I use Dr. Feickert Analogue Protractor (Next Generation) to choose between Baerwald, Loefgren or Stevenson on different tonearm and this is a great tool compared to others i have used before. Not necessary to buy new to pay full price, they are much better priced on second hand market. For example another one that comes with HiFi Test LP is free.
Cartridges: Complete Scam?
I’m very new to analog, and researching my options on forums I keep coming across the same sentiment: that past the ultra low-end cartridges, there is very little gains in actual sound quality and that all you’re getting are different styles and colorations to the sound.
So, for example, if I swapped out my $200 cartridge that came with my table for a Soundsmith, Dynavector, Oracle, etc, I may notice a small improvement in detail and dynamics, but I’m mostly just going to get a different flavor. Multiple people told me they perffered thier old vintage cartridges over modern laser-cut boron-necked diamonds.
It’s possible that these people are just desperately defending thier old junk and/or have never heard high end audio. But if what they’re saying is true, than the cartridge industry is a giant SCAM. If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight I better get a significant improvement over a $200 bundler — and if just all amounts to a different coloration, than that is a straight-up scam ripoff.
So guys — are these forums just BS-ing me here? Is it really a giant scam?
So, for example, if I swapped out my $200 cartridge that came with my table for a Soundsmith, Dynavector, Oracle, etc, I may notice a small improvement in detail and dynamics, but I’m mostly just going to get a different flavor. Multiple people told me they perffered thier old vintage cartridges over modern laser-cut boron-necked diamonds.
It’s possible that these people are just desperately defending thier old junk and/or have never heard high end audio. But if what they’re saying is true, than the cartridge industry is a giant SCAM. If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight I better get a significant improvement over a $200 bundler — and if just all amounts to a different coloration, than that is a straight-up scam ripoff.
So guys — are these forums just BS-ing me here? Is it really a giant scam?
174 responses Add your response
"For the OP and because what I’m telling here the best option is the MINTLP protractor that is dedicated/custom made for its analog rig and that have all the advantages you name it for a hundred buks." IMO Raul nailed it direcly on the head. I was using a dB protractor for years and decided, based on many positive reviews of the MINT, to order one custom made for my SL1200II. Readjusting every cartridge about 2-3 mm back in the headshell, relative to where they had been previously with the dB, resulted in a MAJOR improvement in focus and coherency. To me, the device is indispensable for accurate and easy, quick overhang and alignment adjustment. WELL worth the $100 or so bux I paid for it. No scam here. |
@rauliruegas I have to quibble a little with your assertion that it is the responsibility of tonearm manufacturers to provide universal mounting templates. While I absolutely agree that a tonearm manufacturer must provide a very precise mounting jig (i.e. to allow drilling of the mounting holes and correcty P2S -- which is btw somewhere many fall down) I question if we can expect them to provide tools to mount any cartridge. Given the vagaries in cartridge design and geometry tools such as the UNI Protractor I own (the more specialized precursor to the SMARTractor) allow one to get a much better view of the cantilever and stylus alignment -- yes you could get your own lens and set up and use it with the Mint but the UNI makes it so easy and precise it should better anything you expect from a tonearm manufacturer, and is priced accordingly. As an aside I remember seeing one of the online retailers (maybe Music Direct) offering to give you a deluxe turntable setup using the SMARTractor (along with USB microscope for VTA, Foz for azimuth and so on) for $500 on top of the cost of a new table -- gives you a sense of what they think this service is worth Anyway I accept that we should expect more from our arm manufacturers but there's still room for the top end tools some of us like to use |
Dear @larryi : I understand your last post statements, even that the issue is that no one should need anykind of protractor not even a shop. Problem is the same: responsability of tonearm/TT manufacturers. In the other side seems to me that you are proud of the alignment you choosed: """ my alignment (change to UNI DIN) """ That is nothing special. Here you can read about: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/uni-din-versus-l%C3%B6fgren-b-just-clarify in those times even MF did not understand in deep the whole critical tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment set up. Read the thread and pay attention to the last 3 posts in that MF thread. You can have your own special alignment and call it: USA-IEC or USADIN, to do that you only have to change the input data in the calculations. The real differences in between any kind of alingments is where we have the distortions levels and I means higher or lower levels and where: in between null points and out of those two null points. That it's. I said that in protractors could be something as a " scam " taking advantage of we customers ignorance levels. No one knows everything about everything in audio. In that thread MF did not understan it in full and this confirm my statement. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I agree that the mint is a great option, provided you have a very precise measure of the pivot to spindle distance of your given setup. It is NOT a universal protractor, which means it may not be the ideal tool for a shop. That is a reason why something like the SmarTractor exists. I am certainly NOT endorsing it over the Mint. I merely wanted to explain to the OP why there is something like the SmarTractor on the market. I also agree that it should be the responsibility of the arm manufacturer to provide the right alignment tools. Some do that. I like the SME and Basis Audio alignment tools which appear to be quite sensitive (small changes in position give large visual cues). But, not every arm comes as well equipped. |
