Hi Raul
I bought an XV-1s a few years back and owned it for 6 months and preferred the sound of the XV-1, so I sold the XV-1s to a fiend of mine and bought another XV-1.
I have not indicated the XV-1 having any bass problems, in fact the just opposite. the comparison is v the A90 and not an absolute statement.
the XV-1 bass is looser and slight bigger than the A90. On some music that is welcome, on some not so much.
That is one of the joys of having multiple tables/cartridge as there is no cartridge that does it all.
XV-1t - I would luv to hear one, but way too many $$$ for me.
cheers |
Dcarol: Sorry, I see/read that you already has the A-90 and like you better than the XV-1s, good.
raul. |
Dear Downunder: IMHO I think that other than Thom_mackris XV-1t subject your opinion on the XV-1 against the A-90 could be different if you hear today in your system the XV1-s against the A-90, today things are better in the 1s over the XV-1 ( that I pefered years ago ).
In the other side the thread " owner " speaks on the XV-1s and not the " old " XV-1 you are refering.
I like both cartridges_ XV1-s and A-90. In my system I don't found out any low bass issue with the XV-1s but here depend on the tonearm match at tonearm/cartridge set up.
In the LOMC alternative the XV-1s is and belongs for me at the very top cartridge list and I think that other top rated LOMC cartridges ( like the A-90 that's very good. ) not necessary are better than the today XV-1s but more a little different.
Dcarol, maybe it is a better idea ( than the A-90 = to send your XV-1s to Dynavector for a retip whole job where your cartridge will come back to you with the latest up-dates.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Frogman, you have articulated extremely important points. What ever the hobby, there is a dictionary for it; whether that dictionary be official or un-official. I have an "Electronics Dictionary", there is also an "Audiophile" dictionary. We have a unique language that "Goner's" should learn to speak; if they claim to be "Audiophiles". |
Thanks for the clarification Shane and that was my point.
I strongly prefer Zyx Universe to Benz Micro Ruby 3 and Shelter 9000 but none of them are "better".
No financial interest in these products. |
Bill, better is of course subjective. better in my system certainly.
better in every system, probably not. |
What's been lost in this conversation is the subtle but (to my ears) significant changes that the XV1s has undergone in the last year - benefiting from the development of the XV1t.
I don't want to get into the better/worse discussion on these two obviously fine cartridges, but the person reading this is likely considering the purchase of a NEW cartridge.
Taken in that light, current XV1s should be the subject of this comparison (with the current A90).
Ultimately, one's preferences might be the same ... or not.
The usual dealer disclaimer warning applies.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
08-26-10: Downunder
The A90 is the better cartridge overall>>
Correction. To your ears it is a better cartridge.
Better is subjective.
One size does not fit all for any component.
After 9 years that should be apparent. |
I have spent 9 nmonths listening to the A90 and 9 years listening to the XV-1.
The A90 is the better cartridge overall. It is more pure, less sound of its own and sounds musically more coherent top to bottom. The XV-1 has a looser bigger bass and clearly more sparkle in the top end in direct comparison. |
IME a different or new sound can often be misinterpreted as "better".
I believe many hours are required to determine if the new component is better and as Dan said, it's still a subjective call. |
Dan,
No offense taken ;-)
I probably did a poor job of describing what I was hearing. As a jazz lover, it catches my ear if the musicians sound like they are playing as an integrated unit (my preference) or are off doing their own thing. I don't want them to sound homogenized, rather I want to hear how the piano player's comping or the drummer's brushes are supporting the soloist, etc.
I hope you post your impressions once you get a chance to hear the A90. I certainly could understand if others have a preference for the XV1-S. It's a fun hobby ain't it? |
Well I suppose I'll have to wait and hear the A90 for myself. No offense, Jazdoc, but that was not exactly a description of a cart's performance that I would gravitate to. Tighter bass, ok. I could deal with that just fine. However, this issue of musicians being more integrated or in unison sounds to me like another way of saying less resolving. But it is most likely just a matter of personal taste. |
|
on a high resolution system the arm especially i'll bet. :^) |
Yesterday, I had a chance to listen to A90 and a Dynavector XV1-S on a high resolution system. The A90 is new (and possibly not completely broken-in). My XV1-S has 2500 +/- 500 hours of use and it not the most recent iteration.
