I love computer audio -- After many years in the format wars - LP / Cassette / Beta / CD / SACD -- I got fed up.
If you don't mind fiddling with computers & you can get a decent network set up - nothing beats it - but you have to feel comfortable with computers. I use a QNAP 32 TB server with raid 5 -- to a Modwright transporter and have a logitech touch and radio in other rooms networked. Nothing beats being able to use your phone or Ipad and select music to play in any room in the house - or outside. Once it's set up properly - it's bulletproof and so easy to use -- I've got a couple hundred CD's gathering dust --- but with about 1500 LP's -- I've recently invested in a good vinyl rig --- I'm still not convinced that it sounds better than the transporter (just different) -- but the convenience of a 200 song playlist -- can't be matched with any other format --- next step is to look at a good DAC to see if I can improve on the Modwright Transporter. For me -- there's no question that computer audio will be around for a long time |
Rgs92, no, I did not do it myself. Empirical Audio Legacy did it for me. He is a pro guy who also made my prototype Mac Mini and makes the TuneBank. He hopes ultimately to sell his units retail and to make this service available.
On the Exemplar eXpo T105 modified Oppo 105, I could play the SACDs that he had put on the TuneBank from that source and the same SACDs using the universal player. Those on the TuneBank sounded much better, but there are reasons. One, off the TuneBank I was playing with the filters moved up greatly and in DSD. I'm not sure what the SACDs were playing on the universal player. And two, the TuneBank doesn't have the errors of the optical drive. |
It's my understanding that you can't rip SACDs by yourself to a harddrive without going the out-of-production Sony PS3 route. Tbg, is this what you did? Thanks. |
Anyone listen to the Audiophile Vortexbox? It looks to be a simple solution for computer audio. |
AFAIK every computer buffers data in RAM before playback since music is stored on hard disk without timing as data and timing has to be always recreated. Hard disk has hefty cache buffer to start with. At the end everything comes to quality of final clock governing D/A conversion.
I like wireless transfer since it allows to discard everything on computer side of the wireless bridge. It also allows me to keep computer away from DAC. Computer speed, amount of RAM playback program etc. play no role. Clock on the DAC side can be greatly improved by reclocking. |
Joecasey, I enjoyed your last post, keep up the good work, I would like to learn all that I can, anything audio, cheers to you Joe. |
well I admitt TBG, I do not have any apple products, just PC, Dell top computer of the year I bought it, likly you do not have maintainance requirememnts that I have, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, all I can say is that I don't live where you do. I would hate to have to go back to relying on an optical reader with all its errors and other problems. |
08-10-14: Audioengr
"Steve, have you compare it to a Bryston BDP-2? Do you know if it buffers data in RAM before play?"
Of course. It is Linux based too, very skinny OS. It beats the Bryston. Bryston is pretty good though. I found a review ... going to checkout a DX. /*** Music isn’t streamed direct from the hard disk. That would result in increased noise and a wandering bit rate at the first step. Instead the Antipodes box uses scripts and MPD tweaks to ensure that music files are guided through the server in a way that keeps timing tight and minimises noise interference. The main scripts are managed and maintained by Andrew Gillis at Vortexbox with whom Jenkins has reaped the benefits of collaborative work scale. Further scripts are added by Jenkins to the final product. You could say that the Antipodes music server babies the signal at every step. The data is read from hard disk to RAM, buffering approximately 1GB. It is then clocked out of RAM to the output card where it is buffered and high-precision reclocked again before being sent to the DAC, which in turn buffers and reclocks it yet again in the—usually asynchronous—USB input. Even as UPnP server pushing digital audio out over its Ethernet connection, Jenkins claims less noise and better sound than a standard Vortexbox appliance. ***/ |
joecasey, why would you say no clue what I'm doing for?, Because I know what I'm doing with a computer, I have no computer problems!,I still say, computers are problematic by nature, never have I seen a computer, smart phone, tablet, lap top, that did not need clearing of task, defragment, etc..., My virus protection shows me when it blocks viruses here on audiogon every other day, so I do not understand that anyone would not believe computers are not problematic, cheers. |
"Steve, have you compare it to a Bryston BDP-2? Do you know if it buffers data in RAM before play?"