Dear @larryi : Reading your post I can see why the audio industry just can't grow up. The ones in the audio industry/manufacturers have a non-renunciable obligation/responsabilirty with all we customers/audiophiles and this responsability is to give the customer all what he need to operate their audio items. In the case of tonearms it's just ridiculous that exist " hundreds " of after market protractors because almost no one tonearm manufacturer gives the accurate and user friendly protractor. The whole responsability is the manufacturer NOT YOU OR ME or any one else. If the manufacturer can't do it then we customers have to forget that manufacturer and buy the tonearms with the one that has the knowledge level to understand how to build the rigth protractor for his design. The best busine$$ in audio are not what the audio industry offers but all the after market audio items that exist because the irresponsability of the manufacturers and for audiophiles like you |that are poor demanding about. For the OP and because what I'm telling here the best option is the MINTLP protractor that is dedicated/custom made for its analog rig and that have all the advantages you name it for a hundred buks. Well, even those 100.00 should not be a necessity for we audiophiles. That's happens because we audiophiles have the culprit, we are less and less demanding and other of us have high ignorance levels. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
madavid0, I can answer your question about the $500 SmarTractor. You, or anyone else certainly do not NEED this item. One can do a a reasonably good job correctly aligning a cartridge using one of the many available tools for the job. It is a tool, and like any tool, there are those who can employ the simplest and most primitive tool and still do a great job, while others will need a tool that makes the job easier and better assures success. The SmarTractor is in the latter category. Good tools, like this are expensive not only because of their tight tolerance in manufacture, but because a lot of thought went into the design. The designer of the SmarTractor has designed something that addresses virtually all of the factors involved in both easy and accurate alignment, e.g., the different size of turntable spindles, difficultly in finding the exact center of the arm spindle (necessary for one-point alignment), and difficulty in seeing the cantilever and precise placement of the stylus tip (built in magnifier located at the precise point for proper focus). The designer even offers its own unique alignment (dubbed UNI-DIN). It can do ultra-precise measurements of spindle to pivot distance by employing a vernier scale (it can accurately measure to 1/20 of a millimeter). All of this allows for very accurate alignment. Is that kind of accuracy audible, or otherwise necessary? I don't know, but, it couldn't hurt. More than the accuracy of alignment, to me, the strongest attribute is how easy it is to do the alignment with this tool. Between taking it out of the box and finishing my alignment (change to UNI DIN) took about 15 minutes, and that includes reading the instructions. My not-so-great eyesight was not really an issue with this tool. I bet it would be a very helpful tool for a shop that has to do many alignments where time is money. |
Dear @madavid0: """
Being honest, your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I'm happy or not happy with it? """ it's clear to me and almost any one that you not only do not make the rigth questions or that you just don't understand what differents posts or questions to you its real meaning. It is clear that the analog experience does not exist in your world. Your stupid questions because there is the rigth word for it says you are not even an analog roockie. " A re you happy with your sound? " is nothing more nothing less the clue of audio the clue for a digital or analog alternative the clue for a good or bad room/audio system the more important clue to evaluate or compare anything in audio. Obviously that you don't/can't understand it and less the why's. First step to understand the importance of that clue is to be sure know for sure what to look for in the quality level performance in any room/system. According to your statements in reference to my questions to you you have no idea what to look for in your own system, even I don't know why you have it if can't understand it. For you can know for sure what to look you must have " thousands " of first hand experiences with live MUSIC at near field seating positions. With out those " thousands " experiences you can't help your self but no one can gives you any kind of help. Secon step is to have an attitude that's totally willing to learn and this means, because you are below an analog roockie level, that if a experienced audiophile tells you: stand up you will stand up in silence and if he tells you cross your fingers then you cross your fingers in silence. Willing to learn means that you have to live you have to experienced in your system the advises that true audiophile gave you before ask nothing about, this is the way to learn in the analog experience. With out these two steps you are " dead " before you can pull/touch the trigger. No one can learn something really usefull only reading what other people say with out knowing the other people audio knowledge levels and certainly not true attendance to audio shows or trusting at 100% on audio distributors but you can learn how to improve your sound if you listen as many room/system you can rigth at other audiophiles places and learning for them what to do and what not to do, then comeback home and live the experiences. As you will learn step by step with patience, time and money ( for all the mistakes you will do. Any of us already pass for. ) you step by step will enjoy more and more your room/system and your questions will left to be stupid ones and converts clever ones to continue the learning proccess. A third step for you could be to check by your self if the tonearm/cartridge in your analog rig set up is accurated and you have to do this with out help of any one, with out ask no one but learning for your self. So, why don't makes your self a favor and makes that set up check-out? and then come back here and share your findings instead to add more stupid questions. About scam in general/normally there are no scams as a true scam. Audio is a special world and a way of different living that you have to understand before put any names. Of course that exist real scams made it by fraudulents persons that takes advantage of the ignorance of audio people but normally it's not. Why exist the " scams " you name it: because ignorance level of the people whom bougth it. A clear example is the potractors. Btw, do you really understand what you posted? Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
HERE'S THE ANSWER THE OP WANTS Any cartridge over £200 is a total scam - because above £200 there are no economies of scale, MC's are a waste of time and money and are just there like a hook for over-wealthy audiophiles. For those with MC's or indeed any cartridge you are far better off downloading a piece of cardboard to align your precision made cartridge. This is whether or not you find a turntable from a dumpster or have an AirForce One. All said and done please use super expensive speakers such as YG, Magicos or Martin Logans - with any ancillary equipment so long as they aren't wired up with Anti Cable - much better off using the stuff from Radio Shack. BTW don't ever buy a class D amp even one made by Rowland as they are inherently rubbish no matter what... |
Yeah. He's just baiting people. Nobody can be that ignorant.
