Classical music listening... what is a better source High Rez or Vinyl?
@idigmusic64 But for very special designs, like batteries for the PS, I would make sure any solid state phono pre I might buy would have a linear power supply and a discrete amplification section. I would look for the same in the analog section of a DAC. As for the analog section, usually if the manufacturer’s description doesn’t make a special point of a discrete section, it won’t have one. But if you’re buying, you can always ask. If you open up your dac (or a clear picture of insides) you will either see transistors, indicating discrete, somewhere near the audio outs or you will see only chip op amps. As for linear power supply, for that you need to see a transformer. And it will be heavy. I have personally found that long-term enjoyment of a component (as distinct from quick reviews) correlates with quality components inside. |
@edcyn the proverbial holy grail I guess. It makes sense that it would only be modern releases. I enjoyed your post. @melm great post as well. How can you find out what type of analog chip or amp your DAC currently has? Plus is there a site were these aficionados post their insight? I also have a couple Mercury Living Legend records coming in the mail soon too. |
A major reason that some digital listening disappoints those familiar with analog is the very poor analog section even in some of the most expensive DACs. They often compare VERY unfavorably with the "analog section" of a phono pre, which is to say, the phono pre itself. But they are there to do a similar job. A DAC may have a sophisticated digital section providing apparent transparency, space and dynamics to a bunch of instruments that seem themselves to be made of cardboard. And some listeners think these DACs are great--especially after good reviews. Without providing as much in effort to the analog section though, the DAC will miss the harmonic richness and depth of sound we usually attribute to good analog. From the point of the DAC maker, most of his potential customers may have never heard a musical instrument except through a loudspeaker. So some multi-kilobuck DACs use chip op amps costing a buck or two at the center of their analog section. Call me cynical. Replacing chip op amps in DACs of all sorts with good discrete analog sections has become a hobby to some and a profession for others. So, if you're an analog person, as I am, don't tell me of your disappointment with your expensive DAC. Look inside first. Then we can talk. And by the way, while amp and preamp manufacturers are pleased to tell you what's inside their cases, DAC makers often are not. Rather, they often try hard to hide what's inside. As do many of the reviewers. |
@idigmusic64 True vintage 45 rpm classical discs have got to be as rare as hen’s teeth. My sense of it is that Thirty-Three-and-a-Third 10" and 12" High-Fi LP discs essentially directly replaced the bulky, low-fi 78 rpm zillion disc classical record albums of the previous era. Yeah, I inherited a few classical 45 rpm singles from my dad. But I’m pretty sure that the idea of putting classical music onto 12" 45’s is an audiophile affectation that only came into existence in the modern era. |
Here is an update. I have started seeking out some of the 1960's London recordings. I picked up an excellent copy of " Luci Di Lammermoor" with Dame Joan Sutherland, OSA 1327, and it sounds phenomenal! I also picked up another excellent one of " Norma" again with Sutherland and one of my favorite opera, with Richard Bonynge conducting The London Symphony Orchestra and Chorus Stereo OSA-1394 I also made some slight adjustments with my photo stage too and are very happy with the improved performance and sound stage. I am curious to seek out some vintage 45 rpm. If any one has any recommendations of Operas or Baroque I would appreciate it. |
If you are serious about hearing some really good sounding classical: https://better-records.com/search?q=tchaikovsky I have the 1812, only mine is White Hot. Freaking insane. |
This is a bad question. There are so many factors that go into this. Number one is whether or not the recording engineer(s) got it right in the first place, or if the recording is historic and relying on outdated recording technology, digital or not. Garbage in, garbage out. Then, is the source digital or analog? Is the mastering digital or analog? There was a period of time when there was labeling on the CD or LP that addressed this: AAA ADD DDD DDA So, you can get an LP that was recorded and mastered digitally. That was thought to be good. Some systems - mine, for example - reveal an audible difference between an LP that is DDA and is AAA. On my system, DDA sounds thin and lacking in timber and atmospherics. |
I am enjoying how this thread is blossoming as well as getting some good recommendations to check out. @frogman @edcyn thanks for the tip on the Decca and London vintage recordings. I only actually got back into vinyl last November and my vinyl classical collection is still in it's infancy, but I did have a mono London FFrr album by Pilar Lorengar from the early 1960's that I saved from my local transfer station. Wow ! I was thoroughly impressed by Ms. Lorengar exquisite voice and the sound stage on the album was quite impressive too. This mono recording was lush and dynamic allowing Ms. Lorengar's captivating soprano voice to dance and soar. I just scored two Joan Sutherland London boxed sets in near mint condition on that famous secondary site for under $30 total. I also picked up a CBS Records Masterworks recording of Yo-Yo Ma from 1983, in mint condition, with harpsichord Kenneth Cooper playing Bach's Sonatas for Viola da Gamab & Harpsichord and other works Yo-Yo' cello playing is full of lustrous and brilliant notes that you can feel in your chest...that is always an indication to me of an exceptional recording. The harpsichord also sounds quite natural and vibrant and not overly tenuous in tone either. Have a good weekend everyone. |