Of course. It is Linux based too, very skinny OS. It beats the Bryston. Bryston is pretty good though.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
08-09-14: Audiolabyrinth
all computers are problematic, It's the nature of computers, Boiling water is problematic if you have NO clue. I will also say I have none, that's because I maintance my computer daily to keep it running tip top, with all this, why would I spend more time with a computer and arrive with more problems from more useage?, I do not desire that at all. I run Windows and Linux and they just work. The only time I tinker is rip a new CD. What daily maintenance is REQUIRED and you doing? Computer is a just tool I use to improve quality life. I'm not a nerd and only tinker when required. When I play music, I just launch an app on the iPhone. Like Tbg said, I guess I too would have reservations if have all these computer problems and no clue what I'm doing. |
Audiolabyrinth, were I to have your problems, I guess I too would have reservations, but I have none. I have never had a virus. What problems I have are with internet connection because of provider issues. Perhaps it is because I have only Macs, seven of them, including one on my music server running in Windows 7 using JRiver MC 19.
I have well over 1000 cds and find what I seek in storage is a major put off for me. I also have 400 sacds with 100 of them in DSD on my server. If you compare sacds played off the shinny disc versus in DSD on the server, you would never go back.
I have no desire to take what can be read by the optical reader with many error corrections off a disc that I spent a half hour finding. Enjoy yourself! |
08-09-14: Tbg
Audiolabyrinth, I have no idea why you have, "to keep viruses and malware, hard drive clear of errors off the computer" troubles. I have none. Hmmm! Should I take a stab at it? I have some suspicions. Hmmm! |
all computers are problematic, It's the nature of computers, I will also say I have none, that's because I maintance my computer daily to keep it running tip top, with all this, why would I spend more time with a computer and arrive with more problems from more useage?, I do not desire that at all. |
Audiolabyrinth, I have no idea why you have, "to keep viruses and malware, hard drive clear of errors off the computer" troubles. I have none. It is so easy to have 900 albums from cds, in DSD, and from HD tracks at hand without having to look for them. |
Grannyring had an out standing computer audio set-up, sounded real good from what I am told, since he works with computers daily for a job, He decided to look for a cd-player that would give him an emotional sound and still have resolution, that would out compete the computer audio system he had in terms of simplicity, and not carrying work to home feel, I understand the simplicity of having a menu to walk around with having a computer audio set-up, But dealing with down loads, software, inferrior usb cables,a mac mini or whatever, this can be very taxing on alot of folks out there, I am, and so is grannyring computer literate, I myself find it a pain in the aXX to keep viruses and malware, hard drive clear of errors off the computer, so to not have those issues with a dac, transport, cd-player is the simplicity of spinning disc to me, I have knocked computer audio to much, I have come to terms to what ever makes that person happy, so be it, and in turn, they should give the same respect, everyone arrives diffrently on the path of audio. |
Actually, I posed the question to JA after having read every review of the Ayre and post concerning it I could find. I knew from his reviews that JA listed the Ayre as a source and that he had written about excellent quality audio downloaded from computer, and I do value his opinion among those of others. My question to JA was along the line has computer audio made the search for a superb disc player a no op.
Nearly all the equipment I've bought has been used, so it's usually not possible to listen before buying. But what was so annoying to me was the assumption, no assertion, that I bought anything based solely on a single opinion. That's too far, as are universal conclusions based on particular premises, e.g., all these are better than all those, a flaw in basic logic.