madavid0
you're the scam. |
And yes madavid, you have absolutely no clue how good a properly set up cartridge from the 70s and 80s, using all those tools that make a difference and that you cynically besmirch, can sound. And I can tell you are a newbie to vinyl and equipment because you dismiss anything that isn't the newest, greatest and most expensive. Exactly why the heck are you listening to stone age vinyl in 2017 for Jupiter's sake? If these cartridges are so great -- why are they long out of production and can only be found in the backs of old record stores? Why hasn't someone cloned them? Those "giant killer" Denons are all over the place -- are they really giant killers? Someone on another forum claimed that they had laser-drilled boron cartridges in the 70s, too -- so, where are they all? The $500 protractor that is heavily recommended: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-B1YAlputIvk/WC1xrdPR6aI/AAAAAAABw3Q/VSluQrIUb_04i8BywRaYZXCM28bzr80NgCK4B/... Is it your contention than that $5k and definitely $10K+ cartridges are nothing but a scam? Is that protractor a scam -- will a paper cut-out really provide the same results? If expensive cartridges are a scam, what's not a scam -- ie, what's effective? Tonearms? Is a $15k Basis Superarm 9 a scam? Let's just deal with something real -- that thing is DEFINITELY not even remotely close to $15k to build. Even if it took a week for a master craftsman to piece one together from the finest parts, it would be worth a few thousand dollars at most. Or is it SO ASTOUNDING in terms of sound quality that it deserves to cost hugely more than the world's best tonearms? |
@thehorn: breathing just fine, thank you! I also notice that we share some common choices in our MM collection. I’ve learned something important about the title of this thread: include the word Scam and, focused only on the the ball with pentagons and hexagons, we all become first grade soccer players. Next time I want attention I’ll just yell out "SCAM" And yes madavid, you have absolutely no clue how good a properly set up cartridge from the 70s and 80s, using all those tools that make a difference and that you cynically besmirch, can sound. And I can tell you are a newbie to vinyl and equipment because you dismiss anything that isn't the newest, greatest and most expensive. Exactly why the heck are you listening to stone age vinyl in 2017 for Jupiter's sake? |
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I apologize for chiming in on this topic so late in the conversation. IMO the phono cartridge is a major component in how a system sounds. BUT, the cartridge must be compatible with the tonearm , step up transformer/phono stage and (to a much lesser degree) the turntable. Finding the "right" combination of these components will make or break an analog system. I have found that the biggest changes to the the sound of an audio system are driven from both ends in. In an analog system that would be the first and second transducers. So the order of how an individual component affects the end result (sound), from most to least. Again, this is my opinion and YMMV: 1- speakers 2- Analog front end (cartridge, tonearm, phono stage and/or SUT, turntable) 3- Preamp 4- Digital front end 5- Speaker cables 6- Amp 7- I/O cables 8- Digital cables |
madavid0- the easiest way to enjoy turntable madness is to simply allow YOUR OWN EARS to dictate where your wallet follows. You are clearly not going to join the ranks of owners of $10K+users, and perhaps your system doesn't justify such extravagance. Your threads just polarize and encourage tired,re-run debate. Sticking with digital may be your path. |
Larry, Some speakers DO suck, obviously. Madavid, You don't HAVE to do a damn thing, if it irks you. Among the rest of us, you will have launched yet another sidebar on what protractors are used, if any, how often one adjusts or checks adjustments, etc. FWIW, you can download an excellent arc protractor off the internet for FREE, if you have a printer that can be set to print at a 1:1 scale. There's no such thing as alignment "by sight". That technique is called "misalignment". And you certainly do not need a microscope, at all, ever. It's obvious you are trolling, by the way. |
I didn't bother reading the long back lash you probably got on this topic..I decided to get back into vinyl about 2 years ago. .demoed 4 turntables and finally settled on a clear audio concept with concept mc cartridge. .then the long painful journey for a good phono amp,settled on a rega aria. .really good for the money. .just recently wanted to up the game so I saved up the cash got a sweet deal on a vpi clasic 3. .what a difference. Then traded my hegel h360 for a rogers pa1a. .as far as cartridges go I agree it seems you have to sell a kidney to get a really nice cart..I bought a dynavector dv20x and find it to be a solid cart ,but I also picked up a sumiko pear wood celebration used and man I love that cartridge. .so much emotion.music doesn't sound colored just honest and natural. .I guess it's all a journey and I wish you the best of luck with yours. |
