMIUM! iT' FOR THOSE THAT CAN AFFORED TO PAY 5K -10K FOR SPEAKER WIRE I UNDERSTAND AND IT MAKES YOUFEEL BETTER. MANY OF THESE WIRES LOOK AWESOME.IT;S LIKE HAVING THAT ROLEX WATCH , FINELY MADE, AND ITS A STATUS THING. TELLS TIME LIKE A THOUSAND OTHER WATCHES. THIS IS MY OPINION WITH 40 + YEARS IN THE BUSINESS. SO PUT YOUR HARTD EARNED $ INTO YOUR SPEAKERS, WHICH i BELIVE HAVE THE LARGEST EFFECT IN QUALITY SOUND.
1. I stated my credentials simply to elucidate why I reject the pseudo scientific narratives about "the sound of cables". There was not argument from you or anyone else that needed to be refuted on its merits. So, no argument from authority happened here.
2. But, let's make this exchange interesting. Do you want to discuss cables? Fine, lets do that.
a) As a starting point -- what proof do you have that different cables result in different sound? Have you conducted any blind tests and recorded the results? Can you demonstrate statistically significant results that support the claim that cables influence sound? Can you show me your data, the conditions of the experiment/test and your statistical analysis?
b) Have you measured the voltage at the speaker's terminals when you used different cables? What differences have you found? Have you listened to the same cables in a blind test? What statistically significant differences in the subjective perception have you found? Show me your data, the conditions of the experiment/test and your statistical analysis.
c) Have you correlated the price and the subjective performance of different cables in a blind experiment? What have you found?
d) Does it matter? I will not convince you and you will not convince me. :))
Geoffkait: Whoa! Appeal to Authority Alert! Big time! 🤔
To which mmrkaic replied,
"My dear friend, there is no appeal to authority here, just an explanation why I don’t fall for pseudo-scientific BS that is peddled by many in the audio community.
Incidentally, the actual logical fallacy that you insinuate is more accurately called "appeal to improper(!) authority". Having an advanced degree in physics is not an improper source of authority, when we discuss physical phenomena, such as electric conductivity."
>>>You’re doing it again. That’s an Appeal to Authority, you know, when someone tries to win an argument by bringing up education or degrees, or by name dropping some big authority, even when it’s in the field of interest. Otherwise, anybody could win any argument simply by listing his credentials, which could get a little silly, no? Besides, two electrical engineers or physics majors can completely disagree about almost any argument you wish to mention, especially when dealing with how electricity works. Obviously they can’t both be right. Please observe just how many electrical engineers and even physics majors dispute that there are audible differences among power cords or that wire directionality is real. Capish?
I have bought more PC than one would care to mention to include the most popular DIY Cable, Furutech N55, N32 and N22 with Rhodium and NCF connectors. And to be honest, when it comes to neutrality and sound quality the Nanotec # 308 and Cerious Technologies Graphene PCs are the cream of the crop and the # 308 single-handedly beat my Ch Acoustics X20. The Furutechs in my system were by far warmer and softer than the # 308.
I’m in agreement with the Deulunds, both IC and SC are outstanding!
My dear friend, there is no appeal to authority here, just an explanation why I don't fall for pseudo-scientific BS that is peddled by many in the audio community.
Incidentally, the actual logical fallacy that you insinuate is more accurately called "appeal to improper(!) authority". Having an advanced degree in physics is not an improper source of authority, when we discuss physical phenomena, such as electric conductivity.
"I use 12 AWG speaker cables that I bought on Amazon for~$15 and the power cables that came with my amplifier. If I paid more, I would feel really stupid and exploited. Now, I have a Ms in physics and know a bit or two about electrical circuits, conductivity, electrodynamics etc., so bold claims about "the sound of cables" don't impress me too much."
@mmrkaic. No Masters in physics here, but I did study biochemistry and taught chemistry and physics. So I understand the skepticism. I was skeptical too, that's how I ended up doing DIY. Constantly seeing people talking about cables made me curious, but I wasn't willing to drop lots of cash to see what all the fuss was about. My initial experiments confirmed that they do make an audible difference, so then I was willing to use more expensive and better materials..
I practice and teach yoga. There's plenty of science behind some of the 'claims' of yoga, but plenty of claims without any scientific studies to support them. But I don't care about science when I'm practicing. I just do my practice and notice changes in my bodymind. After 20+ years, I'm aware of what yoga can and cannot do for me. I've decided to take a similar approach to audio. Use logic/skepticism to keep my mind in check, but remain open enough to notice things. Because if you're always skeptical, you can miss a lot. But if you're always open, you can be filled with a lot of rubbish.. so I walk that line between the two, often falling to either side. But that just helps me see the line more clearly.
That said, I just looked and LCR meters aren't too expensive. I'll need to get one soon.. because curiosity is fun!
Sorry, did not want to subject you to any Inquisition, let alone Spanish. :))
But I think that you yourself have asked the key question -- why so many manufacturers don't provide those numbers?
I use 12 AWG speaker cables that I bought on Amazon for~$15 and the power cables that came with my amplifier. If I paid more, I would feel really stupid and exploited. Now, I have a Ms in physics and know a bit or two about electrical circuits, conductivity, electrodynamics etc., so bold claims about "the sound of cables" don't impress me too much.
@mmrkaic (why do mentions not work with all members?)
Unfortunately, I don't have the equipment to perform those measurements. If you do, I could make a new PC and send it to you to measure, since I need one anyway.
Out of curiosity, why am I being subjected to the Spanish Inquisition when everyone else recommending commercially available cables is not? I've yet to see a manufacturer who provides the info you're asking from me..
I'm with @grannyring on this. Duelund DCA16GA speaker wire is cheap and crazy good. You can have world-class speaker wire for as little as $100 depending on what length you need. I spent $160 because I needed 12 foot runs, that's still cheap. Plus very little-to-no break in time needed to hear a difference. Only disadvantages are the initial smell out of the package, and the cloth wire jackets pick up a lot of hair and dust on your floor.
I'm going to try some of the Duelund interconnects using the same wire someday.
@maine95. Sorry for the slow reply. I'm a mess from a mountain bike crash..
The neutral stays in place without a problem using the foamed Teflon tube from vh audio. It's squishy, so I just kept the neutral coil a little tight and it locked itself in place around the foam tube.
Guys try Mojo Audio cables probably the best stuff out there. I tried them all but keep going back to his cables. I still think his products comes with a 30/45 day return. I have his power cords and interconnects in my system. My hunt is over Enjoy the music
@ toddverrone It is a good first step. Now, if you could please measure the resistance, capacitance and inductance as a function of frequency, we will have a much more complete picture.
toetapaudio....cable manufacturing can be a complex undertaking...therefore more expensive. Unique metal core, fancy windings, etc. all make a difference. In truth you have to find the cable that voices with your system to your satisfaction. That effort may or may not result in an expensive cable. I use ClearDay cables....not expensive, but they work very well with my components. If you touch base with ClearDay, he'll send you a trial set for a free evaluation. I have no financial interest in ClearDay...only like the results.
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