db |
Actually he asked my opinion as well and I am sure a few more people. Well, it that case, I totally understand. How dare I? I never saw your name in his post so I would DEMAND credit from him for the purchasing decision. Well maybe you're the special ONE. I knew we will finally agree! Again, I thought his point was clear. Again, I had a different interpretation. Who think he's the special one now? 08-08-14: Grannyring
Ha, you know how much I like to rip cd's! I would rather relax in a dentist
chair and have another crown put in :) what are you doing on a COMPUTER? Does you computer run off a CD real time? Get off the computer, go outside and get some exercise. |
My interpretation is his purchasing decision was solely base on JA's opinion with special emphasizes on JA as someone special. Actually he asked my opinion as well and I am sure a few more people. Again, I thought his point was clear. Asking Atkinson was more about the guy using the player himself as opposed to being someone special, which personally I think he is as far as someone who works for an audiophile magazine. I communicate with many professional reviewers but never base a purchasing decision on any ONE. Well maybe you're the special ONE. |
Ha, you know how much I like to rip cd's! I would rather relax in a dentist
chair and have another crown put in :) |
Dbphd's point to me was quite clear. My interpretation is his purchasing decision was solely base on JA's opinion with special emphasizes on JA as someone special. Bottom line is it's his $$ but I just find it humorous. I communicate with many professional reviewers but never base a purchasing decision on any ONE. Personally if I had the sizable collection of CDs and SACDs that Dbphd has I would still be playing the shiny discs as I would not find the amount of time it would take to rip them to a HD worth it. Grannyring volunteers. He needs the exercise. |
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I don't know what his motivations are for saying this, but I find it ridiculous. What makes you think he has any motivation here. He is simply stating an opinion. I happen to have heard Dbphd's system on a number of occasions and it is quite good. Asking John Atkinson a question doesn't make anyone a slave to Stereophile. I ask him questions too and take great interest in his measurements of components. BTW so does Roger Modjeski of Music Reference who happens to design some outstanding amplifiers and other components. Dbphd's point to me was quite clear. Some people prefer playing the shiny discs over dealing with the nuances of computer audio (which is far from perfect). So why not go for the best player you can afford and enjoy your music. Personally if I had the sizable collection of CDs and SACDs that Dbphd has I would still be playing the shiny discs as I would not find the amount of time it would take to rip them to a HD worth it. In which case I would still be using my CEC transport and Lessloss DAC. |
Dbphd, it's impossible to experience ALL in the whole world CD-players and yet, it's very good to have CD-players that reads everything like yours and never skip, because I didn't have such luck.
In DJ equipment domain it's very unwanted to have CD-player that may skip... simply unacceptible(act fast to mix with effects and switch to different CD/track!), but darn ..it happens there too! So there PC audio wins the market even for professional DJs.
I always thought that with invention of CD player we would not worry about scratches and vinyl surface noise but it turned out that often even little scratch on CD surface may have a chance for track to skip on certain CD-players. It never ever happened with any PC-audio playback even with cds that have no smooth spot left on the surface. |
Dbphd, hmmm, I didn't think I was sarcastic, but I do think you are ignorant. |
Czarivey writes, "One huge advantage of PC-audio is that it never skips even completely ###### up CDs." I would add that neither does my Ayre C-5xePM, Oppo BDP-105, or Sony XA5400ES.
The ignorant, sarcastic tone of the replies from Joecasey and TBG are what make me not want to post. Joecasey extends a post to the absurd; TBG generalizes to the point of making himself seem ridiculous -- I doubt he's experienced all disc players, all servers, or all vinyl needed to make such a blanket pronouncement.
db |
maybe I can read some stuff like that in the absolute sound, I just subscribed after many years of absence, I always get a kick out of something crazy that is talked about out of an audio magazine, keeps me from tring to post a comment, ha,ha, little humor!, the funny thing is, I did re-subscribe. |
One huge advantage of PC-audio is that it never skips even completely ###### up CDs. |
Joecasey, I would agree that a music server is convenient especially relative to vinyl and even a player. But I find players the lowest quality and music servers and vinyl very close together. I don't know what his motivations are for saying this, but I find it ridiculous. |
08-02-14: Dbphd
When I was thinking of a used Ayre C-5xeMP, I posed the question of this thread to John Atkinson, who lists the Ayre as one of his sources. His reply was that for convenience he uses computer audio; for high quality audio he uses the Ayre.