So researching what it takes to correctly align a cartridge — VTA, rake, tracking force, protractors, microscopes, listening tests, etc...let’s be real here. Are you guys who are proud of your dumpster recscues and vintage cartridges REALLY doing all of this? Or do you just sort of line things up by sight, fiddle a little, and call it good? Do I seriously need this $500 protractor jig? Do I seriously need a microscope? |
Wow, there are so many issues alive in this thread. At the heart of the matter, the OP is looking for rational explanation for what makes one thing better than another; absent said explanation, the product, or class of product is a "scam" if it costs a lot. But, things are not so easy to explain. First of all, there is virtually no consensus on what sounds good. Sound reproduction is so far from perfection that the combination of strengths and weaknesses of any given product will affect listeners in so many different ways. Secondly, there has been no comprehensive way to measure or analyze sound reproduction. As an analogy, consider Cremonese string instruments. Here, there is fairly strong consensus 16-18th century instruments from certain makers in Cremona are among the finest ever made. Yet, the "secret" to why they sound so good has eluded scientists that have been studying these instruments for many years. Compared to a speaker, a violin should be a piece of cake to analyze and to copy. The speaker is like a violin, in that it is a resonating body, but, it is a whole lot more, has to do more and is a much more complicated mechanism. In short, there is no simple logical or scientific analysis that can be applied to why audio gear sounds the way it does. Just because one cannot explain why product X sounds better than Product Y does not make the purveyor of product X a charlatan for charging more than the price of Product Y. The fact that some may not even agree that product X sounds better does not change things. The OP quickly surmised that higher-priced cartridges are a scam because the majority opinion of the first half dozen postings was that they are a scam. As a scientific method for determining this issue, I think most of us will agree this survey methodology is a wee bit lacking. It is amazing that the OP demands much more rigorous support from those who disagree. |
@ thehorn Just a little edification on why maybe the op is getting such replies Take a look at the titles of the treads he has initiated so far, see a pattern? Cartridges: Complete Scam? Basis Turntables: Worth it or Ripoff? CD players = dead? Class D = Trash? Rega and ProAc: Bad? Anticables: Scam? The impression given so far by the op is that he is basically anti audio and the majority are wondering just what the heck he is doing in these forums at all. Or that he has some agenda, you chose. Also even where members have taken the time and trouble to put together a pretty meaningfull informative reply the op has blown those posts off and carried on his merry way of insisting all of audio is some type of huge scam. There will always be the haves and the have nots, its life. Hope that illuminates the attitude now being displayed towards the op somewhat. Have a blessed day! |
Hi MadavidO I returned back to vinyl about 9 years ago. Although I had continued to collect some 78s over the years, this was the first time since about 1992 since I'd had a real set up. Since my return I've bought a hand full cartridges as well as had a chance to hear some different examples in shops including owning the Music Maker III. As beautiful and detailed as it was it did not have the slam and weight I was looking for, so I sold it. Plus I needed cash at the time and a nice gentleman now happily owns it. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people on this forum that have owned more examples than my self. I also understand that in general moving coils can slightly improve as the price climbs but here is my take. OK for starts I am now running a Grado gold with a paratrace stylus on it that I potted with wax. Tracking, detail and realism are all top notch to me. The other two I've been bouncing between are ( Are you ready?) $60 Shure cartridges, the sc35c and the m35x. Both of these cartridges today are marketed as spin and mix DJ carts but have a professional hifi and broadcast history. Now I am using the n35x and a n44-gx stylus for lower tracking purposes. I'm also looking into a paratrace for these as well, simply because they sound very clear and balanced with an actual bass response that most of the more expensive cartridges I've owned lacked. I have mentioned before here on this forum that I manufacture guitar pickups and grew up in the guitar building, repair and retail business.That does not necessarily make me an expert in high end home audio, nor do I mean to criticize the purchasing or quality of uber priced cartridges. The thing is with the exception of exotic stylus, quality magnets and coil wire is not that expensive. Of course there is the labor cost, but no guitar pickup manufacturer or a company like Shure who's been tooled up for years would even consider charging in the thousands for their products. Again if people want and can afford cartridges in that price range more power to them. Just my take. respectfully JP:) |
Holly #x$& Madavid0, I can't believe some of the replies you're getting for a pertinent
question. Some of these Files have got theirs heads right up there. Stevecham,
" I choose to save my input for a more enlightened and deserving
poster".