If you want to keep up to any degree with what is happening NOW, you need a good digital source. I absolutely agree! Being a huge fan of contemporary classical music, limiting oneself to vinyl, would eliminate so much incredible music from the last few decades. Thomas Ades, Augusta Read Thomas, Unsuk Chin, Nico Muhly, Erkki-Sven Tuur, Esa Pekka Salonan, James Dillon, Jennifer Hidgon, and many more. Hell, even many composers from the 20th century had a majority of their compositions released only digitally. Elliott Carter, Bruno Maderna, Joan Tower, Toru Takemitsu, etc. I could never imagine giving up such a large part of my music collection, in the name of 'vinyl purity'... |
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I hardly ever listen to my classical vinyl collection; I listen mostly to CDs ripped to a music server (about 3500 classical CDs). As far as sound quality is concerned, the extreme dynamic range of classical music means that soft passages have to be recorded at quite low levels which mean that ticks and pops become more prominent. I also find that mass voices also seem to become muddled when the volume level rises on records. There is also the major annoyance of having to flip records, breaks that might have to be in the middle of a movement (e.g., second movement of Mahler's Symphony No. 8), and difficulty in finding one's place in an opera libretto. The main reason for going digital is that the library of performance is vastly larger. I can find most of the performances I have on records available on a digital format, but, a good 50% of what I have on digital sources were never issued on vinyl. |
+1 @melm . Do digital right, and it sounds great. But don't spend $5000 on a cartridge alone and compare it to an Oppo player and expect digital perfection. Also -- again -- for a serious music lover, there is essentially NO new recording on LP. If you want to revel in glories of past performances -- and many are glorious -- then LP is for you. If you want to keep up to any degree with what is happening NOW, you need a good digital source. Finally: the wavering piano tone on many, if not most, LPs doesn't bother vinyl aficionados? (It sure bothers me.) Or do you all have Nakamichi Dragon CT turntables? The very first CD I heard presented a more convincing reproduction of a piano than most of the LPs I'd heard at the time. |
@melm Fingers crossed on the 9th. The Germany EMI is labeled an EMI/His Masters Voice release, similar to the original UK 1965 releases I believe. I looked at those too, but took a chance on the German reissue (perhaps late 60’s-early/mid 1970’s per cover design?) as it received a bit higher owner ratings on Discogs over the original. But, I’ve learned you cannot always count on those ratings as an indication of better sound quality. Regardless, worth the shot. Not a bad price if it is in the condition advertised. |
@bkeske
You will probably love the Barbirolli Berlin Mahler 9. It's a great performance and a very good recording, if just a bit dry. If you do, and on the theory that the best pressings come from the country where originally produced, you might then want to search for a British pressing. I have a British (EMI) pressing as well as an Angel. Of course they are quite different. The liner notes will tell you that Barbirolli recorded the last movement first. He wanted the orchestra to be at their best for it. |
I have a reasonable vinyl collection and I can tell that having an LP does not mean automatic heaven. If you have a weak pressing, no turntable / cartridge on Earth can help. If you have a good pressing, then the situation is quite different, but that takes experience and luck to come by. Vinyl rig is something that takes years to set up properly, even when you are an experienced vinylophile. When set up right, then vinyl vs digital issue was not an issue anymore to me, I just noticed at one point that I have not turned on my digital for over a year to listen to music.(Use them to listen to netflix every day though). That was my experience. I think when digital is set up properly, it is fantastic for electronic music, but classical is one area where it cannot touch analogue: there's a piece of life missing, and the lowest level of details is not there, it's obscured by the artificial black-out noisefloor, that we perceive as pitch-black quietness. It sounds "correct", though. Digital feels like a perfect recorded event, a performance brought to your room to our present day. LP feels like I am there with the performers as the events unfold. The event is not brought to me, but I am brought back to the event, to join in with the hearts, minds and souls of the humans who created it. |
@rvpiano @frogman Fantastic, I’m glad you have both heard it. I have not. It’s interesting, on Discogs there are not a lot of Mahler 9th available on vinyl, but Barbirolli’s seemed to get high marks from other owners of the set. I have other recordings with him at the helm, and am rarely disappointed. |