I bought a used Ayre C-5xeMP. I have an unused Mac Mini connected to the asynchronous USB port of an Oppo BDP-105. The HD Tracks software wouldn't download when I purchased a Bach piece that seemed interesting. A fiend who is a computer audio enthusiast couldn't get it to download either and I haven't followed up. Wow! John Atkinson. Mr. BIG. Now I'm convince. Computer audio is a BUST! Is Stereophile still in business? I want to subscribe again and make my purchase decisions SOLELY on their recommended list. |
Speavler, I now have most of my 400 sacds on my harddrive in DSD and play them in native double DSD. My HD tracks are also played in double DSD as are my 700 cds. I'm using JRiver MC19 and controlling my music server Mac Mini 2011 with a Macbook Pro. The Mac app Remote was much easier, but Mac has abandoned better music.
The MC19 affords the opportunity to play a cd at 44/16 or at double native DSD. You hear such more music with double DSD that I only do this to demonstrate and never for my information. |
I tried that route and built pretty hefty computer audio with HUGE bank of high-def downloads, great DAC with only difference that I did NOT sell my analogue setup!
Regardless of all that, I still listen to vinyl 95% and most of the time my computer audio sleeps and not engaged. Not even running stand-by.
So in case if you get tired, analogue will welcome you back for sure...:-) |
Aesthetix Romulus is killer! |
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I have a computer audio setup and still buy primarily used cd's, as high res downloads offer very marginal if any improvement to my ears. the benefit is being able to browse and cue up songs on your i-device without having to get up from your listening chair, create your own playlists, etc. I do still use physical discs for playing back multi-channel SACD's. |
Boy, some really great responses. I am going from a primarily analog, ( vinyl ) system to digital. Am working on doing computer but other than streaming from something like spottily I am struggling to understand the value of putting my music on a computer. Also, when I order a CD or a SACD I get a CD or SACD that is mine to do with what I want. When I get a down load I am far more restricted in what I can do with it, trade, sell etc, And the Cost is about the same. Perhaps I should look at a good stand alone player that also can be used as a separate DAC like an Esoteric k-05 or K-03.
Again, thanks for the responses. |
08-04-14: Nglazer
I am 63 and about 2 years ago transitioned from a transport-DAC combo to a Bryston BDP-1 digital player to a DAC (previously the PS Audio PWD MkII, now upgraded to Direct Stream - wow! but that's another post). The Bryston is controlled by laptop or iPad or iPhone. SQ audibly better than transport (CEC TL-1x, no slouch there); convenience factor far greater; and there are services who will load your CD collection on to HD's.
Never too old Bdp24!
Neal It's understandable as one ages, they are more set in their ways. I think the biggest factor is attitude. Easier to whine, make excuses and I'm surprise no one has compared computer audio to fighting in Iraq. Gotta go rip some CDs and get my daily exercise now. I can only do 1 CD per day before reaching anaerobic state. Goal is 2 in 6 months once I increase my anaerobic threshold. |
I am 63 and about 2 years ago transitioned from a transport-DAC combo to a Bryston BDP-1 digital player to a DAC (previously the PS Audio PWD MkII, now upgraded to Direct Stream - wow! but that's another post). The Bryston is controlled by laptop or iPad or iPhone. SQ audibly better than transport (CEC TL-1x, no slouch there); convenience factor far greater; and there are services who will load your CD collection on to HD's.
Never too old Bdp24!
Neal |
08-02-14: Audioengr
If you are not computer literate or don't want to take the time and effort to optimize a computer, just get one of the superb servers from Antipodes audio in New Zealand. Best sounding server you can buy IME. Then add your favorite USB DAC or a USB converter and ANY DAC. Very interesting product. Steve, have you compare it to a Bryston BDP-2? Do you know if it buffers data in RAM before play? |
Wow, Steve, those Antipodes Audio products are nice! For a buy it ans use it product I doubt one could do better. Thanks for heads-up!
-RW- |
Dbphd, yes hat happened at times to me also. In addition many SACDs
would not rip using XLD so they could not be part of my computer front
end. Lastly, I preferred the sound of WAV files over AIFF, but the
conversion was a hassle and you lose all the album art etc... Yikes! |
It could depend on your age. At mine(64), I'm done with changing over systems. I have a CD collection of somewhere around 7,000-8,000, and I ain't ripping them into a damn computer! I still have my LP collection too, numbering around 4,000 or so. I'm not ripping them either! I'm perfectly content with LP's and CD's---I'll spend the rest of the time I have left listening to the music on them, thank you very much. |
When I was thinking of a used Ayre C-5xeMP, I posed the question of this thread to John Atkinson, who lists the Ayre as one of his sources. His reply was that for convenience he uses computer audio; for high quality audio he uses the Ayre.