I ask you
Madavid0
.... how does this guy breath? I've used various cartridges, on various tables, using various arms &
cables since the mid-70's.
I also have a life; house, cars, skis, taxes, electricity, water, add a few
more & what's left is the audio fund. I've owned various Audio Technica's, a Nagaoka, a Grace, a Grado
Sonata, spun a Benz Glider, and listened to many a Low-MC's in the $3500 dollar
range. Right now I'm setting money aside for a Dynavector-DV20X2-H, which will put
me out about $1200 bucks out the door. So dollar wise things are about the same. What about the Grado? Well it's like several guys have posted, " it has to be set up correctly & there's got to be a synergy with your gear ". I like the Grado, it was priced right, (new arm-board, set-up & taxes) $800 CDN out the door. It's warm, lush, quick, lovely sound stage, neutral, but it's the wrong set-up. With my Pre-amp the 0.5 output voltage
is too weak, I should have chosen the 5.0 Sonata, which is what the Grace was. Another stain on me was not doing enough
research concerning a Rega RB-300 arm, matched to a Grado Sonata MI
cartridge. Add an Oracle TT & we have the infamous Grado hum. (BTW) Grado
refused to assist. To answer your question, are high-end cartridge purchases a scam? Well that depends. You're spinning records here, you're not making Ben Hurr, so what is the sound of music worth to you? For me, Hi-Fi is one of my great joys in life, my table cost me $1800 CDN in
1980, the arm $350 & the cartridge another $300. Since then I've bought one
tone-arm (Discovery phono cable Incl) and the Grado $800, and now another grand
for the DV Dynavector. Not including the Pre-amps I've purchased, that's well
over $4 grand to spin records for 37 years. Some say that's nuts, some say
that's small potatoes. I think you should be able to get a good starter kit (used) to spin your
records, with a new cartridge for $2500.
Will esoteric low-MC cartridges costing $3500 & up
sound leaps & bounds better than a properly set-up $1000 dollar unit? Well
.... if you have an outstanding recording to start with, a room with proper
proportions, a room with properly placed acoustic treatments, a well matched
Pre-amp and aptly matched phono cable, I'm sure a difference will be auditable. If you work within the limitations of your resources .... I don't think so. Enjoy your obsessions. |
I don't understand waht you want to ask? There is wristwatches with quartz movements for 100$ that show time much more exact than any Patek Philippe for 100k$. My friend have painted almost the same picture as Picasso, but no one want to buy it for 100$, Picassos painting was sold for 10 millions $ and they are almost the same quality. And so we can continue with examples in all spheres of our lives. Of corse 2,5k$ cartridges are better than 200$, if you know why you need it. The same is with loudspeakers, amplifiers, turntables etc. |
I think the OP is asking a valid question. Different cartridges have different sonic profiles (as do all audio components). Depending on your program material, room acoustics, and listening habits, different systems will yield different sounds. The trick, and in my experience, the fun of the hobby is designing systems that delight your senses and allow you to have more meaningful listening experiences. You may enjoy having several systems. If I’m just potting around the house, I listen to a Tivoli Model 1. If the family is making noise, I slip on some headphones (currently driven by Schiit electronics). Sometimes I enjoy my Harbeth P3r speakers driven by a nice set of Odyssey components. I still enjoy my old Altec model 19 horns driven by the Dynaco S70 I built from a kit when I was a kid. Horses for courses, as they say. If you are serious about learning how to enjoy this hobby, start with a modest (affordable to you but not too expensive, yet) system, try different things out, and go from there. The Mofi turntable and Studio Tracker is a great start. There are dozens of relatively inexpensive ($100 - $500) cartridges you can try. You’ll probably end up liking certain cartridges better for certain types of music or listening situations. You may end up with something you like better than the others for most situations, and that will inform you as you experiment with different systems. As you gain experience and develop your listening skills, you can be more confident in your purchasing decisions, and, hopefully have more fun and satisfaction listening to your music. I like my MoFi MasterTracker. It sounds great on my brand new Technics S1200 GR. I liked it better than the UltraTracker on my somewhat resolving system (Harbeths, Odyssey). I have an old Shure V-15 III on a Thorens fitted with a Grace tonearm that is perfect with the Dynaco and the Altecs. Sometimes I will fit an ancient Grado F3+ on the Technics and guess what... it sounds wonderful, especially with my old ’60s and ’70s rock records. I had an Ortophon M5e on an entry level Rega that tracked like a bloodhound and sounded great on more beat up records (that didn’t sound good using the MasterTracker). Years ago I had a Denon 103 on an old Elac/Mircord that was miraculous (and dirt cheap). Yes, you can spend ridiculous amounts of money on cartridges. I would caution, however, that system synergy becomes more important as you move up the price ladder. Putting the Mastertracker on the Rega RP1 would be a waste of money, just as senseless as putting an AirTight on your MoFi table. I’m sure it would sound great, but you will not be extracting its potential on that table. As a famous rock band once claimed, it’s a question of balance. |