We played a variety of music. Keeping in mine the caveats described above, I preferred the A90 which to my ear did nothing worse and a few things better. The A90 bass was tauter (but not lean) and the performance just seemed a little better integrated, i.e. musicans playing in unison rather than separately.
Both are terrific cartridges. As always YMMV |
Ptmconsulting,
I liked the Temper/Temper V cartridges, but, they were a bit dynamically dull and polite sounding (some would say "dark") for my taste. The Transfiguration line changed quite a bit toward a punchier sound with the Orpheus and with the cheaper Phoenix. There is not that much talk about the Phoenix, but, for a lot less money, that is a very good, lively cartridge. |
How about an older Transfiguration Temper? The Trans'fig's are very similar in sound to DV's, and with the Orpheus out in production now you may be able to pick up a Temper at a good price (I did). |
Here's another thought and question on the XV-1s; is there such thing as a cartridge that is very, very, close to the XV-1s in sound quality and overall character, but at a more reachable cost? A "poor man's" XV-1s? |
Dcarol,
I am happy to hear that you found a cartridge that pleases you more than the Dynavector. I never doubted that your table was more than suitable for bring out a high level of performance from your candidate cartridges. It is clear that, in your system, and for your particular sonic preferences, the Ortofon is more suitable.
My issue is not with your choice, but, the way others will take that information and try to glean a rough "consensus" about the relative merits of particular cartridges. I know it is not easy for anyone to audition a wide range of alternatives, so a rough poll might be better than nothing, but still, one should be open minded about negative views of certain candidates. I would also add that there is often a herd mentality when something new is introduced that may unfairly favor the newer product when it comes to toting up raves on the internet. Examples would be the opinions on Shelter, ZYX, Miyabe. . . the list goes on and on.
From the opinions posted above, I noted that some thought of the Titan as a "classical music cartridge." While I do listen to a lot of classical, I actually listen more to CDs for classical (much wider selection) and use my phono system more for rock and jazz. In my system, the Titan sounds VERY good. If I were forced to make a choice, I would pick the Titan over my other cartridge, the Orpheus L, and I really like the Orpheus L too. In his review of the Orpheus L, Michael Fremer noted that he has made CD-R recordings of the Orpheus L and the A90 for making head-to-head comparisons. He stated that most of the listeners preferred the Orpheus. I don't know how fair such comparisons are, but, it does show that the list of contenders is WIDE. My own short list of contenders would include: the Air Tight PC-1, Lyra Titan, Orpheus L, London Decca, Allaerte Reference, Koetsu Onyx Platinum, and Van Den Hul Colibre, and Ortofon PW (I have not yet heard the A90). These all sound different, but, I've heard them all sound really good in well set up systems. |
Sounds like you are very enthusiastic. Congratulations Dcarol on you new cartridge. I have a friend who owns the XV-1s and he just bought an A90 but has not had a chance to set it up yet. I'm curious, have you ever heard an Air Tight PC-1? I would love to read a comparison between the PC-1 and the A90. |
Well guys I have the A90. It certainly is different looking. A skinny looking thing.
Chashasl - 'Threadster poses question, two very reputable dealers give sound advice, and threadster ignores advice'. Most dealers have their own pockets in mind....nuff said.
The A90 is a lot better than the XV1-S and it's a no brainer. For anyone who thinks otherwise, do youself a favour and listen to one. It is an eye opener. From cold it sounds good! Not brash or harsh like other MCs, just nice, a bit over smooth but that's a good thing for the first 20 or so hours..it means your ears don't bleed for the run-in period. 20 or so hours later and you can throw the XV1-S in the bin. Yes, the A90 is that good. It possesses a quality that sets it way apart from the XV1-S.
I hope that XV1-S users here aren't offended because I get the feeling that all you need to do here is say something 'negative' about a product and you are cast away.