I bought a used Ayre C-5xeMP. I have an unused Mac Mini connected to the asynchronous USB port of an Oppo BDP-105. The HD Tracks software wouldn't download when I purchased a Bach piece that seemed interesting. A fiend who is a computer audio enthusiast couldn't get it to download either and I haven't followed up.
db |
Until I can try and afford something like the Antipodes (check out Darko's review http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/02/antipodes-audio-ds-reference-review-6moons/ & Steve's recommendations) I'll just add another +1 for Grannyrigs' insightful and welcome post. (Sorry about the long hyperlink but there's no way I know of to edit it. I even went to the Apple store and they were of no help, and slightly embarrased) All the best, Nonoise |
If you are not computer literate or don't want to take the time and effort to optimize a computer, just get one of the superb servers from Antipodes audio in New Zealand. Best sounding server you can buy IME. Then add your favorite USB DAC or a USB converter and ANY DAC.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I will also add, you are saying that a profound power cable has the same audio performance as the stock power cord that comes with a componet, there is no difference to me with what you are saying compaired to this statement here, cables make a differnce, you can believe what you want to, good luck on your future endeavors. |
wow!, this is like tring to say a car is a car, there is no difference between a ferrari and a kia, really!, can't make this up folks, if you never drove the ferrari, why comment on something you do not know about? |
08-02-14: Audiolabyrinth
Joecasey, Hi, I would like to bring to your attention that all the proof about any damn usb cable is inferior, however, the DLNA you are doing is better than usb cable!, Congrats!, To make this understood, there is NO true computer audio if you are going through a Dac,, what is a cd-player?, What is a Dac and a transport, mmm, Not tring to be funny here, A dac and a trans port is essentially a cd-player split in Half!, so, If any one uses a Dac in their computer set-up, they are truly running half computer audio!, I have run experiments many times of real computer audio useing the computers volume control to a reciever, intergrated amp, straight to an amp, ha, ha, Lousy to say the least!, now let's get to the profound part of the facts, first off, their will never be a $15,000.00 usb cable, The technology of usb does not allow for such technology!, I cannot come to terms as to why people believe cables do not make a difference, I can litterally put a $300.00 Yamaha cd-player up against any top flight computer audio source with a top usb cable, or DNLA to transport the audio, not fricken Data!, and use a profound interconnect like a Tara labs Zero Gold 1-meter interconnect and shockingly out-perform the computer audio, How do I know this, LOL!, I have done it and own the Damn cables to prove it!, sorry if I got frustrated here, It just is none since about tring to achieve world class audio with a half computer audio or true computer audio. Keep it coming. Can't make this stuff up, folks. LOL! |
Joecasey, Hi, I would like to bring to your attention that all the proof about any damn usb cable is inferior, however, the DLNA you are doing is better than usb cable!, Congrats!, To make this understood, there is NO true computer audio if you are going through a Dac,, what is a cd-player?, What is a Dac and a transport, mmm, Not tring to be funny here, A dac and a trans port is essentially a cd-player split in Half!, so, If any one uses a Dac in their computer set-up, they are truly running half computer audio!, I have run experiments many times of real computer audio useing the computers volume control to a reciever, intergrated amp, straight to an amp, ha, ha, Lousy to say the least!, now let's get to the profound part of the facts, first off, their will never be a $15,000.00 usb cable, The technology of usb does not allow for such technology!, I cannot come to terms as to why people believe cables do not make a difference, I can litterally put a $300.00 Yamaha cd-player up against any top flight computer audio source with a top usb cable, or DNLA to transport the audio, not fricken Data!, and use a profound interconnect like a Tara labs Zero Gold 1-meter interconnect and shockingly out-perform the computer audio, How do I know this, LOL!, I have done it and own the Damn cables to prove it!, sorry if I got frustrated here, It just is none since about tring to achieve world class audio with a half computer audio or true computer audio. |