OP, probably best that you use Streaming, iPhone dock, or cheaper disc front end to playback music. Why, because a TT setup sounds to expensive
for you, at this time,
and perhaps even to complicated. Good TT setup is not simple to do and, if wrong, easy for a TT setup to sound ordinary and even bad. It's always a choice and there is quite a lot of choice available. Disc is simple, can even sound very, very good, and is only one component. Many disc players have a volume control so all you need is a quality amplifier, speakers, cables, and you are set. Too easy and no complaints, maybe and hopefully... |
@chakster and @lewm, Thank you for your replies! I should have written that there are huge differences between new cheap and expensive LOMC cartridges. I did not intend to compare what seems to be apples and oranges to me (vintage carts and new carts) and should have made that point clearer in my post. I agree with Chakster that a vintage MM (if properly matched to the tonearm) can provide results that are as satisfying as a new setup costing many times as much, however there's a great deal of knowledge and a somehow steep learning curve when it comes to the used market. I also recently came accross a vintage AT Signet MK-111E that was an absolute steal at a little over 300 bucks, considering that it most likely smokes any new LOMC costing 10 times as much, but I don't think that it's fair to compare new MSRP with vintage prices, at least not for the purposes of determining whether a 2/3k LOMC is a scam compared to a much cheaper new LOMC cartridge. Best, Luiz |
Madivid0 - I don't think you get it! IMO, you are the person that will create another thread asking if expensive cables are a scam? Expensive speakers are a scam? Expensive amps are a scam? on and on. You probably put down the people that buy more expensive equipment than what you can afford. There are many of you that think their $200 amp sounds as good as a $70,000 solution amp, or your $300 NHT speakers are every bit as good as a $100,000 pair of Magico/Wilson/others... As a replier stated, what don't you like about your system which is a valid question to ask. If you are happy with a $200 cartridge, great, keep it and go on. If you aren't happy, then listen to other cartridges in your price range. If you can't hear a difference in cartridges, then either your system doesn't have high resolution or you can't hear the difference, don't blame vendors that price cartridges out of your price range. |
I love these discussions and most of the responses. With all things considered I gave up chasing Audio Nirvana long ago. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. In the world of audio sound there are countless high end and ridiculously expensive pieces and components and ways to dump hundreds of thousands of dollars in search of the very best sound reproduction money could possibly buy. I always say if you have it then smoke it! Chances are pretty darn good your ears are the weakest link and if the truth be told you likely can't honestly hear all that much difference between a decent $200 cartridge played on the same table and arm as a $2,000 cartridge. It is all good and it is all OK because some here can hear the difference if the change the wires from their amp to the speakers while most cannot. I will always be a staunch believer that once you put together a decent system the room acoustics have a great deal more to do with how pleasing the sound is than most of the rest. You can put a really great system in a really terrible room and I assure you, it will sound terrible. After many years of working in loud environments and loving loud music it is my Audiologist who tells me the real truth and that I can't hear for $heet any way. I am still perfectly fine with my Altec Model 19s and a Luxman PD 121 TT with SME arm and a Denon 103 MC cartridge with a step up matching transformer. Just decide what sounds good enough to you in your listening room and sit back while you spin some clean vinyl. |
@madavid0 Where do you find rare cartridges that compete with the finest modern cartridges? It’s all abouit digging, same with rare records, can be different sources in different countries. One of my facebook friend discovered NOS (New Old Stock) stash of very rare JVC Victor cartridges along with Audio-Technica cartridges in Las Palmas. Those units were brand new, never used, forgotten stock in the old record shop. In the same shop he has bought Kenwood L-07D an extremely rare direct drive turntable. The guy came there for the vintage records, not for equimpent or not even for the cartridges. The price for a stash of those rare carts was nothing compared to the market value today (he has bought everything). It was about 3-5 years ago. You never know where you can find stuff like that for cheap, but if you can’t do that yourself, some honest audiophiles selling it for reasonable prices, but normally it sells quickly! The prices only goes up (not down) since some amazing cartridges have been discovered in Raul’s thread on audiogon and approved my many serious audiophiles (and tested against modern MC). 