Being a big fan of mid to late 20th century, and contemporary classical music (you know, the 'thorny' sounding stuff), I have a quite a few vinyl recordings on Nonesuch records in their "Spectrum: New American Music" series. These were considered a budget label release at the time (late 60's to mid 70's). But despite that, I don't believe I have any other recordings in my collection, on any format, that creates such an amazingly tangible soundstage and 3d image within that soundstage. If you ever want to test a system for how well it images and creates a soundstage, get one of these recordings. Most good used records stores will have copies. Just to give you an idea what to look for, these recordings all have a similar look to this - https://www.discogs.com/Jacob-Druckman-Joseph-Schwantner-John-Harbison-Spectrum-New-American-Music-Volume-III/release/13338316 |
**** I must make one point, however. When listening to music on any source, if the musical message comes through with an acceptably high degree of sonic quality, I don’t think we should agonize over: Will it sound a little better in another format? Enjoy the music, for heaven’s sake! **** Couldn’t agree more and it goes without saying. No need to agonize, but when we have the choice ........ And, the OP did ask the question. Not to mention that, as always in this hobby, “little” is in the ear of the listener. |
Last night I listened to my Chailly Mahler CD box set with The Royal Concertgebouw, a wonderful set. I chose Mahler’s 9th, an amazing symphony. But it hit me, I’ve never had it on vinyl. So searched, found a copy of Barbirolli conducting Mahler’s 9th with the Berliner Philharmoniker originally recorded in 1965. The one I chose is a German re-pressing from EMI, and ordered it last night. Can’t wait to hear that symphony on vinyl. |
For me, it’s:
The main reasons for this order, for me is, that with classical, I care a lot about imaging, soundstage and other spatial cues. And I think DSD, 24/192 and vinyl do those things better than CD (16/44.1). CD creates a very flat image, musicians have this cardboard cutout kind of presentation, where the other formats create a 3d, palpable, image of the musicians. I am willing to give up the increase in dynamic range and quietness of CD over vinyl, in order to get better imaging and soundstage. But with DSD (and 24/192), you get all the benefits of CD (dead quiet, great dynamic range), and the benefits of vinyl (better imaging and 3d soundstage). With no real tradeoffs that I can hear. |
I used to have a cool Rega RP 1 with a $150 MM cartridge. And a built in phono stage in a Rega Brio integrated. Think your TT rig is much beyond this. For sure, the playback was modest, but the physicality of the needle vibrating in the record grove produced a sound that was just more enjoyable that a much more clear and dynamic CD. |
After writing the above post, I decided to give records another spin, as I hadn’t listened to them in a while. I did some A-B comparisons with the same title: streaming vs. LP. Well, I hate to admit it, There is a quantifiable difference between the two. Just listening to the streaming by itself sounded great until I compared it to the LP. The latter opened up the sound to a much wider spectrum. Lifting the proverbial veil. Okay, but I’m not giving up streaming because of this. The benefits are still significant to me. |
What rvpiano sez... Putting it another way, when it comes to music, streaming is the proverbial Aladdin’s Cave. Admittedly, the classical selection will never be quite as luxurious as the one I had access to when I worked at Tower Classical Records in Hollywood, so many decades ago. But I must also say the sound quality from the streaming sites is more than good enough for me to stop worrying and love the bomb. |
I listen to classical 90%-95% of the time. I own about 3000 records and 5000 CDs. ‘But lately, I’m listening almost exclusively to streaming. Why? Because of the limitless variety of titles available. I always had the SQ priority of sound sources: LP, followed by SACD, followed by CD, followed by streaming. ‘However, I’ve tweaked my system to the point that there is now not a lot of difference. It requires a lot of time and effort to do this. It may be true that the best records sound better than anything else, but I don’t believe anymore that digital is inherently inferior to analog. Until recently I firmly believed that to be the truth. In any case, the music comes through to me very acceptably now in all formats. |
@melm Cowboy Junkies – The Trinity Session is a digital recording. Who cares. The fact remains that it sounds better playing back on vinyl than any other digital source. My digital files/CD cannot compare. Not even close to my ears. As I stated, I have a few classical vinyl albums from the 80’s that were proud of being digitally recorded (and they made sure to tell you on the cover). Does not mean I want the CD. Enjoy what you will, as will I. And I continue to buy vinyl because of my preference regardless of whether it was recorded digital or analog. But, I have both, and listen to both. Enjoy. |
@idigmusic64, forgive my late reply. A more revealing and refined cartridge would give you more in classical and jazz listenings also. Your phono stage can equaly accept both MM & MC, so you have plenty to choose from. At nearly the same pricing as the Sumiko you can check Dynavector 10X5, Hana EL, and Goldring 1042. All three would be a worthwile upgrade to the Blue Point. |
I agree re Decca/London and EMI recordings. They are my favorites for the most realistic orchestral sound. Kenneth Wilkinson was a wonderful engineer. It is the recording that ultimately counts. Having said that, for me, that same recording will almost always sound best on LP. Btw, many of those London operas box sets are some of the greatest bargains out there. They can still be found sometimes in bargain bins. |