Well XV1-S uers... the A90 is MUCH better, just like the VPI Classic is better than a Rega 3. It is REALLY hard to put into words how the A90 excels because out of all the MCs I've ever owned, this is the only one that sounds 'right' and plays music and does not sound hifi - if you know what I mean.
The Musicmaker question.... sounded 'thick' and muddy compared to the XV1-S. Also the Musicmaker has a 'mirky' soundstage but this is comparing it to the XV1-S. If compared to something in its $$$ range it might stand tall.
Yeh...I'm not a Classical head. I can't stand classical music which is why I think Lyra cartridges are good for classical :))
The Feickert Woodpecker I am seriously thinking about, I just need to put it up against my VPI to hear what it is like. Most tables today look like spaceships...the nice thing about the Woodpecker...it looks like a turntable IMHO.
Bring on the backlash... but to be honest I am over the moon with the A90. I have heard of a few folks buying 2 of them.... if I had the need (not the funds) I'd do the same.
|
Assumptions...
As a classical listener, I was amused that you delegated the Lyras to us. I've heard Lyras, and found them very boring and didn't serve the music. Why would you think I'd like my Stravinsky or Bax presented in any less of a fashion than my Kenny Dorham or Pere Ubu?
Seems like you staged your musical experiment to serve your outcome. Any table, even the lowest priced Music Hall, could present small differences in the cartridges mentioned.
Very interesting thread, nontheless. Threadster poses question, two very reputable dealers give sound advice, and threadster ignores advice. Then havoc ensues.
Typical... |
I Read a "AYRA "phonostage i suppose you ment ayre and the rest of the system being ayre to. |
Yes im also very curious as to how the test fell in place , from what i read there was one TT involved and one arm .
Question?
-did the dealer set the trackingforce from memory (paperwritings) or something like that for each and individual cart.
- Did the dealer changed the loading for each cart?
-did the dealer move the arm up or down at the back? VTA as that is called in engish i believe ?
What was the used phonostage again ? |
DCarol,
That was an interesting report. You heard a bunch of cartridges in a short time. Are you confident that there was enough time to set them all up properly, or was each cartridge in its own headshell or arm wand for easy swapping? I found that it took quite a while to dial in my cartridge with proper alignment and loading, VTF, VTA etc.
I would love to hear the A90 and compare it to my PC-1. |
DCarol, was there any change in loading or gain on the phono stage when comparing the A90 to the XV-1s? |
Dc, you said the Musicmaker was a real eye opener but you could never turn back. What do you mean? What were it's characteristics and how did it compare to the $$others$$? Thanks. |
Thanks for sharing Dcarol, although things are very much listenertaste / systemdependant you probably will not go wrong with an A 90 and it is as said before , not extremely expensive .
I dont know of a dealer who has it in demonstration at the moment otherwise i would like to hear itfor myself. |
DC,
Congrats on the A90. I'd love to hear one.
The Feickert table is a looker too - a bit like the Clearaudio Concept in looks except the dark and light are switched around, and the arm mounting is more flexible.
Gotta say that if I were a fledgling manufacturer naming a turntable, "woodpecker" is not the imagery I would choose to go for... |
Funny, almost everyone who hears an A90, ends up buying one. It is so different to normal MC's IMO
DC, I guess you bought an A90? |
Well I did the demo.
The system was a Feickert Woodpecker which is very nice looking with their own 10" tonearm. We compared the XV1-S, Ortofon A90 and Cadenza Black, Lyra Titan and a Musicmaker III (Moving Iron ?).
the rest of the system was Ayra phonostage, preamp and Acoustic Energy AE 1 MK3.
The overall system sound was quite neutral and musical which was nice.
So to start we used the XV1-S for about 20 minutes so I could get used to the sound. The XV1-S was very different sounding in this system but then that is what I would expect. But it took me about the whole 20 mins to get used to it.
The overall sound with the XV1-S was very good. Very well defined with a nice soundstage and great imaging. I prefer my system sound and presentation but so what.