10 years ago the prices even for vintage MM cartridges were so incredibly low, so the smart users of this forum purchaced many of them. Now we know the top contenders for sure. Some of those cartridges were extremely expensive in the time when they were made (in the 70's and in the 80's). Where you can find it? How do you know which one to buy? Do your own search at least read this forum before posting what you’re posting. If you know nothing, can’t find nothing, at least respect those private sellers (audiophiles) who discovered a rare units, shared their knowledge online, made honest grading, provided pictures etc for their customers. Anytime you buy anything on ebay you’re fully protected and full return is guaranteed by "ebay buyer’s protection", so even total idiots are protected. Ebay is always on the buyer’s side if you fill a claim. It’s hard to imagine a better service for the buyers. Do you think in this situation the seller will try to offer a non working unit or to rob a customer? It’s impossible. People who keep telling you it’s a risk to buy used cartridges knows nothing about it, really! In the worst case buyer can waste time, but it’s impossible to lose money on it (return is guaranteed by ebay’s buyer protection). It can be a nighmare or pain in the ass for the dishonest seller, but not for the buyer. But actually it’s nice to read the description and ask question before buyin’ anything to maske sure what you’re buying. I have no idea why you’re talking about discogs here, selling records is not like selling a high-end cartridges! But even on discogs everyone is protected because you pay via paypal and you can always ask for full refund if you’re not happy with grading etc. People may have 10 000 records in the shop and can make mistakes in grading, but it’s hard to imagine anyone has even 1000 cartridges. |
the OP makes an amusing comparison between Magico's and Elacs - funny thing is that Magicos really need both grunt and dexterity to really come alive - think Soulution and Constellation. You ain't gonna make em 'jump' nor would anybody pair magic's with a £400 mass market amp with significantly less power and grunt - although with the Elacs you most probably can and will. So your comparative sample merely supports the viewpoint that one does not pair a LOMC with a load of equipment that does not match the MC. bringing out the best in a top flight MC is going to be a far more expensive and fussy procedure than a £200 MM like a cheaper mass market speaker against a high end design |
I don't think you do. Buying a used cart is worse than buying a used smartphone. Yes there will be honest sellers who have took great care of their stuff. They are usually the ones who will point out the smallest of blemishes and have kept all of the paperwork. However, for every one of these there's at least a dozen who should have the phrase 'caveat emptor' emblazened over their ad and tattooed upon their foreheads. |
So I'm browsing through the cartridge listings. It looks like the ads fall into one of two categories: 1. Dealers trying to move cartridges at full price while pretending they are massively discounted. 2. People trying to unload their old junk. I've learned already through buying vinyl through eBay and Discogs that people habitually lie about the quality of their items -- every single "as-new", "pristine", "looks unplayed", etc, record so far has has been dirty and scuffed. Unless it's literally new in sealed factory shrink wrapping it'll end up being someone's beaten-up crap. Does the same mentality apply to selling cartridges? At least when a dealer is selling their lightly used cartridge for basically full price, it'll look and probably is in good shape. But some of those private ads the casings look beaten up -- why do I want your beaten up junk bro? At least sell it to move and don't lie about how wonderful it sounds! Or is it everyone is scanning the listings non-stop for actual good deals and snap them up instantly so that all that's left are the dealers like that guy claiming to sell XYZs for 40-50% off (I do like the ones that have that cool little ball in the front...) and the old junk no one wants? Where do you find rare cartridges that compete with the finest modern cartridges? |
Whoever disagree with (market) prices assumes some other ''concept '' or theory of value. Say , one assume some ''real value'' different from the (market) prices. As I try to explain with classical economist who distinguished between 'value in use'' and ''value in exchange '' ( aka prices) . Alas they deed not succeed to formulate any consistent theory of the ''real value''. Except perhaps Ricardo in his ''corn economy'' in which all ''values'' are expressed in terms of corn amounts. So one should be aware what one assume. There is no other economic theory than theory of (market) prices, |
madavid0 ... your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I’m happy or not happy with it? If I’m happy with my sound, does that mean my audiophile journey is complete -- is this the "right" mindset? What if I’m NOT happy, may I continue to pursue better sound in that case?@madavid0 it looks like you were frustrated when you began this thread and that you’re even more frustrated now. My suggestion is that you schedule a visit with a good audio dealer. Then you can listen and decide for yourself. |