@bkeske
Cowboy Junkies – The Trinity Session is a digital recording. Surely there was a DAC somewhere in the process of producing the vinyl, that would have provided the same profound immersion, etc., as you found in the lp. That is, unless you think there was something extra added in the process of producing the vinyl that was not in the original digital R-Dat recording and that provided all that good stuff.. Apparently mastering a CD is a process where things can go wrong, or at least not very right. In that sense it is just like mastering an LP. I have experienced what you have, that is an LP clearly outperforming digital. I have also experienced the opposite. Finally, though quality does not correlate perfectly with expense, generally speaking if you spent less on your DAC than you have spent on your turntable + arm + Cartridge + phono preamplifier it is not a fair comparison, IMO. |
@petg60 please explain further on the cartridge. I always was led to believe that a MC, granted I have a HO one, is better for classical and jazz. I do need my cartridge to play a wide variety of music, including rock, but would be curious what you would might suggest. @bkske I will have check out that Hilary Hahn album. @mikelavigne thanks for the honest assessment. I am trying to seek out vintage classical recordings, as I mentioned many end up at the local transfer station in my area, so I am not giving up yet. Everyone else thanks for your input. I thought I might get more technical advice on my current rig in regards to fine tuning my vinyl but we'll see. |
@melm Fair enough. In any event, I am here at the moment simply to take issue with the "the nuances that only vinyl can offer" remark. Given that a favored LP is giving the sort of pleasure described, and I don’t for a moment doubt that, some credit must be allocated to its digital source. Not classical, but a perfect example, that only I can confirm. Not classical, but just bought The Trinity Session by the Cowboy Junkies. It arrived yesterday. When that album fist came out, I bought it on cassette, then/and CD. So, had both for a long long time. After listening to both the cassette and CD versions not so long ago, I decided to buy the period vinyl. As stated, arrived yesterday. I dropped the needle and was immersed in that vinyl version much more than by my digital version, and also more than the cassette (albeit, that was a time period when cassettes were actually pretty good, some call the mid-80’s and into the 90’s their ‘golden years’). There is a depth, a naturalness, timber and tone, and small details that both sprang out of that album in vinyl form while also ‘sucking me in’ like never before. If you are familiar, that album is very quiet, and recorded pretty ‘raw”, similar to many classical or older jazz trio type recordings. That is an example of an ‘album’ I’m very familiar over the years, loved it, but have only really listened to it in digital form (and cassette, as I said, and still have a Nakamichi deck that plays my cassettes from time to time). Bottom line never had it or ever remember hearing it on vinyl, and it simply ‘blew me away’ in comparison to other formats I know well. That’s what I meant, and I’ll stick to it. Same can be said for some of the same classical selections I have in both formats, but to be honest, those are much fewer. I think I made it pretty clear, this is all very subjective, and there are an incredible number of factors, but I know what I prefer, and perhaps you do as well. Great. Enjoy the music. |
Not looking to pick a fight here. I am an old-time classical music analog lover still with major investment in analog. Until about 4 years ago I couldn't listen to digital for more than 20 minutes at a time. I would have been in full agreement then. Problem is that while everyone knows that you had to spend some bucks for good analog, digital with great specs seemed to come pretty cheap. I thought when I bought an Oppo 105 that digital nirvanas should have arrived. But classical demands so much more. Truth is you have to spend more on digital and do it with the kind of care we analog veterans are accustomed to. In any event, I am here at the moment simply to take issue with the "the nuances that only vinyl can offer" remark. Given that a favored LP is giving the sort of pleasure described, and I don't for a moment doubt that, some credit must be allocated to its digital source. Cheers. |
@melm Is the "Paris" LP an all analog recording? I have to assume it was a digital recording. I believe most new classical albums are digitally recorded, but I’m not sure for Paris. Her Retrospective LP was an analog recording, but not so sure about this one. It does not specifically state in on the LP itself, not in any reviews I’ve read, which are very few. To me, it matters little as it still sounds great. I have some LP’s that were digitally recorded (most in the 80’s, the record companies were proud of that at the time and made sure it was stated on the cover typically) and while some still sound very good on vinyl regardless, some not so much. It really comes down to mastering and engineering. You cannot make a broad brush declaration that one is worse or better than another. |
I was reminded again last night, even though I didn't play any classical, I played some jazz that had no electronic instruments, just how good vinyl can sound. It just really perks my attention and enjoyment when vinyl sounds this good. I do also love my digital front end, and yes, some multi-channel classical music, but when the vinyl is good, it just sounds so "right".. You've got to love this stuff........ Regards, Dan |