Next up was the Ortofon A90. This was in a different league. You really can't compare the two of them. The XV1-S is a really good MC whereas the A90 plays above that level and presents the musical stage as if you were listening to a final mix on a master tape. The A90 is also much more musical as it allows you to enjoy the LP and not think about what it's doing right or wrong.
I can say across the whole audio band the A90 is something VERY different.
Back to the XV1-S to adjust my ears. The step down from the A90 was even bigger than going up to it!
Anyway 30 mins later and a cup of coffee... the Lyra Titan went on. Not my bag at all. I'm not too sure if it was because of the A90 that I didn't really like the Titan or because the laid back presentation that I wasn't keen on, but it wasn't for me. The XV1-S I definitely preferred by quite a margin. The Titan would probably suite classical listeners than any other genre. Anyway it wasn't for me.
Next and the last was the Musicmaker. After listening to the XV1-S, A90, Lyra Titan the Musicmaker was an eye opener. It confirmed to me that the 1970's sound is still around! I could NEVER EVER go to an MM or MI. It is really like going back it time. OK it costs about a 1/4 of the others so it's not a fair comparison. Anyway at least I know that MM or MI is not for me.
The Dr Feickert Woodpecker is really nice. I love the design and costs about £1000 more than the VPI Classic. I like the fact it can take any 9" - 12" tonearm on a sliding base - nice touch. It also makes the Classic look a bit cheap. I maybe borrowing one later to see what it is like in my system.
So, what I thought would happen actually happened. It also proves the VPI Classic can tell small differences between cartridges. The XV1-S and Cadenza Black were played side by side at the very end for about 10 mins. The Cadenza Black in this system also has a more vivid presentation around images. It's soundstage is not as big as the XV1-S nor is the bass as good BUT there are small things the XV1-S cannot do which you hear in the Cadenza Black but more so (read: loads) in the A90.
The XV1-S is extremely good though but if you want what some consider the very best, and I can see why, check out the A90. It is VERY different in what it does and how it does it BUT you may end up falling in love with it. |
Footnote : i ll be comparing VPI - SME 20/A in 1,5 month time as i have ordered one . |
Peterayer that was indeed madfloyds comment about "certain level"
Okay mike , i thought i had reached pretty much a platform here , but may be there is indeed much more to be discovered in the grooves , in the new " TAX " year i will buy a new turntable probaby a SME 20 /5 inch arm (fremer favorite) which is not that expensive , i read about your " the beat " also interesting .
The point i want to make is just that my current combo just smokes digital , my former wadia 581 doesnt deliver 50 % of what i hear now in terms of being there ,micro dynamics, nuances in voices and " tonal rightness".
Enough to be a very happy listener without much desires actually .
|
I am curious. I think that most people would tend to agree that at its price point, VPI Classic is certainly a good buy. Let say that if you have a Classic with all the upgrade option ie ring clamp, VTA tower/valhalla wire, SDS which would bring the total to around $4500-5000 (I think), if you want to upgrade from such setup to something that is clearly better, what would you get? How much would you need to spend to really improve upon the Classic? |
Andromedaaudio wrote; .....but to say the vpi does not have a "certain level" of sound i think is "a bit" far fetched , sometimes in the audiofile world , things which are cheap and already a long time on the market are considered not interesting( the tri planar is also long on the market is i know ). I have listened at dealer demos/shows to almost all the topcontenders in tables(excl SME) and cartridges and i would not say the high $ arms and tables are "much" better than what i own now..... with vinyl there is so much info in the grooves waiting to be discovered that there are many levels of performance in tt's and arms (and cartridges and phono stages) as you go up the food chain. if you truely believe " i would not say the high $ arms and tables are 'much' better than what i now own" then you need to get out more. and that is not any disrespect toward your tt; it's a very good one and a good value....and much better than similarly priced tt's from 10 years ago. but there are tt's and arms out there that are a good deal better....one's that are dramatically better, and one's that are amazing. the good news is that the great performance you are now enjoying can be that much better. and better cartridges have an even higher upside than you might think. |
Thom,
Thanks. Yes, I have been reading that thread and wish I could attend the demonstration. I have met a few of the people who will be in attendance. I trust their ears and experience, and look very forward to reading the opinions after the demo. I have read many good reports on the A90 and on the arms that will be heard. I trust you will have a wonderful evening. |
Andromedaaudio,
I'm not writing that one needs to spend $15/20K on an analog front end to get good sound. Quite the contrary. The single best dealer demo I have heard included the SME 10 table, stock arm, stock cable and a $600 Dynavector cartridge. Total cost was about $10,500. This could be had for about $5K on Audiogon, and I'm sure there are other less expensive combos which sound very good too. I simply said that I heard Madfloyd's former system with the VPI table and arm and his present system with the Raven/TriPlanar combo and "there was no comparison". The rest of the system, including the XV-1S, remained the same. I stand by that statement.