Madavid is now living under an assumed name in Uruguay or Moldavia. My feelings as regards the last few posts between Luiz and Chakster is that both are correct. Based on my admittedly limited experience there IS a big difference between "low cost" LOMCs and very expensive LOMCs; if there is a Nirvana it is to be found somewhere among the high end LOMCs. They can often be a lot better than inexpensive LOMCs (or they can be awful). But even here, no generalization holds, because we have acolytes for one or another modified version of the DL103 or 103R who will tell us how giant-killing those cartridges are or can be, for one example. On the other other hand (note that there are 3 hands), it is my opinion too that there ARE MM and MI type cartridges that play at the same level of excellence as any of the most expensive LOMCs. Good enough that preference is a matter of legitimate opinion and certainly also system-dependent, probably also room-dependent. |
@luizfcoimbra I will completely disregard cart/tonearm/phono synergy and compatibility issues and give you the most honest answer that I can, having myself bought and/or experienced a variety of cartridges ranging from U$200,00 to U$10,000: YES, IT MAKES A LOT OF DIFFERENCE and the upgrades are not subtle, but rather like "I CANNOT live without this improvement". I wanted to believe that there’s no difference between a thousand dollars cartridge and a four thousand dollars cartridge I do not agree with this rule at all. Tried a few respected (brand new) $3000-5000 MC cartridges on high value various tonearms and returned to the rare vintage MM cartridges with ease. First any MM cartridge is always much cheaper than MC, but the quality and sound is not "cheaper". This is not universal rule, but carefully selected top vintage MM cartridges ara amazing and still 5-10 times cheaper. Apart from the vintage cartridges the only vintage things in my analog rig are the nos tubes, direct-drive turntables and toneamrs. I will never spend $3000 on any cartridge again and it does not make big difference to me like it makes to you. However, the cartridge is the most important component in my opinion and it’s worth to try many of them to find the one which gives us tonal satisfaction, but it is not about the price as you described it (it's about the search). $10000 for a cartridge is a nonsense, let’s face it (and don’t tell your wife). Anyone is able to build the decent sound system without spending $10000 on a cartridge. Don’t forget the used market offers, $1500 for MC and under $700 for great and very rare MM and that’s amazing deals for superb cartridges. |
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Exactly Todd, case in point: (All carts set up on my table with MINT LP BEST PROTRACTOR and a digital VTF scale accurate to 3 significant figures.) I have an Ortofon Black ~$600 and a $200 Nagaoka 150. Both are great sounding cartridges, I prefer the Nagoaka. I have a vintage Shure V15-IV I $300 and the $200 Nagaoka. Both are great and I prefer the Shure. I have in storage for a couple of years now a VPI Aries Black Knight/JMW 10.5 arm and a couple of Lyra Delos carts. I don’t recall what I paid for all of them new about ten years ago but let’s say ~$6500. Does that rig sound good? Heck yeah. Am I happier and have more fun with my dumpster dive Technics table and old fart Shures, Nagaokas, Grados, Ortofons, Stantons, Pickerings and ATs, some new, some vintage? Heck yeah. It’s not always about $$$ and it’s NOT A SCAM! I said I wouldn’t get sucked into this but I fell for it nonetheless. Go figure. |
OP - your aggressive and absolute manner will not get you far on here. People have answered you: there is no definite answer. Much depends on compatibility of components, cables and room, not to mention tastes, expectations, budget... That’s your answer. I hope you can hold that in your mind. It seems, though, that you need a simple answer, not a complex analysis. Which you will not find on this topic.. though I have a feeling you don’t really want an answer, you already have formed an opinion and feel the need to press it upon us with these threads. (In case anyone has forgotten the topic, it was: does a more expensive cart sound better than a less expensive cart?) |
Dear OP, Even though English is not my mother tongue, I do believe my couple previous posts were quite easily understandable. I'm with Raul on this: you're either unable or not willing to understand what people are telling you. I will completely disregard cart/tonearm/phono synergy and compatibility issues and give you the most honest answer that I can, having myself bought and/or experienced a variety of cartridges ranging from U$200,00 to U$10,000: YES, IT MAKES A LOT OF DIFFERENCE and the upgrades are not subtle, but rather like "I CANNOT live without this improvement". I wanted to believe that there's no difference between a thousand dollars cartridge and a four thousand dollars cartridge, but I know for a fact that the improvement is quite shocking and I learned that when I upgraded from a Dynavector Karat D3 to a Transfiguration Phoenix S. So much so that I couldn't stop there. It is not a scam and that setup you heard would have performed A LOT better with an analog front-end costing as much as the TAD speakers. Best, Luiz |