Incidentally, I believe the VPI does have a "certain level" of sound, though I don't think I was specific in my post about that. The SME table and arm have been in the market for quite some time, and I think they are excellent. Length in the market has little bearing on quality.
I agree with you that the phono amp is extremely important in getting good analog results, as is loading, set up etc. |
Dcarol
Have you considered the Transfiguration Orpheus L?
I have had one installed in the latest Graham Phantom II arm for just over a year now. Coupled with a TW Raven One tt and Whest PS.30RDT 'SE', the sound from vinyl is spot-on for my tastes. I too use a CJ power amp with Karan reference MkII pre and Avalon Indra speakers.
I am not far from you in North East Hampshire, UK.
Steve |
Peter ayer , mad floyd , i have no doubt that in your ears the ?? table with the tri planar arm sounded better , but to say the vpi does not have a "certain level" of sound i think is "a bit" far fetched , sometimes in the audiofile world , things which are cheap and already a long time on the market are considered not interesting( the tri planar is also long on the market is i know ).
I have listened at dealer demos/shows to almost all the topcontenders in tables(excl SME) and cartridges and i would not say the high $ arms and tables are "much" better than what i own now ,i would spent more on a better phono pre ,where i think more progress can be made , i say this because someone who starts with analogue should not think that good analogue sound starts with 15/20000 $$ total investment.
Maybe im just deaf who knows ??? |
Hi Peter, In case you haven't been on this thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1278338549&openfrom&63&4#63, our Schroeder Reference / Talea tonearm comparsion in my room at this year's Rocky Mountain Audiofest is shaping up for the Talea to swap between an A90 and an XV1s. Frank will be using an A90 along witn another cartridge he's yet to pick out. No doubt, many who will be in attendance that evening will report on their impressions ... and impressions are all that you can walk away with from a three hour session One more data point ... down the road. ----- I suspect the XV1t was left out of this discussion due to price point. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
I'm one of the people who had heard Madfloyd's former VPI front end. I can tell you there is no comparison between what he had and what he now listens to. The XV-1S remains and now sounds great.
Having written that, I am curious about the XV1S/A90 comparison. Please let us know what differences you hear. Thanks. |
Why no mention of the XV-1t in this thread? |
Hi DCarol, Theres nothing wrong with buying on looks or anything else that moves us. We get to vote with our money, and heck, our spouses and families put up with enough of our quirks and fetishes. We owe it to them to not have a gaggle of wires and a general mess in a shared living space. Im with you on that one, completely. I wrestle with the whole form follows function thing in my turntable designs. Since I know I cant be all things to everyone, I accept it, and let function and modularity drive the process. I realize that fixed, enclosed plinths are returning to fashion, and I cant control that. So it goes, and Ill have to deal with limiting my audience to fans of the modern / industrial look. OK, so after a bit of pain, we know that the only way were going to take that VPI out of your system is to pry it out of your cold, dead hands. I would however, like to see you try one fairly inexpensive experiment before you start playing with cartridges. This could give you a completely different insight into what youre after. Im recommending a drive architecture change. I dont do motor/controller upgrades anymore (too busy), but your neighbors do: http://www.turntable-power-supply.com/index.htm. Note, that Im specifically pointing you away from an SDS upgrade, because youre after a flavor change. A DC drive will give you a different perspective on the music one you may have been looking for ... or not. Theres only one way to find out. I think youll gain a lot of insight into the general sonic character of a DC drive system and how it may suit both your tastes as well as your current system context. Either way (new cartridge first, or a drive change first), enjoy the journey. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
VPI, Conrad Johnson, Levinson. Very well know house sound from each of those for anyone who's been in an audio dealer's shop in the last 20 years or so. I'm glad you like it. |
T_bone
If you walked into a room with 10 pieces of audio product including cables in the system and had never heard the room before BUT was only familiar with the tonearm, do you think you could pick out what the tonearm was doing? |
OK...
Let's put down some previous points.
1. I am VERY happy with the sound of my system
2. I love the look of the VPI Classic
3. I tried another cartridge which sounded (in some areas) better than the XV1-S - IN SOME AREAS
4. I'm going to see if changing to an A90 or something else
will increase the performance level of my already great system.
5. I live in London which is about 470 miles away from the Linn factory :)
That is pretty much it. I also own a larger system in my other home but for this one I would like it to sound better around the VPI Classic which I am very fond of. |
Madfloyd and T bone and thom....amen.
Mount the XV1's and/or an A90 on a top shelf arm. You will be astounded at the sonic performance of those babies. I know, i have both mounted on a Phantom II fed into a modded ARC Ref Phono 2.
I won't part with neither. Note: my XV1's was reworked by Peter at Soundsmith.
2 amazing sounding cartridges. |
Dcarol,
In pointing out where you were from (i.e. a "wee bit south" of Linn), I am pretty sure Thom was saying you were from England, and was not trying to identify you as being from the Southern Uplands or Northumberland rather than Yorkshire or parts south. He was trying to provide you with a point of view originated from your side of the pond rather than you having to rely on a bunch of Ugly Americans who you seem to think have it out for you.
"How on earth can you isolate one component when listening to a whole?" Probably the same way that you can identify differences "as long as all the cartridges are played in the same system." Many of us have experience with isolating portions of systems. Many of us have heard your table/arm with a cartridge, and then heard that same cartridge with other tables/arms and come to the conclusion that upgrades can be had on the arm.
Just because that is someone's advice does not in any way belittle your desire to change carts. Heck, I've bought carts at times because they were cool-looking (and they had a reputation for sounding nice). I apologize to noone. I knew what I was getting into and I was curious (and most of those I have sold). Having no good reason at all for changing carts is fine. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. What I think almost everyone who has critiqued your path (in ways you seem not to like) has come up with is precisely the concept that Linn promoted. The thread Thom notes is one of many in the archives which comes to a similar conclusion. The isolation/table/arm/phono is a platform upon which one mounts the transducer. In this case, people are saying you are not giving your transducer the chance to show its best. The corollary to that is that whatever cartridge you end up buying (because in an otherwise fixed system, you prefer Cart B over Cart A), you will also not be able to have Cart B show its best. I don't think anyone on this thread has questioned your opinion, whether it be based on present experience or expected experience, that Cart B is going to be better to your ears than Cart A. People are just suggesting putting the horse before the cart (pun intended; stupid grin).
I for one would be interested in two followups:
1) what you find out at your dealer (if the system makes the XV-1S sound better than it sounds at your place, and if on that system, the A90 sounds better than the XV-1S).
2) what you find out when you put it into your system (did the same comparison hold true? (note: personally, I find it very difficult to be objective about a new cart I am excited about early on in the post-acquisition process if I go into it thinking it is going to be better; if I generate preconceptions, unless it is super clear-cut, those preconceptions have their own weight).
Good luck! |
Don't mean to fuel the fire but I had a VPI table and arm and kept upgrading, trying to get a certain level of sound. I bought everything that VPI offered and the XV-1s as well (I bought Mike's actually).
I wasn't happy with the sound and most of the folks here on this thread also tried to convince me that the VPI arm was the weakest link. Guess what? They were right. I changed my arm (and table) and was astonished at the difference. It was not subtle in any way. Huge lesson learned. |
Hang out (the vernacular) could indeed be construed as a pun. I didn't think of it at the time. I meant it as in "I frequent a climbing forum".
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
